Large cache of early D&D unearthed
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:55 am 
 

Great.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:02 am 
 

Thank you, Scott. Just in time, too! :)

===

Just like to point out, that if the following is http://www.acaeum.com/images/WhiteBox2.jpg , I'd recommend annulling any bids on that, Tim.

Kaskoid wrote:White Box Tactical Studies Rules        (IM001813) No rips, cuts or tears on box, v. clean
               With Charts                                        M
                Men & Magic         1st Printing                        NM
               Monst. & Treas.  3rd Printing April 1975        M
               Under. & Wilder, 1st Printing                        M

That is one strange chimaera!

The M&T appears to be a 3rd, judging by the guillotining, but the others are 5th+ not 1st (sorry :(): M&M doesn't appear to be a 7th and U&WA's relative color looks more like a 5th, although it could be one of the 6ths.

Tim; from a dollar perspective, I'd strongly recommend swapping the two white boxes around so that the best box would go with the 4th print books and what appears to be the 4th print ref sheets (partly hidden).
As it is, you've got the good books in the poor box and the mishmash remainder books in the good box.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:18 am 
 

faro wrote:Thank you, Scott. Just in time, too! :)

===

Just like to point out, that if the following is http://www.acaeum.com/images/WhiteBox2.jpg , I'd recommend annulling any bids on that, Tim.

Kaskoid wrote:White Box Tactical Studies Rules        (IM001813) No rips, cuts or tears on box, v. clean
               With Charts                                        M
                Men & Magic         1st Printing                        NM
               Monst. & Treas.  3rd Printing April 1975        M
               Under. & Wilder, 1st Printing                        M

That is one strange chimaera!

The M&T appears to be a 3rd, judging by the guillotining, but the others are 5th+ not 1st (sorry :(): M&M doesn't appear to be a 7th and U&WA's relative color looks more like a 5th, although it could be one of the 6ths.

Tim; from a dollar perspective, I'd strongly recommend swapping the two white boxes around so that the best box would go with the 4th print books and what appears to be the 4th print ref sheets (partly hidden).
As it is, you've got the good books in the poor box and the mishmash remainder books in the good box.


you really need to get out more :)

good researching that!

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:56 am 
 

While I know that you guys have spent hours at this, what says that they are not what I think they are? And I stress the word Think...

There are NO markings inside like there are with every other print run I have seen. You really should not put too much empirical weight on or credence in such things as ink shade or cutting on a cover. If there were covers left over from a previous run that were the same art-wise, they were used up first on the nexrt run. Every run of the small books I ever saw had miscuts and minor color variations. If there were unused folios (large sheets printed, folded and cut into smaller ones) that did not contain errata, they were used first. Any printer will tell you that when they set out to produce/sell a given number of folios and covers, they plan to produce a number that exceeds the number ordered. This allows for press errors, cutter errors, collating and binding errors and the like.
They were produced by a great guy that owned a small printing shop in Lake Geneva that became inadequate for our needs. Of course he used up old stock before producing new.

If you can emperically prove me wrong, I'll acknowledge my errors of ignorance graciously; otherwise, rusty though they may be, I'll stick by my rememberings, and write provenance based on it.


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:12 am 
 

Kaskoid wrote:While I know that you guys have spent hours at this, what says that they are not what I think they are? And I stress the word Think...

I know what you mean; from experience, goalposts keep moving in this research, too! :)

Kaskoid wrote:If there were covers left over from a previous run that were the same art-wise, they were used up first on the nexrt run. Every run of the small books I ever saw had miscuts and minor color variations.

Yes, that applies even to the runs within the first print (not a cohesive "1,000 copies" as currently stated).

Kaskoid wrote:If there were unused folios (large sheets printed, folded and cut into smaller ones) that did not contain errata, they were used first. Any printer will tell you that when they set out to produce/sell a given number of folios and covers, they plan to produce a number that exceeds the number ordered. This allows for press errors, cutter errors, collating and binding errors and the like.
They were produced by a great guy that owned a small printing shop in Lake Geneva that became inadequate for our needs. Of course he used up old stock before producing new.

Yep. And that's caused no end of fun, research-wise (e.g. with the variant - actually relatively common - 1st print U&WA with "2nd print" cover).

The obvious "problem" with those second white box books is that the covers for M&M and U&WA are far too new to be Lake Geneva (1/2) or even Heritage Model prints (3), so I wouldn't have expected the "original" 1st print text block to be contained within.

Quick check, please:
M&M - stock list on back page: how many items priced and list the first few.
U&WA - sketchy or redrawn dungeon map on page 4 (compare with that other 4th print you have)

=
Apologies if that's slightly rushed, Tim, but there's a deadline to meet. Know that feeling? :)

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:51 am 
 

M&M - stock list on back page: how many items priced and list the first few.


Duh... my face matches this ink. Of course it couldn't be 1st with reference to Dragon... My bad.


U&WA - sketchy or redrawn dungeon map on page 4 (compare with that other 4th print you have)


Neat, clean drawing, much neater than other one.


Tim; from a dollar perspective, I'd strongly recommend swapping the two white boxes around so that the best box would go with the 4th print books and what appears to be the 4th print ref sheets (partly hidden).
As it is, you've got the good books in the poor box and the mishmash remainder books in the good box.


Will swap boxes, but why? Isn't the nice quality box with the thoroughbred set a better piece? I'm SOOO confused....

I can sell the "mish-mash" books singly if the box is trash. or throw in the old woodgrain.


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:35 am 
 

Kaskoid wrote:
M&M - stock list on back page: how many items priced and list the first few.

Duh... my face matches this ink. Of course it couldn't be 1st with reference to Dragon... My bad.

Heh, heh... :oops:

No probs, Tim. Just so long as that's resolved and everyone's happy with the final outcome.

Kaskoid wrote:
U&WA - sketchy or redrawn dungeon map on page 4 (compare with that other 4th print you have)

Neat, clean drawing, much neater than other one.

Good. That's one of the areas that was reworked for the 5th & subsequent prints.

To determine 5th/(6th/7th), try:
M&M stock list: 5th ends with Character Archaic and Complete Catalog; 6th ends with Dragon and Complete Catalog; 7th ends with Percentile Dice and Dragon.
U&WA page 14: 5th, pic titled Nazgul; 6th/7th, untitled. From the color on the cover, if it's a 6th/7th my money's with 6th.

(more to follow...)

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:53 am 
 

Kaskoid wrote:
Tim; from a dollar perspective, I'd strongly recommend swapping the two white boxes around so that the best box would go with the 4th print books and what appears to be the 4th print ref sheets (partly hidden).
As it is, you've got the good books in the poor box and the mishmash remainder books in the good box.


[color=green]Will swap boxes, but why? Isn't the nice quality box with the thoroughbred set a better piece? I'm SOOO confused....


Yes, which is why swapping would be better, IMHO!

(It's not a hard-and-fast science but...)



At present you have

1) http://www.acaeum.com/images/WhiteBox1.jpg

poor non-OCE box, books 4,4,4 & ref sheets 4 (apparently, but need to check they're complete)

2) http://www.acaeum.com/images/WhiteBox2.jpg

crisp non-OCE box, books 6?,3,5/6? & late ref sheets



The 4th prints in a poor box might sell for $100-120 (I was picking them up for $75 a couple of years ago).

The 4th prints in a crisp non-OCE box are another matter altogether.

Burnie Bros just sold a not-quite-so-good set for $306 ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8783855566 ) and although I think that was *way* over the odds, the box condition is clearly what made the difference. I'd love a set like that, but I'm not going to pay that much and it's only fair you should pick up the $.



Best box with the matching set is the way to go, IMO.

(Even if it's a slightly later non-OCE box, I'm probably the only person who might query that and anyhow - as you point out and I've observed - there was a serious amount of mix-and-matching going on; both at the printing and collating stages as stock was required/became available).



At present, box 2 is only interesting for the box: the three mixed volumes are of relatively little value.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:04 pm 
 

Kaskoid wrote:I can sell the "mish-mash" books singly if the box is trash. or throw in the old woodgrain.

First bit of advice: Listen to everything faro says.  He's rarely wrong on this stuff.
Second bit of advice:  If you have a woodgrain box floating around, it's worth money on its own, with or without books.  Big money.

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:11 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Second bit of advice:  If you have a woodgrain box floating around, it's worth money on its own, with or without books.  Big money.

Some people are just too helpful! :)
*jk*

*points back to the second post on this thread*

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:20 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:First bit of advice: Listen to everything faro says.  He's rarely wrong on this stuff.

We collectors are a fickle bunch, though: sometimes never know when people are going to go very high (erm, Paul's late 1st print, for example :roll:) or very low (like that very nice 2nd U&WA Stephen picked up for <$20).

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:26 pm 
 

U&WA page 14: 5th, pic titled Nazgul; 6th/7th, untitled. From the color on the cover, if it's a 6th/7th my money's with 6th.


Titled Nazgul... it is.

6th ends with Dragon and Complete Catalog


OK, it does...

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does OCE stand for?

OK, the pure set of 4ths in good box, remainder in broken box, and woodgrain by itself. Which ref sheets go where?

On the woodgrain with the duct taped corner, my wife says that is the one I have had "forever"; it's probably my very first...


CLARIFICATION:

Character Record pad I have is grey,printed both sides,  24 sheets and cardboard, WITH cover (Tom Wham art) loose. Item No. F 1009


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:28 pm 
 

i dont know what OCE stands for either....guessing its Original Collectors Edition?

Al



  


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:28 pm 
 

faro wrote:
deimos3428 wrote:Second bit of advice:  If you have a woodgrain box floating around, it's worth money on its own, with or without books.  Big money.

Some people are just too helpful! :)
*jk*

*points back to the second post on this thread*

Please note "big money" is subjective.  I meant more than $20, or ten times the value of the ultra-rare B2.   :twisted:

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:33 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:i dont know what OCE stands for either....guessing its Original Collectors Edition?

Al


Bingo. :wink:


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:37 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
killjoy32 wrote:i dont know what OCE stands for either....guessing its Original Collectors Edition?

Al


Bingo. :wink:


wahay! what a guess :)

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:36 pm 
 

Kaskoid wrote:
U&WA page 14: 5th, pic titled Nazgul; 6th/7th, untitled. From the color on the cover, if it's a 6th/7th my money's with 6th.

Titled Nazgul... it is.

Kaskoid wrote:
6th ends with Dragon and Complete Catalog

OK, it does...

So that other set of books is 5/3/6, then. Interesting mix! :)

Not so happy if that means someone has walked-off with your original set, though... :? Happened to me, too.

=

Kaskoid wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does OCE stand for?

Yup, the collectors edition (6th/7th) with the red "starburst" on the cover of the box ( => http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpage ... oxoce.html ).
Those are common compared with a non-OCE box (so a beat-up non-OCE isn't a write-off, IMO).

==

Kaskoid wrote:OK, the pure set of 4ths in good box, remainder in broken box, and woodgrain by itself.

Sounds best to me.

Kaskoid wrote:Which ref sheets go where?

I think you have the correct 4th sheets as displayed.
Those are unique to the 4th print owing to the way the correction page is "pasted" on the front -- and cannot be replaced by any other correction/ref sheet set.

Image

One more question on the 4th print M&M:
Does it have an address label pasted over the address at the foot of the stock list?
I'm guessing there's a very good chance that since you have a "staff copy" that there might not be that label.
Working theory (judging by the purchase date and box) is that those were only missing on early copies, but there's only one copy known thus far, afaik.

If you're going to swap those white boxes around, it might be best to shout louder to let people know and add a bit more time on those two. Your call, of course.
But since I instigated this, I'd better post my offers on those in public so that it's clear I have no ulterior motive.

1) FINE non-OCE white box, 4/4/4 books, 4 sheets; $250 (or $300 if paste-over address label in M&M is absent)
2) FAIR non-OCE white box, 5/3/6 books, ?5/6 sheets; $60

  

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Post Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:47 pm 
 

5/3/6 If you guys say so, OK for me.

Not so happy if that means someone has walked-off with your original set, though


The only reason I still have this really old woodgrain was that I was kind of embarassed to be lugging it around, working for TSR, and all...
I seemed to "LOSE" a booklet or two just about every major con Tournament.

I think you have the correct 4th sheets as displayed.
Those are unique to the 4th print owing to the way the correction page is "pasted" on the front -- and cannot be replaced by any other correction/ref sheet set.


Maybe not.
The "front" has errata only, LizMan logo, TSR Rules. That alone would make it older as "Rules" was used only a short time.

However, I believe the other set is older, much older. For one thing, it is on a light card stock, not paper like the other. For another, the publ. is listed as Tactical Sudies Rules. The back has Maps: Treasure tables; inside the front and back is one table called "The Monsters". This could very well be from my first set... It may be that this item should go separately.

Does it have an address label pasted over the address at the foot of the stock list?


Yes, it has label.


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