bbarsh wrote:Now we are talking game mechanics. Crossbows and wizards. Nope. Doesn't matter what the situation. The non-weapon proficiency alone would be huge!
Deadlord36 wrote:Actually, you have Cleave wrong. It's much worse. If you KILL an opponent with a swing, it allows you to make an extra attack against another creature within range.And Great Cleave? Same thing, except as long as you keep killing creatures in 1 stroke, you can keep on cleaving! Sort of Like in Kung Pao!! Enter the Fist, when he runs horizontally inside the circle of guys, kicking each one in the face.3E is a joke.
Shingen wrote:Traveller wrote:Oh, and one last thing? Nobody here, with the possible exception of me, is poo pooing your choice of game. However, your pleas to try your game fall upon deaf ears. I'm sure many here have, and have decided against the game. Yet do you see them evangelizing the older systems like d20 Fantasy people such as yourself? Other than in this thread and perhaps one other, have you seen me even discuss Castles & Crusades? I try very hard to avoid peeing in the pool here because my experiences regarding Castles & Crusades as one of its playtesters have no place on a OD&D/AD&D/BXD&D collecting site. To me, d20 Fantasy has no place here either.I haven't asserted that. i have said some people are refusing to see it any different, even possible, without even trying it. I am not trying to evangelize, which is just ridiculous. I heard some players sya they didn't like d20, and attempted to correct inaccuracies, and try to get some people who may have been misinformed to look at it differently. And most people have been open minded, and willing to just say "I'm comfortable with what I got, but you make good points." You are the only one becoming so heated about it. No one has to evangelize the old systems to me, because I have them. Simple.I figured since this was a RP collectible site, people might play roleplaying games. But apparently, only talk about certain systems is acceptable.Whatever. Since most people have been cool, I feel this was a cool thread, because everyone experessed an opinion, and defended it, in good faith. But this overtly hostile gesture, telling me what has no place in this forum, sours me. I'm done talking about it. Sorry for polluting your forum with divergent thoughts.
Traveller wrote:Oh, and one last thing? Nobody here, with the possible exception of me, is poo pooing your choice of game. However, your pleas to try your game fall upon deaf ears. I'm sure many here have, and have decided against the game. Yet do you see them evangelizing the older systems like d20 Fantasy people such as yourself? Other than in this thread and perhaps one other, have you seen me even discuss Castles & Crusades? I try very hard to avoid peeing in the pool here because my experiences regarding Castles & Crusades as one of its playtesters have no place on a OD&D/AD&D/BXD&D collecting site. To me, d20 Fantasy has no place here either.
deimos3428 wrote:bbarsh wrote:Now we are talking game mechanics. Crossbows and wizards. Nope. Doesn't matter what the situation. The non-weapon proficiency alone would be huge!See, that's my point. I like class archetypes, but sometimes they don't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. Why shouldn't a magic-user, especially a higher level one, who has been in combat, seen crossbows used before, be able to try to fire one in a pinch? After all, a zero-level character could do it, maybe even without a penalty of some kind. It makes no sense at all for a DM to say "Magic-users can't use crossbows. It says so in the book." Now, sure, they're the geeks of the medieval world, so you might say they don't have the strength or technical skill, but that's what to hit penalties are for...Now clerics, that's a different story, because they have their god to deal with. "Thou shalt not useth a crossbow" makes sense, because if your god says something, you listen or get smited.
bbarsh wrote:deimos3428 wrote:See, that's my point. I like class archetypes, but sometimes they don't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. Why shouldn't a magic-user, especially a higher level one, who has been in combat, seen crossbows used before, be able to try to fire one in a pinch? After all, a zero-level character could do it, maybe even without a penalty of some kind. It makes no sense at all for a DM to say "Magic-users can't use crossbows. It says so in the book." Now, sure, they're the geeks of the medieval world, so you might say they don't have the strength or technical skill, but that's what to hit penalties are for...Now clerics, that's a different story, because they have their god to deal with. "Thou shalt not useth a crossbow" makes sense, because if your god says something, you listen or get smited. Without game mechanics you have no game. With that rational, any character who witnessed a thief open a lock for a long period of time could do the same...sure Mr. Wizard can pick up the crossbow and fire it ... say at a -90 to hit and a natural 20 equals a close miss...Weapon restrictions, as well as others, are there for a reason. 3.0+ put an end to that, I understand. Great for people who can't live within a rules structure. Not for me though; I can live with rules and restrictions that make a game work. The everthing for everybody game just holds no interest for me.
deimos3428 wrote:See, that's my point. I like class archetypes, but sometimes they don't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. Why shouldn't a magic-user, especially a higher level one, who has been in combat, seen crossbows used before, be able to try to fire one in a pinch? After all, a zero-level character could do it, maybe even without a penalty of some kind. It makes no sense at all for a DM to say "Magic-users can't use crossbows. It says so in the book." Now, sure, they're the geeks of the medieval world, so you might say they don't have the strength or technical skill, but that's what to hit penalties are for...Now clerics, that's a different story, because they have their god to deal with. "Thou shalt not useth a crossbow" makes sense, because if your god says something, you listen or get smited.
bbarsh wrote:Without game mechanics you have no game. With that rational, any character who witnessed a thief open a lock for a long period of time could do the same...sure Mr. Wizard can pick up the crossbow and fire it ... say at a -90 to hit and a natural 20 equals a close miss...Weapon restrictions, as well as others, are there for a reason. 3.0+ put an end to that, I understand. Great for people who can't live within a rules structure. Not for me though; I can live with rules and restrictions that make a game work. The everthing for everybody game just holds no interest for me.
Deadlord36 wrote:Exactly. There is nothing wrong with a mage using a bow in desperation, but there IS something wrong when he can be proficient in it.
(Why on earth would your fighter WANT to sit at a door playing with tumblers when he can just bash it in?) based on character class and desire.
bbarsh wrote:Umm...I was being sarcastic about the lock picking thing...Just pointing out the rational that was used to say a wizard who watched his fighter pal use could do the same.And then there was the old standard..."these are not rules, just guidelines" Follow the yellow brick road munchkins, because that one leads to munchkinville.Sure, some rules can be adjusted to fit a specific situation, but the point of having rules is to set a parameter. Parameters can bend from time to time, but what I am seeing is downright destruction. I have no problem with people changing rules and having fun...that is what it is all about. But don't come to me and say your playing "X" game. Home rules of "X" game, maybe. But when I see Clerics swinging swords, magic users blasting away with crossbows, etc...it is not AD&D.
Deadlord36 wrote:PM? Just post it. That is what a forum is all about.I didn't see anything to take offense over in your post.
bbarsh wrote:I have no problem with people changing rules and having fun...that is what it is all about. But don't come to me and say your playing "X" game. Home rules of "X" game, maybe. But when I see Clerics swinging swords, magic users blasting away with crossbows, etc...it is not AD&D.