Sutherland Art - What's the True Value?
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:17 pm 
 

This is the original art from the cover of Dragon Magazine #12.  What do you folks think?  Worth something?

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 4:47 pm 
 

Centurion13 wrote:This is the original art from the cover of Dragon Magazine #12.  What do you folks think?  Worth something?

[ Image ][ Image ]

Centurion13


Very cool!!



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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 6:02 pm 
 

Centurion13 wrote:This is the original art from the cover of Dragon Magazine #12.  What do you folks think?  Worth something?

[ Image ][ Image ]

Centurion13


Yes it is worth something PM me if you want to talk about it :lol:


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:03 pm 
 

Just a suggestion, get a second and third opinion before you even consider selling it...otherwise you may regret it.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 7:13 pm 
 

PurpleDragon wrote:Just a suggestion, get a second and third opinion before you even consider selling it...otherwise you may regret it.

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I can e-mail some friends and try and get some opinions, I do not know vintage prices that well.  Working on it!

8)


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:21 pm 
 

I'm betting you would get at least $500 for it if you put it on ebay and advertized it here.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 8:25 pm 
 

myalbinogorilla wrote:I'm betting you would get at least $500 for it if you put it on ebay and advertized it here.

I buzzed TSRArt to see what his opinion is...it is hard to say it has nostagia but the medium is not oil etc....so, it is beyond my knowledge, so I am passing the buck.  We will see if he stops in I have found Pat to be helpful, nice and very knowledgeable.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:19 pm 
 

Well, I WAS going to sell it to Scott for $175, but it has been over two weeks since he said he'd mailed the money order, and he doesn't seem anxious to return my emails....so I've nixed the deal.  If by chance the money does roll in, I will return it to him unopened.

$500?  That's a bit of change, what?  The painting is in inks and color pencil and a splash of watercolor (don't quote me on this).  

Do miniatures count as art?

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:29 pm 
 

Centurion13 wrote:Do miniatures count as art?


Sure.

To get the fairest (ie highest) price for the painting, you should put it up for auction on eBay and put up a note in the Classfieds section here letting us know.  
I'd imagine it would go for $500 but there's only one way to find out...  :wink:

  


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 10:10 pm 
 

Thanks for the heads-up, Hal . . . .

Well, the last two vintage TSR covers that I sold were about two years ago. I sold the Roslof cover for "Queen of the Demonweb Pits" for $1500 and the cover for "Descent into the Depths of the Earth" for $2000. So you can kinda figure from there . . . . naturally, this piece is neither as important nor as well rendered as either of those pieces, but it oughta help everyone ballpark something.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:15 pm 
 

And to clarify... I'm not the "Scott" he's talking about!

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2004 11:34 pm 
 

Just finished talking to Dave Sutherland's Mom.  He doesn't want to talk to anyone at all, but she agreed to relay a message to him.  I wished him well, but I don't think it will matter much.  She says he is staying by himself, is sick, and is not going to get better.  My guess is Type II diabetes, and that's probably only the start.  

He still has the art for the original DMG and "A Paladin in Hell", as far as I know.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:01 am 
 

Centurion13 wrote:Just finished talking to Dave Sutherland's Mom.  He doesn't want to talk to anyone at all, but she agreed to relay a message to him.  I wished him well, but I don't think it will matter much.  She says he is staying by himself, is sick, and is not going to get better.  My guess is Type II diabetes, and that's probably only the start.  

He still has the art for the original DMG and "A Paladin in Hell", as far as I know.

Cent


Hope DCS gets better, though I think we all realize that the time is coming when some of the old pioneers of D&D may be leaving us in the not-so-distant future.   :cry:

And I hate to bring this up but please let him know how much the cover art of the DMG means to a lot of people.  It belongs in a museum... maybe Paul Allen can buy it for a crazy sum and put it into his new Sci-fi museum in Seattle.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:10 am 
 

Hope DCS gets better, though I think we all realize that the time is coming when some of the old pioneers of D&D may be leaving us in the not-so-distant future.   :cry:


If you do speak to him wish him well from his fans and I agree with you, I worked with some of the classic animators and have some cool pieces from them and it breaks me up when I hear one is ill or has passed, I hope they (like DCS) realize how much joy they brought us.


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 3:23 am 
 

His Mom sounded as though Dave had cut off all contact with members of his family.  I recall from conversations with him that he did not get on well with his ex-wife or other members of his family, and this was in late 1997.  He moved to Nebraska in December 1997, and in March 1998, I heard he'd gone to Driving School for tractor trailers and was doing that for a living.  

His Mom made it clear he didn't want to talk to anyone about his illness or anything else - I presume that includes his artwork, if he still has it.  I must say that it was a spectacular sight, seeing the entire painting of the DMG cover!   He took that and precious little else with him when he left.  I still have his resume sheet somewhere - it showed the entire painting, along with "A Paladin in Hell" and some other work he thought was representative of what he could bring to TSR under the WOTC banner.

He also was a sculptor of no little talent.  He sculpted three Ogre Magi miniatures for TSR back in the early 90s, and when they decided not to make them, he had a coworker crank out 50 each of these minis.  They were put up for sale at a local gaming shop (the now-defunct Fantasy Realm), and I have a friend who got a bunch.  I have one of the pewter masters, as well as two of the lead versions.  I have never *seen* Ogre Magi miniatures, so these are probably pretty unusual.

I also have a watercolor and ink work done by Dave of a town.  Don't know what it was for, but the detail is pretty impressive.  Here is a portion that I scanned:

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:30 am 
 

This is all very cool!!


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:57 am 
 

Centurion13 wrote:I heard he'd gone to Driving School for tractor trailers and was doing that for a living.  

His Mom made it clear he didn't want to talk to anyone about his illness or anything else - I presume that includes his artwork, if he still has it.  I must say that it was a spectacular sight, seeing the entire painting of the DMG cover!   He took that and precious little else with him when he left.  

I also have a watercolor and ink work done by Dave of a town.  Don't know what it was for, but the detail is pretty impressive.  Here is a portion that I scanned:

[ Image ]


That's a very nice watercolor of the town.  
It's amazing that he ended up driving tractor trailers when he had such a keen eye for FRP art.  It's kinda like Trampier driving a taxi these days.  I wonder if Tramp knows how much those old Wormy's would be worth now.  Then again TSR probably got the originals for them and threw them in the trash.   :?
I hope that DMG cover is being well-taken care of somewhere.  How large is the original?

  


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:26 pm 
 

I watched Dave from the day he attended the "gala" re-opening of Fantasy Realm at its second location, to the day he drove away in his overstuffed car.  I rarely saw him smile.  He told me about a little of the 22 years at TSR, how he'd been in various positions of authority, but had ultimately turned away from them to pursue his craft.  Kinda reminds me of myself, in the Navy.  And just like the Navy, he eventually ended up working for "leaders" who focused on very little other than getting to a position of authority and abusing it for the gratification of their egos.  

Not to say they were the only ones in charge there.  But I guess Gary Gygax' family had some real issues, and that made it easier for the "empire builders" to play the political games and esconce themselves in places where they made darn sure nothing could be done without their say-so.

And so it came about one day, that TSR couldn't pay the bills and the distibutors became leery of the company's spending money on stupid, half-baked projects that flattered one empire-builder or another, but made no money at all (ask me about the Spelljammer commercials, done in stop-motion animation).  Then WOTC swooped in with an offer; trim your fat and we'll give you X dollars.  By this time, the empire builders were the primary decision-makers, and stood to profit most by a sale, so they fired employees like crazy.  And then, with little left but the creative team for 3rd Ed. and the vast intellectual property rights, they handed it over to WOTC for a handsome sum.

Of course, Dave felt betrayed by all this.  Never mind that he'd made his bed over the years by refusing to learn effective ways of dealing with the politicians.  What did he expect?  Of course, this realization might have been a good part of his depression.  They did the predictable - they used him, then used him up, then fired him.  All those years of putting himself into his work came back to bite him, in the form of the American tradition for "job=value as a person"; he was suddenly worthless.  

He had no way of protesting - 22 years of service?  All the things he'd accomplished?  Who would he go to, to protest?  That stuff meant nothing to his bosses.  They thought he was a fool, and made no secret of their lack of respect.  After all, if he *wasn't* a fool, he'd be in charge, right?  You're all familiar with the Dilbert strip?  Well, the pointy-haired boss is not made up.  He really exists - a wealthy, self-satisfied combination of PhD, ego and wanton stupidity.  And far from being an object of derision - as he is in the strip - there are legions of ambitious people who will do anything to be just like the pointy-haired boss.  

And Dave worked for these kinds of people.  They are like floating turds - they always seem to be around, and they always rise to the top.  Of course, he had problems at home.  His wife was sorta warped by childhood molestation, from what I gathered.  And when he was fired, she promptly divorced him and took the kids.  He still had to support them, though.  So he had to get a job.  So he put on his "game face" and presented his resume to WOTC.  

Six months passed and no word.  It wasn't that they said 'no', it was that they didn't say anything at all.  As the time passed, he became more and more reclusive (although he entertained me and John when we came over) and more depressed.  There finally came a day when he wouldn't anwer the door, and when the manager finally opened it, Dave was there, looking like hell, with beer cans everywhere.  Well, he moved to another apartment and I got him a computer for working with, but he'd already decided to move on.  He gave us his bookcase, with most of the books, as well as some artwork, miniatures, and his entire collection of TSR materials he'd worked on from over the years.  I even got his drafting table.  Then he drove off for Nebraska.

I sold the collection, less a few pieces, for about half its listed value (about $600) and he split the money with me.   I have some of the artwork I commisioned from him over that summer, but Dave is gone from gaming forever.  He was betrayed - by others and by himself - and I can't blame him for never wanting to look back.  I don't give much thought to the Navy these days, even after 22 years, and I got out last August!

Yeah, this is the story Dave told me, and maybe it ain't the whole truth.  Or maybe it's just the truth from his point of view.  Only a masochist paints himself as a complete failure without wincing and trying to hide *some* blame.  Let's just say "Lord love him and grant him peace", and let it go at that.  And maybe look at where *we* are, and see if the same thing isn't happening to us.  People don't change.  There's a lesson here.

Cent

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:50 pm 
 

Wow.  :(



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Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 2:59 pm 
 

Wow, indeed.  

If you ever speak to him again please let him know that his artwork meant, and still means, a great deal to a lot of people.

  
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