City State of the World Emperor Question
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Post Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 10:41 pm 
 

Greetings all,

I have a copy of the Judges Guild CITY STATE OF THE WORLD EMPEROR that I'm looking to sell, but don't know if I have the entire set or not...

Here's what I do have:
--SHOPS booklet
--CITY booklet
--GUIDEBOOK MAP 6 booklet
--large full-color foldout map (eight sections when all folded up, is laminated but can still be folded up -- is this original, or did the previous owner most likely do this??)
--two large brown foldout maps "City State of the World Emperor Campaign Map Six"; one is very detailed, while the other has landmarks but very few names, etc. I'd assume the detailed one is the DM map while the sketchy one is the player map.

Can anyone tell me if this is the entire set, or am I missing stuff?  I'd hate to tout this as "complete" and then have someone more knowledgable come along and point out my gaffe...   :oops:

Also, any worth estimates for this set?? They've been carefully stored in sheet protectors and look to be possibly near mint, or very fine at the very least.

Thanks for your time,
John aka Wandering Monster

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 12:14 am 
 

It sounds complete, as long as the laminated map is that of the city state itself, and it sure sounds like it. The two brown maps are, as you surmise, the Judges Cartography and the Players Cartography. Just make sure both say "City State of the World Emperor Campaign Map Six" on them, and one says Judges and the other Players — there are 17 other maps that they could be, and I've seen sets mixed up before.

Definitely worth calling complete, though with the lamination of the map it is certainly not a mint set. As to the sheet protectors... do you mean each booklet was cut and pages put into sheet protectors singly and held in a ring binder, or were they maintained complete in the old-style clear booklet protector-folders with the holder bar that held the book in at the staples pages? Or something else?

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:33 am 
 

Sounds complete to me.

keltic71.tripod.com/Universal-Fantasy/j ... peror.html

The information on this JG index is pretty lousy and out of date, but its the best there is online ATM.


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Post Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:34 pm 
 

Greetings!

The three books were intact (not cut apart) and were stored inside of an Avery PV119 Sheet Protector.

The maps are both Campaign Map Six, one is Judges, the other is Players, I noticed after reading your posts.

The laminated map does say in red ink "City State of the World Emperor."

And thanks for the JG web link as well!   :D

Does anyone have a value estimate on a set like this???

Best,
John aka Wandering Monster

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:53 am 
 

Wandering Monster wrote:Does anyone have a value estimate on a set like this???

You could expect anywhere between $30 and $60 for it, depending on how well you set out your stall, how complete your description, how good your photos and how proffessionally the laminate was applied to the city map.

Take a look at the selling tips thread....

http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2144


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Post Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 4:56 am 
 

Holy cow!

I should have checked on your auction earlier, as I just found it on eBay...

I did not realize that there were two major *different* printings, or so it seems, of the CSWE!

The set you have, presuming this is yours (and it certainly seems to be):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 85653&rd=1

is NOT the same as the one I have. Major differences:

1) Your books are each labeled "Approved for use with Dungeons & Dragons," while mine are not;

2) Your "Shops" book is brown, while mine is in full color;

3) My "Shops" book is not expressely labeled as such in the upper left hand corner; instead, it has a yellow box at an angle, listing of the items included in the shrink-wrapped package;

4) Mine has a product code and price in the lower right-hand corner, yours does not (the code is 150, the price is $12).

I knew from speaking with Bob that CSWE went through at least two printings, but I did not know there were such major differences between them! It's obvious that at least one printing (yours) was done while Judges Guild still had the D&D license, and mine was done later, after the license was revoked/lapsed. So there are at least two major printings of the CSWE, one D&D, one not, though the CSWE that is not D&D still uses D&D rules, not the Judges Guild Universal System.

My books are copyright 1982 on the inside.

The maps appear to be the same (not counting the laminating), but I recall Bob mentioned that they had printed those up in massive quantities from the get go, in anticipation of using them as the print runs on the books ran down and for sale individually without the books (that's why Lou Zocchi had piles of the maps for sale at conventions for two decades after JG closed; he got nearly a pallet load of them with his last buy out).

I'm not sure at this point what your printing is really worth; it might be worth the same as the printing I have, or it might be rarer. There's just not enough evidence out there, as far as I know, one way or the other. I'll give Bob a call today and find out if he can recall anything on print run numbers.

Looking in my copy of The Judges Guild Journal #19 (Feb/Mar 80), and in it it mentions that this issue includes the "first part of the long-awaited CSWE," in this case, the two Wilderlands maps and a 16-page booklet describing the region — material that would certainly have been added into the Guidebook Map 6 in the full published version. The magazine also mentions that the plan at that time was to publish the full city state in two books, each at least 64 pages long, with the map of the city, hopefully in time for Origins (June 27-29) or Michicon (June 6-8).

It appears the 80-page Shops book was included as the Guildmember premium in #20 (Apr/May 80), and the 80-page City book in #21 (Jun/Jul 80), in which it was announced that the complete city, with an expanded 48-page Guidebook Map 6, two Wilderlands maps, and the state map, could be bought separately for $12. The Booty List from the same issue lists it as "Approved for use with Dungeons & Dragons," so yours may well be a 1st printing, though there is no way to tell that I am aware of...

Interesting note I just discovered... though the editorial in #19 lists the booklet included as being 16-pages, the Booty List in #21 distinctly lists it as being the full 48-page booklet. Hmmm... more food for thought.

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 5:50 am 
 

There are at least four printings of this product that I know of, and other than minor cover and booty list differenced, they all appear to be essentially the same.

Over the past year since I've been watching the JG stuff, there doesn't seem to be a price differentiation between printings on eBay. Price seems to be dictated by condition and the presentation of the auction itself.

It is a different matter for CSIO, where first printing still commands a premium.

I really like the map BTW. It looks like it has been proffessionally laminated. I wouldn't be surprised if that adds to the price, but then $50 is a good price anyhow.

I might put one up for auction at that price. :D


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Post Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 6:57 pm 
 

Hi James!

Yes, that is my auction currently up on eBay (ending on Sunday, May 22nd).

Thanks for all the info on the various printings of the JG CSotWE -- I'm surprised that the Acaeum doesn't do a printings/value history of the Judges Guild stuff the same way they do for the official TSR merchandise.  After all, JG was a licensee, and for many years the only company to get permission from TSR, yes?

And thanks again to everyone else for all their assistance in my quest for information!   :D

Cheers,
John aka Wandering Monster

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:25 pm 
 

Wandering Monster wrote:I'm surprised that the Acaeum doesn't do a printings/value history of the Judges Guild stuff the same way they do for the official TSR merchandise. After all, JG was a licensee, and for many years the only company to get permission from TSR, yes?
And thanks again to everyone else for all their assistance in my quest for information!  :D

Cheers,
John aka Wandering Monster


I want to do a printings/history of the JG items, and am slowly working on that with compiling information from various sites, plus my own items. I don't know about the pricing part of it though. You can get SW items even now for things that are almost 30 years old. Plus JG would sell maps, booklets, etc seperate throughout the years. If someone wants to tackle that part, go for it.

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Post Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:33 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:I want to do a printings/history of the JG items, and am slowly working on that with compiling information from various sites, plus my own items. I don't know about the pricing part of it though. You can get SW items even now for things that are almost 30 years old. Plus JG would sell maps, booklets, etc seperate throughout the years. If someone wants to tackle that part, go for it.
ShaneG.

Shane, have you had a word with Frank <Deadlord36>?
Subweb idea

(Not to mention Alan, Ian and the others...).

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 21, 2005 7:58 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Shane, have you had a word with Frank <Deadlord36>?
Subweb idea

(Not to mention Alan, Ian and the others...).


Hum, no.. but thanks for the link cause that is what I want to do.
Is it still going on or the project put on hold? Anyone in the know?

ShaneG.

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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:20 am 
 

Shane,

Price aside, there is a lot of knowledge on the board that could be useful to you if you're trying to compile a printing history. Particularily of the early JG stuff.

Both myself and Frank have extensive collections of the earlier items, printings which are not recorded on the internet at present. Between us we've managed to establish that the online record of FFC and Tegel are inaccurute.

Alan has probably one of the largest collections of later JG stuff that I know of. All three of us have talked about the possibility of putting together a more accurate JG print history, and with Acaeum having the server capacity and the hits and reputation it would be foolish to ignore the board.

If you think you can do this alone, good luck to you. I certainly wouldn't  try without running my findings through the notable collectors in the field.

I very much doubt you have access to the two (possibly 3) printings of JG2, the five CSIOs, four CSWEs, five Tegels and three FFCs, all of which are wrongly listed online at present.


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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:51 am 
 

It seems that planning to get online the JG items seems the most logical development of the Acaeum archive.

Those adventure and supplements have been around the longest time, are beginning to arouse interest in collectionists, and sometimes are very fun as well.

If someone is willing to embark on this quest, I'd be more than willing to help in what I can - as my collection of JG things is not this large (ten inches wide).

Franz


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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:01 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Alan has probably one of the largest collections of later JG stuff that I know of. All three of us have talked about the possibility of putting together a more accurate JG print history, and with Acaeum having the server capacity and the hits and reputation it would be foolish to ignore the board.

If you think you can do this alone, good luck to you. I certainly wouldn't try without running my findings through the notable collectors in the field.

I very much doubt you have access to the two (possibly 3) printings of JG2, the five CSIOs, four CSWEs, five Tegels and three FFCs, all of which are wrongly listed online at present.


:D yes um i get carried away hoarding JG stuff. once my next lot arrives my collection will increase something like 20-fold, but thats to sell, but i will be keeping 1 or 2 back of everything for myself/research etc.

What Ian states is correct. There are quite a few guys on Acaeum who have a lot of JG stuff and duplicates of various prints and pointers with regards to information elsewhere.

Between the few of us who are really into JG products, compiling all that information, BEFORE you go off on the crusade you are currently preparing, would be an invaluable base of information imo.

Apart from what Ian states there, i am also in disagreement with some of the JG information held elsewhere.

For instance, i am not convinced at all, on the information provided with regards to JG 66 Sea Steeds & Wave Riders, amongst a goodly number of other things.

But good luck on your endeavours! If i can help in any small way, i will! i can provide scans of items i have etc. I picked up some nice SW Island I's the other day which i am really chuffed with, as well as some others, which i DONT come across that often either. I also have diff. print Tegal's now, as well as a number of Wilderlands of the Magic Realms, 1st 2nd and 3rd, and a goodly smattering of other more rarer items, like CSIO (ian has more than me), and i have two FFC too.

Believe me, even using other sites for research, the quest to correlate everything correctly, certainly isnt as simple as it seems!

But i am with Ian, i think JG stuff definately needs to be recorded in full and i for one give the thumbs up to that idea!!

Al

ps. my JG collection dwarfs everything else that i have - at the moment i have prb about 1500-2000 books, and am expecting a massive delivery shortly which will increase that dramatically, so i have lots of resource to help you with, if you want it.



  

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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:56 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:Alan has probably one of the largest collections of later JG stuff that I know of. All three of us have talked about the possibility of putting together a more accurate JG print history, and with Acaeum having the server capacity and the hits and reputation it would be foolish to ignore the board.

If you think you can do this alone, good luck to you. I certainly wouldn't try without running my findings through the notable collectors in the field.

I very much doubt you have access to the two (possibly 3) printings of JG2, the five CSIOs, four CSWEs, five Tegels and three FFCs, all of which are wrongly listed online at present.


Believe me, even using other sites for research, the quest to correlate everything correctly, certainly isnt as simple as it seems!

But i am with Ian, i think JG stuff definately needs to be recorded in full and i for one give the thumbs up to that idea!!

Al

ps. my JG collection dwarfs everything else that i have - at the moment i have prb about 1500-2000 books, and am expecting a massive delivery shortly which will increase that dramatically, so i have lots of resource to help you with, if you want it.


I would be a fool to not want help. I really only started 'collecting' JG items two years ago after playing in an updated Tegel Manor run by Bill Owen. So I'll ask away when I get things in better order. Hum..well let me ask these first then. Did JG always have the same prices on the covers for each printing?
And personal question as it seems there are truckloads of stuff still SWed out there. Would it even be feasible to try pricing these items? Is there any difference in numbers of each printing?

Questions aside, it was three years ago at Gen Con that I was witness to a huge binder filled with pages of typed material for an unpublished Citystate of the Mage (I believe that was what it was called). Now I don't know if Bob Bledsaw has plans of releasing it himself or through Necromancer Games, as it seems NG is only doing Judges Guild items slowly depending on how well they sell. Who knows.

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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:25 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Questions aside, it was three years ago at Gen Con that I was witness to a huge binder filled with pages of typed material for an unpublished Citystate of the Mage (I believe that was what it was called). Now I don't know if Bob Bledsaw has plans of releasing it himself or through Necromancer Games, as it seems NG is only doing Judges Guild items slowly depending on how well they sell. Who knows.


That would be Tula: City State of Mages. I can't recall off the top of my head which of Bob's writers is working on that. I know it was complete, though as it was written for a home campaign some years ago, it was all still in AD&D 2E IIRC. Whether that will end up being published by Necromancer Games, Judges Guild, or a third licensed party has yet to be seen.

The other complete city state is the City State of the Sea Kings, by Chris Bernhardt. Chris announced on the JG boards last September that he was going to publish it, though nothing has been heard since then. Chris intends for it to be published under the Judges Guild label.

The massive Wilderlands of High Fantasy boxed set will be released at Gen Con. This includes all the Wilderlands setting information, expanded and updated for 3E. It's freaking huge. Single lines of data from the classic Wilderlands books ahve been updated to multi-paragraph entries. All 18 maps will be included in the boxed set (Judges only, though), and I keep hearing that they might be in color rather than black and white, though I'm not sure where that decision last stood. Also, a 3E version of Tegel Manor is in the works, by Necromancer Games, for a late Fall 2005 release.

There are a number of other new editions of old JG products that have been announced by Necromancer Games, but have no prospective release date.

Judges Guild itself right now consists of Bob and a bunch of folks who want to help him, but can only do so in their spare time (me, for example). With game publishing being in the current state it is in (i.e., a recession following the d20 Glut), it is difficult if not impossible to bring out a profitable d20 product from a new company, which is essentially what Judges Guild would be. I've discussed many of the reasons for this on the Judges Guild boards.

Lately I've been looking into the whole "Print on Demand" situation as a solution for Bob to publish products and build up a name again. The issue there is maintaining a reasonable retail cost with the higher print costs of POD. But I believe it to be a far better option than PDF (though PDF certainly has its place).

Then there are strategic alliances to consider with other game companies, like the one with Necromancer Games. Time will tell on those...

  

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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:45 pm 
 

I'm not a great fan of D20 and all the incarnations and resurrections that have been bread from it.
I imagine the present offerings in the JG line are pretty to look at, given the advances in printing technology over the intervening quarter century, but there must surely be a distinction between the JG we all know from our childhood, and the dead horses that have been flogged by Mayfair and NG, whatever their pedegree.


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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 6:04 pm 
 

(02 cents, only)

jamesmishler wrote:Lately I've been looking into the whole "Print on Demand" situation as a solution for Bob to publish products and build up a name again. The issue there is maintaining a reasonable retail cost with the higher print costs of POD. But I believe it to be a far better option than PDF (though PDF certainly has its place).

"Higher" costs?
S'pose it does depend on the format you want vs. what the current technology is more geared towards.

As noted on another thread, I can POD 50, 100, however many, 120 page octavo paperbacks with glossy covers for under 4 bucks a piece, so there's more than ample scope for some such "solution" or "part-solution", I'd've hoped.
Even with Amazon taking a huge slice, is possible to list through them at under $10 and make money.

OK, it's not good ol' JG larger format newsprint (*g*) and there's the issue of maps, but it's a mark to compare against, phps.
Anyhow, does everything really "need" to be huge multi-book printings with full color at the end of the day?

Sounds interesting, anyhow...

  

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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 6:05 pm 
 

Just a thought...

As the old 1st and 2nd edition AD&D is still getting lots of attention, especially by the old dogs like us  :lol: , I was wondering who owns the rights to those systems.

I mean, it would be interesting to publish new scenarios for old rules. Or not?


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Post Posted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:18 pm 
 

rosenkav wrote:Just a thought...

As the old 1st and 2nd edition AD&D is still getting lots of attention, especially by the old dogs like us :lol: , I was wondering who owns the rights to those systems.

I mean, it would be interesting to publish new scenarios for old rules. Or not?


Wizards of the Coast still owns those entirely. They have been licensed out to Kenzer & Company as the core of the HackMaster RPG. Whether that license is exclusive or someone else could get a license to produce products for "First Edition AD&D" or "Second Edition AD&D," I don't know. I doubt WotC would be willing to license those rules out without an extensive fee; after all, ostensibly, part of the reason there is a d20/OGL license is to get others to publish adventures and source books in order to help WotC sell their core books for Third Edition.

I am not a lawyer, mind you, but, if you publish things the same way that other third-party publishers did back in the day, not mentioning the AD&D name and changing the names of the stats and so forth (what Heinlein called "filing off the serial numbers") you could probably get away with it. But the odds are you'd lose a lot of money on it, even if WotC didn't choose to sue you. After all, if there was a viable market for it, WotC would already be doing it... remember, they don't publish 3E instead of 1E/2E because they hate the system... they publish it because there isn't a large enough market to make it profitable. Heck, the 3E market is barely profitable these days, let me tell you!

Remember, back in the day TSR sued Mayfair over RoleAids, and never actually won in court; that came down to a settlement, which Mayfair screwed up with their release of "Witches" — which gave TSR a solid ground for a lawsuit. TSR never *successfully* sued to judgment anyone for using a "similar system compatible with;" all they ever did was threaten to sue by sending a Cease & Desist or, on rare occasion, actually file. Unless there was outright plagarism or trademark infringement, it would have been a difficult and expensive case to pursue, even for TSR. But that's not to say that they *wouldn't* sue. Same goes for WotC.

If you are small enough and quiet enough — and being designed for AD&D, unless you go out of your way to be noticed, you probably would be — you might get away without a C&D. Odds are you'll end up losing a lot of money anyway...

But again, I'm not a lawyer, and this is in no way legal advise.

Overall if you still wanted to do something like this, my advise would be... don't. If you want to throw your money away, just write a check to me, and I can throw it away for you for a nominal fee... there's a nice dump nearby. :)

  
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