Early Dungeons, Especially Issue 6
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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:50 am 
 

ScketreWhisp wrote:Bombadil... some items like the PotVQ I place on eBay at a higher price not to sell, but for "advertisement" since very rare items seem to draw a crowd


Yeah, the Missus swears by expensive shiny things (plus the Power 9) to draw in people at Magic tournaments.

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:58 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
Really?  Wow, LUCKY US!   :roll:

Mike B.

Hi Mike,
Why don't you go hang out with Sea to Sky Games, because he was such a swell guy that you vouched for too. :roll:


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:03 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Kingofpain89 wrote:
 So the Coug tried to "corner" the H1 market a few years back.  Did it work?  No....and if Doug were actually trying to corner the market on Dragon mags it wouldnt work with that either.  I dont know what Doug scored on his SAT's but I guarantee he isnt that stupid.


Was he able to successfully corner the market on H1? No, you are right he wasn't.  that said, do you honestly believe that his continuous jacking up the price on them has not had an affect on the value of them even still today?  You bet your ass it has.  Cougarrinard is one of the primary reasons that complete H1s typical exceed $100 at auction even today.  Its not the only reason albiet, but its a big one.   There are several other comparable modules out there with counters including B10 which may in fact be borh harder to find complete then H1 and is a superior adventure by just about anyone's standards and yet consistantly falls well short of the $100 range in auctions.  The common denomintor in this is Cougar and not much else.



I was selling H1's for $100 10 years ago, before Coug had bought his three houses and grew man boobs.  The "common denominator" is SCARCITY of COMPLETE product.  H1 came in that crappy skinny box (like no other TSR product every published before or since) that is ALWAYS crushed, sometimes even in the shrink; it included counters, often missing or separated;  buildings that were supposed to be cut up, and supported a system (Battlesystem) that never became popular or caught on with the gaming public.  You couldn't SCRIPT a better instant collectible than a complete set of H1 Bloodstone Pass!  I have been selling on the internet since 1994 and in that entire time, H1 has been one of the most highly sought after AD&D collectibles ever.  Cougie could have never existed (wishful thinking) and it would still go for $100.
 And to say that something Coug did over a year ago is still having pull in the market just doesn't make sense.  If he isn't bidding them up, then the H1's are getting what the market dictates. Whether or not it's a "good" module (highly subjective anyway) has no bearing on what it will bring in the marketplace...ST1 and most of the Wee Warriors stuff is crap, as is a lot of the "collectible" stuff out there, yet it goes for high prices based on perception.  In the case of H1, it's even a little bit of reality as it's damn hard to get one of these in complete condition when everyone else that needs one is bidding against you. Should B10 be worth more? Probably.  Is it a Coug plot? Doubtful.
 The point is, it's damn hard to manipulate the prices on the market on anything that's not a super rare. Cougs attempted corner of the H1 market didn't change prices except for the short run.  Creepy's attempted manipulation (pay twice what something is worth and then try to sell it for four times what it's worth) was both laughable and pathetic.  Doug's buying up of Dragon #1s for over the "set" price may be an investment; I know I had it pegged as a "rising star" the minute Dragon magazine announced their cancellation.  Personally, I don't know that I would invest in Dragon #1 to the extent Doug has....do I wish I had 4-5 stashed away?  You bet.  Investments in collectibles see the most return when you can puchase an UNDERVALUED product and sell it for the maximum.  Right now, certain collectible RPG items are NOT undervalued IMO....while stuff like Dragon #1s, White Boxes, certain SW items, are.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to see both Dragon #1 and a white box go regularly for $300 in the near future...without any sort of market manipulation.  We can even get into the entire "Why does Dungeon #1 go for so much?" when it's one of the more common mags of the entire run (more perception there) but it's not important unless someone starts buying them all up anyway.
   The fact is that this is a pissing contest between you and Doug and always has been (your first post concerning him way back when kind of tipped it off) and has nothing to do about market manipulation or whatever  I honestly don't know who you are thinking you are helping by harping on the fact he's buying up Dragon #1s....it's a far cry from spotting shillers and thieves on Ebay.  The fact is most of us would, given the chance, take advantage ofa market to buy low and sell high.  Right now, I wish I could, but it's just not in the cards.
  If I was looking for a Dragon #1 right now, Imight be pissed off (as I'm sure King is in his quest for certain Traveller items), but I guarantee I'd find one. Anyone paying an inflated price for anything doesn't have the patience to be a good collector anyway.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:12 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:Hi Mike,
Why don't you go hang out with Sea to Sky Games, because he was such a swell guy that you vouched for too. :roll:


Not even germane to the discussion...man, you are slipping....well, then again he was ANOTHER guy you had a pissing contest with on the forum.  I'm starting to see a common denominator here...

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:20 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I'm starting to see a common denominator here...

Mike B.


You're right of course. It's funny though that the common denominator here seems to be you keep "vouching" for people who aren't turning out to be so great....


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:25 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
You're right of course. It's funny though that the common denominator here seems to be you keep "vouching" for people who aren't turning out to be so great....


Mike is a top shelf dealer, fair and HONEST. This comment is crap :evil:


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:31 am 
 

Badmike wrote:  
I honestly don't know who you are thinking you are helping by harping on the fact he's buying up Dragon #1s.  
Mike B.


Of course you don't.  You view people who drive the prices as being good for your business. As a matter of fact you love to see this crap happen, as it not only allows you to get the positive end result of higehr prices without having to be the "bad guy" by doing it yourself.  You know you claim to have the hobby's best interest in mind all the time, so since thats the case can you please explain how its good for anyone and I mean anyone else for one person to buying up all the Dragon #1s?


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:50 am 
 

This forum needs a War Room. :)


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:52 am 
 

serleran wrote:This forum needs a War Room. :)


maybe just a truce :!:


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:05 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:

Of course you don't.  You view people who drive the prices as being good for your business. As a matter of fact you love to see this crap happen, as it not only allows you to get the positive end result of higehr prices without having to be the "bad guy" by doing it yourself.  You know you claim to have the hobby's best interest in mind all the time, so since thats the case can you please explain how its good for anyone and I mean anyone else for one person to buying up all the Dragon #1s?




I don't apologize for higher prices...what would be the point? It's out of my control since I have neither the means nor ability to raise them. Why don't you just be mad about the rising price of gasoline instead of investing in oil companies and enjoying the view?  Or buy an electric car?  Or invest in biofuels?  This isn't socialism or communism...I can make a profit and not have to feel bad about it...and I usually don't. Unlike those that claim they only sell items for "what the market will bear" yet somehow don't REFUND extra money spent for something that went over what the item should bring on the market.  Shouldn't that lucky seller correct the mistake and restore order to the marketplace by givng back to the clueless buyer?  :?



  Looking out for the hobby and investing/making money off it aren't mutually exclusive.  Every collectible item has promoters in it's hobby, and people making money off it, and they are the same in some cases.  I don't care for the 1930s proletariat attitude I should feel "guilty" making money....if gaming items are going up in price, great for the hobby AND my business. And no, I"m not sitting on any giant horde of investment-potential gaming booty waiting to make my fortune.  But the more people buying from reputable dealers is better for everyone (hobby, collectors, gamers) in the long run.



  The same wolf cries were heard when people were buying up white boxes, and R series, and H1s, yet interestingly the market corrects itself. If the item is truly rare, it continues to go up in price. If it's just a market fluctuation, it settles back down to where it should be.



    Brian, I really forsee a very upsetting next few years for you as prices continue to rise on collectibles in the RPG market, as the genie isn't going back in the bottle here. You can continue to complain about rising prices and forlornly wish for the "good old days" or realize the hobby has reached a maturity that occured with such collectibles as baseball cards, comics and pulp magazines.  I dabbled in the last two both before, during and after the collectible aspect reached what is going on in RPGS right now.  Like you, on the forums I lurked and posted on and in the collecting circles I ran in there were several who fought tooth and nail to keep their hobby "pristine".  It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now.  



  So rising prices on Dragon 1's are good for anyone owning a Dragon #1 (obviously) that wants to sell it, as it's finally reached a piece of it's potential; it's good for those owning any of the first year or so of Dragon, as a matter of fact, that need or want to sell; it's good for the hobby as a whole for prices to rise (including someone like The Collector's Trove who will continue to benefit from the market by getting high prices for RPG goodies); it's good for the high fathers of our hobby, don't they deserve to cash in? (what would be paid for Kuntz, Hendryks, Sutherland, etc auctions if no one cared?);  it's good for collectors themselves...that's right, because for every high price paid for a Ghost Tower or Lost Tamoachaon or Wee Warriors item, another old school gamer says "Hey, I have one of those in a box in my parents house, I need to sell it"...it brings out items that may never have seen the light of day. No one is going to dig into their old basement for a gaming item going for a few bucks on ebay...but when copies are selling for $300? Suddenly more appear. We've all seen it happen.  Interestingly the comic industry went through such a shakeup many years ago.  At one time there were estimated to only be a handfull of "key"issue comics such as Action #1, Detective #39, and All Star Comics #1.  Due to publicity from high auction prices, numbers of verifiable issues for a lot of these have DOUBLED in the last 20 years!  Higher prices in some cases ARE good for the hobby as a whole.



And btw I had a somewhat similar reaction at this year's Gencon auction when the owner of Troll and Toad was sitting right in front of the Acaeum members, buying up stuff HIS OWN COMPANY WAS AUCTIONING!  But then again I also beat him out on a few items because I was willing to go a little higher, and I noticed he didn't bid at all on any of the rares (he wasn't going to be able to buy them and sell them fora profit, not at what Blackmoor was paying he wasn't!) Anyway while I think it was bad form on his part...what can you do.  If I wanted any of the items I could have outbid him...as everyone else is welcome to do when someone tries to "corner" the market on a valuable gaming item.



No one is prevented from owning a Dragon #1. I can think of 4-5 ways I'd go about getting one right now if I REALLY had to have one under "market" price, including advertisng on forums, advertising in my local gaming store, contacting online game or comic companies, monitoring ebay BINs, etc.  We might as well rail against Degassy for buying up all the Collector's Trove stuff....or anyone buying up stuff we want. For myself having made a considerable investment in gaming stuff through the last couple of decades, I think it's neat to see my once "worthless" gaming collection accumlate value and hopefully contribute to my car/house/grandson's college fund someday.



Mike B.


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Last edited by Badmike on Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:15 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
You're right of course. It's funny though that the common denominator here seems to be you keep "vouching" for people who aren't turning out to be so great....


I think a lot of people in the forum know what the "common denominator" is...and it isn't me vouching for them.  Cmon, man, you need to step back a bit sometimes, it's not just me that gets tired of the ridiculous pissing contests.  It just seems there is one person that is ALWAYS at the epicenter of these things. And when someone is always shouting, you start to tune them out....

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:20 am 
 

Badmike wrote:

    Brian, I really forsee a very upsetting next few years for you as prices continue to rise on collectibles in the RPG market, as the genie isn't going back in the bottle here. You can continue to complain about rising prices and forlornly wish for the "good old days" or realize the hobby has reached a maturity that occured with such collectibles as baseball cards, comics and pulp magazines.  I dabbled in the last two both before, during and after the collectible aspect reached what is going on in RPGS right now.  Like you, on the forums I lurked and posted on and in the collecting circles I ran in there were several who fought tooth and nail to keep their hobby "pristine".  It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now.  


Except I don't care if the prices continue to rise.  :?  As a matter of fact with all the crap I am currently sitting on, I would benefit from it.  The only thing that I care about is the outright in your face price manipualtion by certain "people"(not anyone in particular either).  Its the market manipulators who ruin it for everyone else.   As far as the rest of it goes, I really could care less.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:38 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Except I don't care if the prices continue to rise.  :?  As a matter of fact with all the crap I am currently sitting on, I would benefit from it.  The only thing that I care about is the outright in your face price manipualtion by certain "people"(not anyone in particular either).  Its the market manipulators who ruin it for everyone else.   As far as the rest of it goes, I really could care less.


I guess the point I'm trying to make is that most of this stuff is far too common to price manipulate....Doug can buy every Dragon #1 that comes up in the next year and they'll STILL be Dragon #1s going up.  And he'll be selling them at a loss if he's not right...so why sweat it.  We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this...so I won't push it anymore, I think my point has been made

Actually Im surprised someone like Troll & Toad or NobleKnight, some dealer sitting on a lot of cash and/or product, hasn't just shut down the market on certain collectibles (i.e., woodgrain box, ST1, Wee Warriors items) and done exactly what you say....buy from me or you're not going to get one. They could if they wanted to...hopefully it won't cross their minds.

My reaction to this is because this seems far more like an excuse for a pissing contest between you and Doug than it does a discussion on free markets or price manipulation...

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:41 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:

Except I don't care if the prices continue to rise.  :?  As a matter of fact with all the crap I am currently sitting on, I would benefit from it.  The only thing that I care about is the outright in your face price manipualtion by certain "people"(not anyone in particular either).  Its the market manipulators who ruin it for everyone else.   As far as the rest of it goes, I really could care less.




And I just thought "Boy, how BEAT UP am I going to get here later on this year when I put up my Dragon collection on ebay..."



Seriously, I need a new car. I promise. My truck sucks. Ask King....



Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:43 am 
 

Well, I think its not possible, in today's global marketplace, to shut down any particular item, unless you happen to already own a very significant portion of the market. Even something very rare, like a Palace of the Vampire Queen. In fact, this would hurt whomever was trying, I think, since it would force the black market" to rise up... there would be a ton more forgeries, more pdfs, more anti-collectible treasures for those who simply wanted to see, and pretend. Only the real hardcore collectors would want in, and I think narrowing the market to such a small niche would be bad, overall.... but, I'm all for lower prices all-around so more people can enjoy these treasures, rathe rthan the "elite" with the bucks. :) Then again, that's likely because I'm poor and don't have any of these uber-expensive things (though I did get a very tempting offer for my one Wee Warrior item.)


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:56 am 
 

Badmike wrote:

And I just thought "Boy, how BEAT UP am I going to get here later on this year when I put up my Dragon collection on ebay..."

Seriously, I need a new car. I promise. My truck sucks. Ask King....

Mike B.




Mike I didn't and wasn't looking to fight with either you or KOP, I truely wasn't.  Nor am I looking to get  into a pissing contest with anyone, however if I see something that I percieve as being "not right" I am going to speak up about it, its just my nature. :) Hell, I am Irishman fer chrisakes, all that we really ever do anyway is drink and fight.  :wink: :lol:.  I did take the heat this morning when I saw the rolly eyes icon in your post and I didn't respond well, thats on me.



Seriously, my intention are pure.  Everyone may not agree with them or my opinions for that matter, but it is pure none the less. :)


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