I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

I'm curious as to why the MM isn't broken down further for the printings between these two versions on the MM page, since the presence of non-white end-papers has clearly been a printing distinction for the PHB and DMG. I'm also curious about why/how this printing is rarer, since, again, it's the only one I've ever known (so therefore it must be common, right? ).

edit:  looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.

grodog wrote:I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

I'm curious as to why the MM isn't broken down further for the printings between these two versions on the MM page, since the presence of non-white end-papers has clearly been a printing distinction for the PHB and DMG. I'm also curious about why/how this printing is rarer, since, again, it's the only one I've ever known (so therefore it must be common, right? ).

edit: looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.

There is much confusion there, I think, because of the "3rd+" print.

I'd first "define" the 4th as a printing with all of the following:

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "4th Edition" on the copyright page

Can you confirm you're not looking at a 3rd+ (which is known to have red flyleaves):

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "3rd Edition" on the copyright page

If not, you might be the first person to positively verify that the red-flyleaf version of the 4th exists, and that's good news.  (It could be that previous sightings were actually 3rd+ and mis-reported, and it doesn't exist...I'm skeptical.)

As for the 5th, I made that mistake too.  :oops:

deimos3428 wrote:

grodog wrote:I found a 4th printing copy of the MM with red end papers last night, which I didn't previously know existed, since my 4th MM is white end papers. I initially thought that I had a discovery to report, given that I "knew" that all 4ths sported white end-papers, but, alas, after consulting the MM page it seems that the 4th printing can have either.

I'm curious as to why the MM isn't broken down further for the printings between these two versions on the MM page, since the presence of non-white end-papers has clearly been a printing distinction for the PHB and DMG. I'm also curious about why/how this printing is rarer, since, again, it's the only one I've ever known (so therefore it must be common, right? ).

edit: looks like my original "4th" is probably a 5th printing, but I won't have it in front of me to check the details until I return from CA.

There is much confusion there, I think, because of the "3rd+" print.

I'd first "define" the 4th as a printing with all of the following:

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "4th Edition" on the copyright page

Can you confirm you're not looking at a 3rd+ (which is known to have red flyleaves):

1. yellow lettering on the cover
2. black highlights on "Advanced D&D", no "TM"
3. the words "3rd Edition" on the copyright page

If not, you might be the first person to positively verify that the red-flyleaf version of the 4th exists, and that's good news. (It could be that previous sightings were actually 3rd+ and mis-reported, and it doesn't exist...I'm skeptical.)

As for the 5th, I made that mistake too.

I also have a 4th with red endpapers, just as you describe.  I've actually had another as well but sold it awhile back, I didn't realize there was anything special about them, whoops.

Mike B.

must be fairly common because I have 2 of em' also  :?

Howdy,


I believe there is a 4th print just prior to the one listed as a 4th print on the Acaeum. This 4th "minus" print should have the errata for the vampire included and the prices listed in the back catalog. I have seen a number of 4th prints and the answers always come back "has errata" and "does not have prices".

The 2nd Alpha DMG I own has the pages from the MM which include the errata for the vampire included and the prices listed in the back catalog.


Futures Bright,

Paul

Howdy,


Right!

3rd+ does not have errata but does have prices
4th-  has errata and has prices (according to my DMG 2nd Alpha)
4th   has errata and does not have prices

I don't know if the 4th- exists but there were printing plates for it in early August of 1979.


Futures Bright,

Paul

The 3rd + print matches the 3rd print on the points you listed deimos.

Mike

Howdy,

deimos3428 wrote:Turns out I have both a 3rd and a 4th, but no 3rd+.  :?

In comparing them, besides the prices/vampire errata:

On pg. 111: The 3rd lists the DMG as a future release, the 4th does not.

On pg. 112: In the last paragraph before the Gen Con ad, the 3rd has the price $2.00. The 4th omits this, making for a somewhat puzzling sentence:

"...For a complete listing of the entire line of TSR games and rules, send ($2.00) for our catalog."

Both 3rd & 4th contain the infamous "potpourri" line of the Gen Con ad as well, which is omitted in 5th and later prints.

I'd be interested in hearing what the 3rd+ has on those points, and also the DMG 2nd Alpha (or 4th-, if it exists!).

Only page 111 of the MM catalog is found in the DMG2A. It does list the DMG as a "Future Release". Thus,

As far as this and your other points, the catalog is the same in the 3rd, 3rd+, and the DMG2A (MM 4th-).


Futures Bright,

Paul

grodog wrote:Just to further complicate, things, however, my 3rd printing MM does include the Vampire errata, and does list prices, and lists the DMG as a future release :/

[*]p 111 - The DMG is a future release. No prices.
[*]p 112 - The potpourri line is present in the red fly leaf, not in my 5th.
[/list]

So, now I'm not sure whether there may be two or possibly three additional MM printings as yet uncataloged??? Working chronologically, they would be:

• my 3rd-+ (just before 3rd+), which does include the vampire errata (which isn't supposed to be present until the 4th printings), but otherwise matches a 3rd
• Paul's 4th- (per the DMG2A inserted MM price list page)
• my 4th with red flypapers; or is this just a standard 4th print, at this point---I've lost track???

You haven't complicated things at all, I think you've just found something very, very important.  :wink:

First, the "4th" with red flyleaves, nevermind that.  My mistake.  4th comes in both red and white versions, we'll never know for certain which one came first but I would assume red.  Was very embarrased that I suggested they might not exist and then when home and found one on my shelf!  :)

Much more interesting is your 3rd print.  I believe it is actually after the 3rd+, which does not have the errata, but before the 4th, which does.  

If this is correct, I think is the "4th-" that Paul was describing!  This print was theorized from the DMG2A, which had MM pages in it.  There was no reason to assume it belonged with the 4ths, rather than the 3rds, other than that it was after the 3rd+.  So I'd consider it to be a "3rd Gamma", or something, rather than a "4th-", if it states "3rd Edition" on the copyright page.

Anyway, very interesting.  Please confirm that I'm understanding it right.