Early Dungeons, Especially Issue 6
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 612, 3, 4, 56
Author

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7942
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:30 pm 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:I dont presume to think I understand why Doug wants to own every single Dragon #1 in existence.  But I honestly don't think it has anything to do with him "protecting his investment", "cornering the market", or anything similar.  I've met Doug, and although I dont know him very well, I think he is a pretty decent guy and I am usually pretty spot on with first impressions.  Badmike has vouched for him and has spent a lot more time with him than I have so he would know better than I would.  Course he could be a cannibalistic serial-killer and Mike is his next meal for all the good my intuition does me.

I respect what you say and think Brian.  You have spent a lot of time defending this hobby and this forum from people that try to exploit it and its members.  For the most part, it is a pretty thankless and time-consuming job...one that most people have no desire to take part in.  When you are right everyone praises you, but on the flip side, if you are wrong about someone, those people who were praising you before are now keeping their distance.  Nice double-edged sword there eh?

That said, I wish you guys would just drop the whole thing.  For one....it makes you both look like you are involved in nothing more than a pissing contest.  I am not going to try and defend what Doug does because I dont know his mind.  But with all the venom pointed in his direction, it wouldnt surprise me if he was just buying up Dragon #1's just to get you riled up.  If that is indeed the case, and I hope it isn't, it is definitely working.

I give Badmike a hard time about some of his prices on a monthly basis.  I have also made several comments about how looney I think of some of Doug's prices are.  But in the end, it is none of my business how anyone decides to price their items...so I just have to let it go.  Maybe you should just do the same.  At least stop calling him Coug Jr.  I dont think Doug deserves to be lumped in with Dave Whitfield.  Douchebag Dave is in a class all by himself.

Or you could tell me to blow it out my ass because I dont know what I am talking about.....either or is fine with me.  :wink:


Blow it out your ass! (couldn't resist)

Doug isn't stopping anyone from buying Dragon #1s...as a matter of fact, I pretty much know EXACTLY what his cut off bid is. Bid over and you win. Or spend a lot of time looking for Buy it Nows on Dragon 1s on Ebay...or post here or on Dragonsfoot looking for a copy...or contact a dealer directly...any number of methods will get you one, which is why "cornering the market" will never work in this hobby.  Anyone riled up at guys with seemingly unlimited funds don't need to be collecting anything...every hobby has a couple of people who always seem to buy all the best stuff all the time.
 This pissing contest is getting tiring.  I'm sure Doug will tire of buying up Dragon #1s just about when Brian stops ripping him...or maybe not..I don't care anymore. If he wants to buy them and line them up and stare at them, or put them up on ebay for $350 each, who cares. It's the free enterprise system at work.  Blackmoor was killing us all at Gencon with his Daystar bids (and wins) and I don't hate the guy because he bid them up too high for me to compete. It shouldn't even matter why someone is buying them up....a few years back Aneoth was buying up every White Box in sight and everyone was going nuts then too. If it's for an investment, so what....comics started out for kids, baseball cards also, and now people sometimes buy them as investments.  It's the nature of the beast. People are naive if they think certain key items in our hobby aren't going to go up in value in the years ahead.
   I wouldn't be doing what I do if I didn't think I could make a profit. As someone I know once said, "This is no altruistic venture".  Hell if I had more disposable income right now no one would win an auction on rare Call of Cthulhu stuff..that game is primed for a major spike in prices (they are already jumping up).  
 It's just a non issue as far as I'm concerned.  Doug will run out of money long before all the Dragon #1s in the world are gone. His motives are his own....if they are for profit, so be it.  Unlike Coug, I've seen Doug cut deals for people on occasion, myself included, I don't even know if Coug would let his own mother eat out of the dogfood bowl if she was starving.  The market will decide what anything is worth when/if Doug decides to resell them...he may be setting them aside in a safe for 20 years, who knows what they will be worth then? Anyway I just wish everyone would realize nothing is going to be proven or solved here and move on.

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:55 pm 
 

Well here is my final say on this for now.  First off, as long as Doug keeps buying Dragon #1s they will be posted here.  If Doug doesn't like the fact that I post every single one of his Dragon #1s he wins, that is his problem not mine.  He can either stop buying them all and let someone else win one every once in awhile or he can ignore me.  Either way its a win-win situation.  Again its not just the number of copies he has  bought, its the prices that he has been shelling out for them versus what the market for them has been.  If he was buying them all at $100 a piece it would be one thing, as the value on them is a lot higher than that. But he's not.  He is buying them at the top end of the scale to ensure that they go for what he "thinks" that they should go for or he wins.  That is where I have the problem.

Secondly, I do find it kind of interesting to see how people hold one person to a one set of standards, while others we don't even though they are doing the exact same thing.   Don't believe me?  Do a forum search on the terms "Cougar" and "H1" or "Bloodstone" or creep1962 and see how different certain peoples reactions are to those things.  Lets just say its, "educational".  

Its really easy to ignore it all as long as he isn't buying up all of what you want, but its funny when the shoe is on the other foot and one person is buying up all of a particular item that you want when it suddenly becomes not-so "okay" anymore.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 683
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jun 03, 2020
Location: Bedford, TX

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:31 pm 
 

Ok, B.. maybe it's my bidding style then...

Usually when I want to buy something on eBay, I review the item, ask for more details, get more pictures... then I decide how much ie: the MAX amount I am willing to spend... then I place one bid.. my maximum final bid and I walk away... (not on all, but usually a rather high bid.. and after getting some final photos I might go higher)

When I started doing that with Dragon #1, you said I was driving up the price since I am willing to pay from $200+ to over $300 for a Dragon based on condition.

When I make such a high early bid, it means others have to overbid my price to get one... (thus my statement that people would have to pay a premium price since I don't low bid) so in a sense it drives up the price IF someone else wants the copy I have bid on... and since you attributed that to the fact I had some Dragon's in my store (which are the ones I decided not to keep since I am always looking to have a nicer copy of anything and thus keep the nicest).. I took them out of the store since I have no need to sell them...

Now I changed bidding styles, more at your "urging" than how I bid... so now I no longer make the up front bid (though if I can't be there at snipe time, I will make some kind of bid) I wait until the last few seconds and I bid the original amount I would have in the first place... meaning even though the Dragons I have won have ranged from $200-$270 in price, I did bid more on every one of them.

It seems to me, that you (and possibly many others here) attempt to buy on eBay or any place for that matter at the "lowest" price they can get an item at.... and that's NOT how I do it... I never have.. my final bid on items is always the absolute highest price I am willing to pay... ie: the other day a Don't Give Up the Ship was up for auction, and I won it for $23.15 .. now I have sold one of these in the store for ~$125.00 and have seen auctions go to ~$108+ .. so when I placed my bid in the last 5 sec... I bid $89.97 ... so if I resold it for $125... I'd make a few dollars.... I was willing to pay $89.00+ for the item, yet no one else bid on it so I got it for $23.15 !

In the past I would have bid the $89.97 the day I saw the item, and I might have paid more for it in the end than $23.15, so I am listening to you and I have changed my bidding style and it has saved me some money... so even though we don't see eye to eye, I get nuggets of good info from you... but still not sure why it makes me a bad person when I do buy lots of the same item.

I don't try and get the item at the absolute cheapest price, I try to make sure my "offer" for the item is fair and close to the realistic price the seller  hopes to get for the item... someone posting a low BIN will get what they posted it for since that must be all they want/expect.. though an ultra rare with a low BIN would get more from me since I'd feel like I was ripping them off if they didn't get at least 2/3 it's real value.

In any case, I wouldn't have started buying as many Dragon #1's if it hadn't "bothered" you as much as it seems to. Maybe "bother" is too harsh a word, but since you track them and seem to post everyone I buy (and make some off the wall comment about it), I don't want to disappoint you so I keep buying them... as long as I can afford to... 3-4 per month is about all I can handle, more than that and I'd have to get pickier in which one's I bid on.

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 4743
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 05, 2021
Location: Garland, TX

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:53 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Well here is my final say on this for now.  First off, as long as Doug keeps buying Dragon #1s they will be posted here.  If Doug doesn't like the fact that I post every single one of his Dragon #1s he wins, that is his problem not mine.  He can either stop buying them all and let someone else win one every once in awhile or he can ignore me.  Either way its a win-win situation.  Again its not just the number of copies he has  bought, its the prices that he has been shelling out for them versus what the market for them has been.  If he was buying them all at $100 a piece it would be one thing, as the value on them is a lot higher than that. But he's not.  He is buying them at the top end of the scale to ensure that they go for what he "thinks" that they should go for or he wins.  That is where I have the problem.

Secondly, I do find it kind of interesting to see how people hold one person to a one set of standards, while others we don't even though they are doing the exact same thing.   Don't believe me?  Do a forum search on the terms "Cougar" and "H1" or "Bloodstone" or creep1962 and see how different certain peoples reactions are to those things.  Lets just say its, "educational".  

Its really easy to ignore it all as long as he isn't buying up all of what you want, but its funny when the shoe is on the other foot and one person is buying up all of a particular item that you want when it suddenly becomes not-so "okay" anymore.


It's actually kinda funny....a couple of years ago when creep1962 started buying up every uncommon or rare item he could get his hands on to resell them for a significant markup, just about everyone on this forum, including myself, was ready to go to war with the guy.  The fucked up thing about it was....he was right.  A couple of years too early but all of those R and RPGA series modules he bought have doubled in value since then.  Sure he was an idiot about it at the time, lied about who he was, and he is a horrible seller, but if he had put them in a box somewhere and pulled them out today, half the people on this forum would be falling over themselves to snatch them up.

Cougarrinard is a rip-off artist to the extreme.  How in the world can you compare Doug to Dave?  Dave has proven time and time again that he knows how to screw people out of their money and buck the system.  So the Coug tried to "corner" the H1 market a few years back.  Did it work?  No....and if Doug were actually trying to corner the market on Dragon mags it wouldnt work with that either.  I dont know what Doug scored on his SAT's but I guarantee he isnt that stupid.

If a complete stranger keeps outbidding me on an item I really want, it frustrates me eventually.  Do I think that they are trying to corner the market on the item and push the price up so that I can never afford it....nope.  Do I vent my frustrations out on a public forum in a constructive way....sometimes.  Do I call complete strangers idiots for paying ten times the normal amount on an item assuming that they will never visit this site and realize it is them I am talking about?  Sure I do.  But I am not about to devote more than a couple of minutes of my time dwelling on it.  I have better things to do.  And eventually the moron that has bought every copy of "Don't Give Up The Tricolored Nanorien Stone on Boot Hill" for the past eight months will eventually decide he has wasted enough money and time on it and I will then pick up a copy for considerably less than he has paid for his.

I'm not going to go into the various reasons why you and some other people on this forum seem to dislike Doug.  He was raked over the coals pretty hard because of what seemed to me like an honest mistake.  Put yourself in his shoes and tell me you wouldnt respond in a similar fashion given the situation.  It is obvious, and he has said as much in a previous post, that the main reason he is buying them is just to piss you off.  It seems to be working very well too.  The ironic thing Brian is that you had a hand in creating the very problem you are seeking to resolve.  But Doug, you have pushed just as hard and you are equally at fault.

So why dont both of you just stop?  If youre not going to then how about using PM's to call each other names so the rest of us dont have to deal with the vile banter anymore.  It's old, it's tired, and both of you have more to offer this forum than your obvious dislike for one another.  Get over yourselves already!!!

I normally wouldnt bother but this is starting to wear me out.  I could just ignore it but I was in a rather pissy mood anyway.  :evil:


You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:39 pm 
 

And here I didn't want to fight within anyone else(especially someone who I have been on the same side as many times in the past) in this matter, but I guess I have no choice:

Kingofpain89 wrote:It's actually kinda funny....a couple of years ago when creep1962 started buying up every uncommon or rare item he could get his hands on to resell them for a significant markup, just about everyone on this forum, including myself, was ready to go to war with the guy.  The fucked up thing about it was....he was right.  A couple of years too early but all of those R and RPGA series modules he bought have doubled in value since then.  Sure he was an idiot about it at the time, lied about who he was, and he is a horrible seller, but if he had put them in a box somewhere and pulled them out today, half the people on this forum would be falling over themselves to snatch them up.


Umm, no.   First off and foremost R and RPGA modules have seen a moderate increase over the last two years, but not anywhere near what he was trying to sell them at.   He was trying to sell the R modules back then, when they were going for between $125- $175 for over $400 each(he had his BIN for the 4 R modules sitting in his store at $1799.99).  Nowayadays they are going for $150-$200(with the excepetion of R4 which seems to have really spiked at ~$300).  Even today, no one and I mean no one, would be falling all over themselves to buy them up at over $400 each.

Aside from that, this market like every other market has its ebbs and its flows.  Some items are hot right not and others not so much.  Two years ago 1st print woodgrain sets were going for between $4000-$5000 and the last couple haven't even broken $3000. Christ, I sold one last year and it didn't even break $875. In addition, and I can't speak for anyone but myself in this matter, but I would not buy anything off that guy, even if he was selling it 1/10 of the going rate on principle alone.  The R and RPGA modules are no different and are just as likely to see an ebb here in over the next couple of years as they are to continue at the rate they have been.

Kingofpain89 wrote:So the Coug tried to "corner" the H1 market a few years back.  Did it work?  No....and if Doug were actually trying to corner the market on Dragon mags it wouldnt work with that either.  I dont know what Doug scored on his SAT's but I guarantee he isnt that stupid.


Was he able to successfully corner the market on H1? No, you are right he wasn't.  that said, do you honestly believe that his continuous jacking up the price on them has not had an affect on the value of them even still today?  You bet your ass it has.  Cougarrinard is one of the primary reasons that complete H1s typical exceed $100 at auction even today.  Its not the only reason albiet, but its a big one.   There are several other comparable modules out there with counters including B10 which may in fact be borh harder to find complete then H1 and is a superior adventure by just about anyone's standards and yet consistantly falls well short of the $100 range in auctions.  The common denomintor in this is Cougar and not much else.

Kingofpain89 wrote:  It is obvious, and he has said as much in a previous post, that the main reason he is buying them is just to piss you off.


Sorry King, but I am going to have call a spade a spade here. This is utter and complete bullsh*t, period.  Blaming me for someone else's actions is attune to blaming the rape victim for being to scantily clad.  Its bull sh*t then and its bulls sh*t now.  Doug is buying up all the Dragon #1's because he wants to buy them and no other reason.  He can try and pin it on me, but he is the one doing the bidding and buying not me.  He is responsible for his own actions, not me.  You may not care about what he is doing and you may not like what I have to say about it, but this has nothing to do with me and everything to do with him.

Kingofpain89 wrote: It seems to be working very well too.  The ironic thing Brian is that you had a hand in creating the very problem you are seeking to resolve.  


No again as stated above he isn't pissing me off, he's really not.  Again trying to blame me for anyone elses action other then my own, is complete BS.  I post this stuff to educate the other people to see and make up their own minds and no other reason.  If they see it and it doesn't bother them, more power to them, but they will know what's going on beforehand.

Kingofpain89 wrote: So why dont both of you just stop?  If youre not going to then how about using PM's to call each other names so the rest of us dont have to deal with the vile banter anymore.  It's old, it's tired, and both of you have more to offer this forum than your obvious dislike for one another.  Get over yourselves already!!!


I'll remember this the next time madmaksid bids something up that you want.  You can't have it both ways. Just because Doug decided to jump into the fire and join the forum doens't get him any special exceptions, at least not by me and I really hope no one else does either.  As a matter of fact, as being a member of this forum we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard than we do other people, not a lower one.  

I am sorry if this annoys you because you and Doug are friendly outside the forum, but TBH I not sure that really matters. Don't get me wrong, I am not intentionaly trying to piss you or anyone else off for that matter (besides him), but I guess sometimes thats the result of my posting, its an occupational hazzard.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:48 pm 
 

I should probably also note, that I have toned down my actions here considerably over the last couple of months.  With the exception of the Dragon #1 thing here in this thread and the Cougarrinard thing with Natalie last month(both of which which were effectively pre-existing issues as it was), I haven't posted anything new about shillers and what-not, nor do I intend to(despite seeing several possible examples on Ebay since then).  Since the Natalie thing seems to have run its course, the only thing left is this, which pretty much means as soon as Doug here stops buying up all the Dragon #1s, then I won't be posting about any of this stuff any more.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 4743
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 05, 2021
Location: Garland, TX

Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:55 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:And here I didn't want to fight within anyone else(especially someone who I have been on the same side as many times in the past) in this matter, but I guess I have no choice.


Actually Brian you always have a choice.

I'm not going to argue with you over the prices of rare modules.  There would be no point since you are on the valuation board and keep track of these.  And since the majority of woodgrains on Ebay over the last year have been in absolute shit condition it's not surprising that they arent selling for higher prices.

But how can you sit here and tell me that your not pissed off at Doug?  If your not pissed off then what is it?  Why are you trying to make him out to be nothing but a total prick?  You say you are trying to "educate people to see and make up their own minds" but from what I am reading it seems as if you are trying to make up their minds for them.

I just want you to understand that this isnt about you and me.  This is simply about the ongoing arguing and unnecessary rants that go on between you and Doug.  It has to stop sometime or one of you will most likely leave the forum.  I honestly dont wish that to happen to either of you.  It would be simpler to agree to disagree and move on.  You also should understand that Doug and I aren't friends.  I met him once at Mike's and thats it.  I have never been to his house or out in public with him.  I have never purchased anything from him.  We've never shared a deep, heartfelt conversation about D&D or anything else for that matter.  I just happen to live in the same general area as Doug and we share a mutual friend in Mike.

And by the way...just because I posted that madmaksid is an idiot because he bids up all the good Traveller stuff doesnt mean that I think he is the Antichrist (we all know Dave Whitfield is the Son of Lucifer  :wink: ).  Hell...Kynan Conner outbid him on every one of those Group One auctions by a considerable margin.  What does that make him?  Just another collector with a lot of money and no reason to care what others think about how much he pays for his items.  Good for him.  I dont see the fun in that but hey...whatever floats your boat.

The point of my earlier post was nothing more than a way to hopefully get your attention to make you both realize that neither of you are doing any good bringing this argument to the fore of half the threads on the forum.  Obviously I failed.  No big deal though as I honestly didnt expect to.  :?


You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3792
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Last Visit: Oct 19, 2020

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:03 am 
 

Center_Stage_Hobbies wrote:Doug very decently sold me some items I needed at prices that I liked.




Likewise, Doug cut me a pretty good deal on his PoVQ, far below what he had it listed for on ebay.  Plus, he did a solid job of packing it, and followed through on my meticulous instructions for shipping it to my State-side contact.  I was very pleased with the whole deal.


Let mirth prevail!

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7942
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:00 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:I should probably also note, that I have toned down my actions here considerably over the last couple of months.  With the exception of the Dragon #1 thing here in this thread and the Cougarrinard thing with Natalie last month(both of which which were effectively pre-existing issues as it was), I haven't posted anything new about shillers and what-not, nor do I intend to(despite seeing several possible examples on Ebay since then).  Since the Natalie thing seems to have run its course, the only thing left is this, which pretty much means as soon as Doug here stops buying up all the Dragon #1s, then I won't be posting about any of this stuff any more.


Really?  Wow, LUCKY US!   :roll:

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 683
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jun 03, 2020
Location: Bedford, TX

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:21 am 
 

bombadil wrote:

Likewise, Doug cut me a pretty good deal on his PoVQ, far below what he had it listed for on ebay.  Plus, he did a solid job of packing it, and followed through on my meticulous instructions for shipping it to my State-side contact.  I was very pleased with the whole deal.




In "defense" of B's protests here, the PotVQ doesn't really apply...



Bombadil... some items like the PotVQ I place on eBay at a higher price not to sell, but for "advertisement" since very rare items seem to draw a crowd (and getting people in your store is always good). I never expected to sell it at the listed price... but I did sell the module for $38.00 less than I paid for it, as I felt I over paid for the item based on it's condition once I received it. I am glad you were happy with the deal.



The Dragon # 1s on the other hand I listed at prices I figured they would sell for, and I did sell a couple around $289 to $349 and had many inquires on the $349+ copies with a few asking to pay $100.00 down and make payments... so that alone tells me people are willing to pay higher prices for the Dragon # 1... were I trying to advertise with Dragon # 1, I'd have them on eBay in the $450+ range (I don't think they'd sell for over $400 at the moment)

 WWW  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1295
Joined: Nov 06, 2002
Last Visit: May 14, 2013
Location: Essex, UK

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:50 am 
 

ScketreWhisp wrote:Bombadil... some items like the PotVQ I place on eBay at a higher price not to sell, but for "advertisement" since very rare items seem to draw a crowd


Yeah, the Missus swears by expensive shiny things (plus the Power 9) to draw in people at Magic tournaments.

Cheers,
Malc

 WWW  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:58 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
Really?  Wow, LUCKY US!   :roll:

Mike B.

Hi Mike,
Why don't you go hang out with Sea to Sky Games, because he was such a swell guy that you vouched for too. :roll:


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7942
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:03 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Kingofpain89 wrote:
 So the Coug tried to "corner" the H1 market a few years back.  Did it work?  No....and if Doug were actually trying to corner the market on Dragon mags it wouldnt work with that either.  I dont know what Doug scored on his SAT's but I guarantee he isnt that stupid.


Was he able to successfully corner the market on H1? No, you are right he wasn't.  that said, do you honestly believe that his continuous jacking up the price on them has not had an affect on the value of them even still today?  You bet your ass it has.  Cougarrinard is one of the primary reasons that complete H1s typical exceed $100 at auction even today.  Its not the only reason albiet, but its a big one.   There are several other comparable modules out there with counters including B10 which may in fact be borh harder to find complete then H1 and is a superior adventure by just about anyone's standards and yet consistantly falls well short of the $100 range in auctions.  The common denomintor in this is Cougar and not much else.



I was selling H1's for $100 10 years ago, before Coug had bought his three houses and grew man boobs.  The "common denominator" is SCARCITY of COMPLETE product.  H1 came in that crappy skinny box (like no other TSR product every published before or since) that is ALWAYS crushed, sometimes even in the shrink; it included counters, often missing or separated;  buildings that were supposed to be cut up, and supported a system (Battlesystem) that never became popular or caught on with the gaming public.  You couldn't SCRIPT a better instant collectible than a complete set of H1 Bloodstone Pass!  I have been selling on the internet since 1994 and in that entire time, H1 has been one of the most highly sought after AD&D collectibles ever.  Cougie could have never existed (wishful thinking) and it would still go for $100.
 And to say that something Coug did over a year ago is still having pull in the market just doesn't make sense.  If he isn't bidding them up, then the H1's are getting what the market dictates. Whether or not it's a "good" module (highly subjective anyway) has no bearing on what it will bring in the marketplace...ST1 and most of the Wee Warriors stuff is crap, as is a lot of the "collectible" stuff out there, yet it goes for high prices based on perception.  In the case of H1, it's even a little bit of reality as it's damn hard to get one of these in complete condition when everyone else that needs one is bidding against you. Should B10 be worth more? Probably.  Is it a Coug plot? Doubtful.
 The point is, it's damn hard to manipulate the prices on the market on anything that's not a super rare. Cougs attempted corner of the H1 market didn't change prices except for the short run.  Creepy's attempted manipulation (pay twice what something is worth and then try to sell it for four times what it's worth) was both laughable and pathetic.  Doug's buying up of Dragon #1s for over the "set" price may be an investment; I know I had it pegged as a "rising star" the minute Dragon magazine announced their cancellation.  Personally, I don't know that I would invest in Dragon #1 to the extent Doug has....do I wish I had 4-5 stashed away?  You bet.  Investments in collectibles see the most return when you can puchase an UNDERVALUED product and sell it for the maximum.  Right now, certain collectible RPG items are NOT undervalued IMO....while stuff like Dragon #1s, White Boxes, certain SW items, are.  I wouldn't be surprised at all to see both Dragon #1 and a white box go regularly for $300 in the near future...without any sort of market manipulation.  We can even get into the entire "Why does Dungeon #1 go for so much?" when it's one of the more common mags of the entire run (more perception there) but it's not important unless someone starts buying them all up anyway.
   The fact is that this is a pissing contest between you and Doug and always has been (your first post concerning him way back when kind of tipped it off) and has nothing to do about market manipulation or whatever  I honestly don't know who you are thinking you are helping by harping on the fact he's buying up Dragon #1s....it's a far cry from spotting shillers and thieves on Ebay.  The fact is most of us would, given the chance, take advantage ofa market to buy low and sell high.  Right now, I wish I could, but it's just not in the cards.
  If I was looking for a Dragon #1 right now, Imight be pissed off (as I'm sure King is in his quest for certain Traveller items), but I guarantee I'd find one. Anyone paying an inflated price for anything doesn't have the patience to be a good collector anyway.

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7942
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:12 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:Hi Mike,
Why don't you go hang out with Sea to Sky Games, because he was such a swell guy that you vouched for too. :roll:


Not even germane to the discussion...man, you are slipping....well, then again he was ANOTHER guy you had a pissing contest with on the forum.  I'm starting to see a common denominator here...

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:20 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I'm starting to see a common denominator here...

Mike B.


You're right of course. It's funny though that the common denominator here seems to be you keep "vouching" for people who aren't turning out to be so great....


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3590
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: Canada

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:25 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
You're right of course. It's funny though that the common denominator here seems to be you keep "vouching" for people who aren't turning out to be so great....


Mike is a top shelf dealer, fair and HONEST. This comment is crap :evil:


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

 WWW  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:31 am 
 

Badmike wrote:  
I honestly don't know who you are thinking you are helping by harping on the fact he's buying up Dragon #1s.  
Mike B.


Of course you don't.  You view people who drive the prices as being good for your business. As a matter of fact you love to see this crap happen, as it not only allows you to get the positive end result of higehr prices without having to be the "bad guy" by doing it yourself.  You know you claim to have the hobby's best interest in mind all the time, so since thats the case can you please explain how its good for anyone and I mean anyone else for one person to buying up all the Dragon #1s?


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2737
Joined: May 31, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 30, 2020

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:50 am 
 

This forum needs a War Room. :)


Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3590
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: Canada

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:52 am 
 

serleran wrote:This forum needs a War Room. :)


maybe just a truce :!:


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7942
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 16, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:05 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:

Of course you don't.  You view people who drive the prices as being good for your business. As a matter of fact you love to see this crap happen, as it not only allows you to get the positive end result of higehr prices without having to be the "bad guy" by doing it yourself.  You know you claim to have the hobby's best interest in mind all the time, so since thats the case can you please explain how its good for anyone and I mean anyone else for one person to buying up all the Dragon #1s?




I don't apologize for higher prices...what would be the point? It's out of my control since I have neither the means nor ability to raise them. Why don't you just be mad about the rising price of gasoline instead of investing in oil companies and enjoying the view?  Or buy an electric car?  Or invest in biofuels?  This isn't socialism or communism...I can make a profit and not have to feel bad about it...and I usually don't. Unlike those that claim they only sell items for "what the market will bear" yet somehow don't REFUND extra money spent for something that went over what the item should bring on the market.  Shouldn't that lucky seller correct the mistake and restore order to the marketplace by givng back to the clueless buyer?  :?



  Looking out for the hobby and investing/making money off it aren't mutually exclusive.  Every collectible item has promoters in it's hobby, and people making money off it, and they are the same in some cases.  I don't care for the 1930s proletariat attitude I should feel "guilty" making money....if gaming items are going up in price, great for the hobby AND my business. And no, I"m not sitting on any giant horde of investment-potential gaming booty waiting to make my fortune.  But the more people buying from reputable dealers is better for everyone (hobby, collectors, gamers) in the long run.



  The same wolf cries were heard when people were buying up white boxes, and R series, and H1s, yet interestingly the market corrects itself. If the item is truly rare, it continues to go up in price. If it's just a market fluctuation, it settles back down to where it should be.



    Brian, I really forsee a very upsetting next few years for you as prices continue to rise on collectibles in the RPG market, as the genie isn't going back in the bottle here. You can continue to complain about rising prices and forlornly wish for the "good old days" or realize the hobby has reached a maturity that occured with such collectibles as baseball cards, comics and pulp magazines.  I dabbled in the last two both before, during and after the collectible aspect reached what is going on in RPGS right now.  Like you, on the forums I lurked and posted on and in the collecting circles I ran in there were several who fought tooth and nail to keep their hobby "pristine".  It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now.  



  So rising prices on Dragon 1's are good for anyone owning a Dragon #1 (obviously) that wants to sell it, as it's finally reached a piece of it's potential; it's good for those owning any of the first year or so of Dragon, as a matter of fact, that need or want to sell; it's good for the hobby as a whole for prices to rise (including someone like The Collector's Trove who will continue to benefit from the market by getting high prices for RPG goodies); it's good for the high fathers of our hobby, don't they deserve to cash in? (what would be paid for Kuntz, Hendryks, Sutherland, etc auctions if no one cared?);  it's good for collectors themselves...that's right, because for every high price paid for a Ghost Tower or Lost Tamoachaon or Wee Warriors item, another old school gamer says "Hey, I have one of those in a box in my parents house, I need to sell it"...it brings out items that may never have seen the light of day. No one is going to dig into their old basement for a gaming item going for a few bucks on ebay...but when copies are selling for $300? Suddenly more appear. We've all seen it happen.  Interestingly the comic industry went through such a shakeup many years ago.  At one time there were estimated to only be a handfull of "key"issue comics such as Action #1, Detective #39, and All Star Comics #1.  Due to publicity from high auction prices, numbers of verifiable issues for a lot of these have DOUBLED in the last 20 years!  Higher prices in some cases ARE good for the hobby as a whole.



And btw I had a somewhat similar reaction at this year's Gencon auction when the owner of Troll and Toad was sitting right in front of the Acaeum members, buying up stuff HIS OWN COMPANY WAS AUCTIONING!  But then again I also beat him out on a few items because I was willing to go a little higher, and I noticed he didn't bid at all on any of the rares (he wasn't going to be able to buy them and sell them fora profit, not at what Blackmoor was paying he wasn't!) Anyway while I think it was bad form on his part...what can you do.  If I wanted any of the items I could have outbid him...as everyone else is welcome to do when someone tries to "corner" the market on a valuable gaming item.



No one is prevented from owning a Dragon #1. I can think of 4-5 ways I'd go about getting one right now if I REALLY had to have one under "market" price, including advertisng on forums, advertising in my local gaming store, contacting online game or comic companies, monitoring ebay BINs, etc.  We might as well rail against Degassy for buying up all the Collector's Trove stuff....or anyone buying up stuff we want. For myself having made a considerable investment in gaming stuff through the last couple of decades, I think it's neat to see my once "worthless" gaming collection accumlate value and hopefully contribute to my car/house/grandson's college fund someday.



Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com


Last edited by Badmike on Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 612, 3, 4, 56