Dragon Pass the Board Game
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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:05 am 
 

Fanatsy War Gaming with armies using counters on a large Game Board.
Published by Chaosium, Inc. in 1984.

The game is a direct decendant of White Bear and Red Moon.
I recently purchased a copy of the game on E-Bay.

In the listing the Seller said:
This game has been played gently and is in excellent condition.
All contents and like new!
Pieces have been punched but have been carefully organized in baggies.
The outer housing box is damage free, just very minor shelf wear.


I bid on this listing based on the two pictures provided and the sellers statements as to condition.
This seemed to be a VERY NICE box set with punched counters.
I bid on the listing assuming honesty from the seller.

It is possible the damage was done during shipping, but I saw no damage on the shipping box.
I still have the shipping box with sellers address on it and it looks new.

Thus I arrive at the purpose of this post:
Not using the final bid price (Not relevent to my question)
What is the value of the difference in the condition of the box as stated in the listing and actual condition as indicated below?
In percentages....
No change in value?
10%?
20%?
30%?
More?

Here are pictures of the games box top I took immediately after taking it out of the shipping box (USPS Priority Box).
Every corner is torn from the top to the bottom.
ALL OF THEM.
The box bottom also has minor tearing at all four corners.

Image

Image

Image

Image


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:27 am 
 

->  
** expired eBay auction **




Common enough game, so you'd probably be doing better to return the set and look for a better one IMO. Unless you just want to play the game and not mind about not having a better condition set for the "collection", that is.



Their return conditions are "7 day money back, buyer pays return shipping" and whereas insured media mail doesn't cost a lot it shouldn't be too much hassle to see whether they're willing to negotiate on a negative feedback (which, thankfully, they can no longer return ;)).


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:54 am 
 

I would probably say that the box condition drops the price around 40%.  It is what most people first look at when determining condition.

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:06 pm 
 

I agree with Mars, I would discount maybe 30-40% with the box in that condition.

I suspect that the box was in that condition before he sent it. That photo seems to be taken in a way to hide the flaws (slight angle from the bottom up, with the bottom edge not in frame).

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:36 pm 
 

Return it and neg him unless you get a full refund


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:01 pm 
 

Minor shelf wear?  That's ridiculous.  You should be able to return it at seller's expense for such a poor description.  Broken box corners should always be noted for boardgame descriptions.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:58 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Return it and neg him unless you get a full refund


Damn, Jeff. Not get your coffee this morning? :D


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:28 pm 
 

IIRC, I remember seeing that auction and noticing the ripped corners. Are they in the pics?


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:04 pm 
 

Whale Tagger wrote:IIRC, I remember seeing that auction and noticing the ripped corners. Are they in the pics?


Faro posted the link.
I was not planning to out the seller, but there it is.
My intent was to get some idea of what this item is really worth in the condition it IS in, compared to what it WOULD have been worth if it was in the condition described in the listing and as shown the photos provided.


** expired eBay auction **


No pictures showing the damaged box and seller stated the following in the short description...

This game has been played gently and is in excellent condition.
All contents and like new!
Pieces have been punched but have been carefully organized in baggies.
The outer housing box is damage free, just very minor shelf wear.


"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:10 pm 
 

I'd ship that thing back. I don't think you'll be able to post feedback after you receive a paypal refund.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:11 pm 
 

I have messaged the seller THREE times now with no responses.
(An no I have NOT threatened Fraud).


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:25 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:I have messaged the seller THREE times now with no responses.
(An no I have NOT threatened Fraud).


Remember, flight attendants can't check their email while airborne. He could be suffering from jet lag, too.
:)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:38 pm 
 

Wow, that dude went to a lot of trouble to hide the torn corners.  I smell a rat.

I'd still try to work something out, giving the seller a reasonable amount of time to reply. If not, you always hold the power of negs/bad DSRs.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:43 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Wow, that dude went to a lot of trouble to hide the torn corners.  I smell a rat.

I'd still try to work something out, giving the seller a reasonable amount of time to reply. If not, you always hold the power of negs/bad DSRs.

Mike B.

What he said.
Give him time to see if he's willing to work something out, then file a PayPal claim for significantly not as described. Especially if there is the possibility that the seller had to take photos from a specific angle in order to specifically avoid showing the damege to the box. The seller has also specifically lied in the description which IS fraud.

I'd give him the opportunity to claim damaged in the mail, and compensate you, and if you're not satisfied, go to PayPal with a claim for not as described.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:19 pm 
 

$51 is a premium price as well.  I sold my near mint unpunched copy of Dragon Pass a couple of years ago for about $25 IIRC.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:40 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:... then file a PayPal claim for significantly not as described.


Now that I had a chance to look at the actual listing, I would do the above right now.

That will get this guy's attention. Simpy making the claim is just that. The seller should respond to your emails and then you can work it out and remove the paypal claim.

There could always be a reasonable explaination - he shipped the wrong copy, whatever. But the picture box is certainly carefully placed to hide the split corners...


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:44 pm 
 

It is the same copy - first thing I checked and my main reason for posting the auction link. ;)
Whale Tagger wrote:IIRC, I remember seeing that auction and noticing the ripped corners. Are they in the pics?

Just the general wear to the top and edges. I've had boxes rip in transit before where those were flimsy and stacked with other heavy items inside but that doesn't seem to fit the bill here.

Whale Tagger wrote:My intent was to get some idea of what this item is really worth in the condition it IS in, compared to what it WOULD have been worth if it was in the condition described in the listing and as shown the photos provided.

The largest hit was already taken IMO (punched vs. unpunched) and the box damage is secondary given that it's a relatively common game and easy to replace the box.
If it genuinely was bought for play and you think it's worth armtwisting for a ~$15 discount, fair enough, but if it's meant to be a "collectible" I still think you'd be better off returning and holding out for an unpunched box - and those do turn up at around the same price as was paid.

Are all the counters present and correct?


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:35 pm 
 

bbarsh wrote:
Now that I had a chance to look at the actual listing, I would do the above right now.

That will get this guy's attention. Simpy making the claim is just that. The seller should respond to your emails and then you can work it out and remove the paypal claim.

There could always be a reasonable explaination - he shipped the wrong copy, whatever. But the picture box is certainly carefully placed to hide the split corners...

Yep.
Open a dispute in the PayPal dispute console.

Note that this IS NOT a PayPal claim. What it is is a forced forum in which you write your message to him and he is obliged to respond and everything can be read by PayPal. You can agree a settlement and close the dispute, or if you want to you can then escelate the dispute to an actual claim. But the seller CAN'T ignore the issue. He has to respond or he automatically loses his case. And he is prompted to respond by PayPal freezing the funds in his PayPal account or (if he's already removed the funds) preventing him from using his PayPal account until he's deposited the funds to be frozen. So it disables his PayPal/eBay experience until your money is safe with PayPal.

So open a dispute with PayPal on the transaction where you paid him. You can always begin with... I've had to open this dispute because my messages do not appear to be getting to your inbox. I received the package and...

Don't let him dupe you with 'drop the claim and I'll send you a refund/settle this some other way.', or 'I can'd do a partial refund until you close the dispute because my funds are frosen'. That's horseshit. Once you cancel the dispute he can stiff you and you have no way of ever opening a dispute again. It's the only hold you have over him. Respond with 'refund my money and the dispute will close automatically' or 'refund me $25 and I'll cancel the dispute'.

Good luck, J. Keep us informed.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:44 pm 
 

absolutely Gnat, those original pics are definatlely taken to hide the corner damage...  :roll:

open a claim and neg him if he doesn't offer to resolve it quickly. Clearly that is more than 'shelf wear'!!


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:35 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Wow, that dude went to a lot of trouble to hide the torn corners.  I smell a rat.

I'd still try to work something out, giving the seller a reasonable amount of time to reply. If not, you always hold the power of negs/bad DSRs.

Mike B.


Yes, the pictured box top looks real nice does it not?
And the second picture has the box top in the far distance, with the sides, corners and end covered by the box bottom turned up-side down and the game board, etc..

The Box I got also looks ok if looking at the same angle as the featured picture..
But the rest of the box sucks, as you can see from other pictured angles....

What pray tell is a reasonable waiting period as a response time frame?
Listing states returns within 7 days of delivery.
Have written the seller three times now and still no response.
faro wrote:..... it's meant to be a "collectible" I still think you'd be better off returning and holding out for an unpunched box - and those do turn up at around the same price as was paid.


Yes, it was meant as a collectable, even with punched counters, I THOUGHT the box was in great condition, based on the pic and the description it SHOULD have been.

faro wrote:.....Are all the counters present and correct?


I have no idea.
I suppose I will have to research on Board GAME geek again.
But IIRC at one time in the past, I tried that with this game but had no success as to exact counter numbers/types, etc.

EDIT::::  Just found pics of the 2 uncut Counter Sheets at Board GAME Geek ...


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
  
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