1st print Players Handbook- to be True or not True
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:59 pm 
 

I just recently aquired a NM PHB that has the orange flyleaf. The Acaem says that a True first has a white flyleaf. If the white came before the orange why is there such a drastic price worth when that is the only difference between the two?


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:13 pm 
 

Secondly with that PHB I got a 1st print DMG in NM condition, the one with the orange flyleaf. If the 1st print DMG is orange and the 2nd is white could it possible be true of the PHB? Hmmmmm :?


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:20 pm 
 

You'll have to ask Scott why he put such a price on the True First Print PHB. I guess its rarity played a factor in the dramatic price increase which I don't really agree with.  Perhaps there could be a true first dmg and a true first mm!

  

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Post Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:18 am 
 

Scott's line of reasoning may be that the later prints, 2nd - 6th, had the yellow flyleaf. Making the books that match the first print every other way, except the flyleat, oddities and rarer. Which one really came first?, who knows.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:20 am 
 

8O Damn it! I just discoverd that the PHB has the 2 perforated sheets torn out! Does this affect collectors worth? :cry:


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Post Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:33 am 
 

Any sort of damage to an item dramatically lowers its value to collectors. Afraid so Kosh  :cry: Keep it for nostalgia instead of thinking of selling it.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:40 am 
 

Does anyone REALLY know? I begged this question of Scott after I saw the new listing for a "true 1st" print of the PHB... If anyone is interested in his reasoning, I'll email you what he sent to me.  It makes some sense, but I really can't swallow all of it. My gut instinct tells me differently ;)  But rather than bite the hand that feeds us information and helps make this forum a possibility, I'll remain silent and dissapointed... for now.[/i]

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 3:39 pm 
 

Hi Rick  I suppose no one can really know for sure unless they were actually involved in the printing of those items. If the alleged true first print has a much lower circulation it logically might be a first printing by default. But who is to say they didn't run a different color flyleaf at the end of the first printings? At this point I would have to agree with what Rick infers here and file this item equilivant to other fluke upside down printings, etc until there is some kind of overwhelming proof it is a first print.  It is natural to disagree in this hobby because not everything is written in stone at this point. I would expect that a few  of these types of questions may never be known. It is good to have a voice though with these forums. :wink:   Later. Adam


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:45 am 
 

Hi again all...  Thanks Adam - glad I'm not necessarily the only one that this situation sounds strange to.  Does anyone around here know someone in the print industry that provided services for TSR? A long long shot, maybe? Is that even possible?  I do think that this will become more important dowm the road - the  only cited difference was the white flyleaf, which Scott said was a major change; major enough to call for a separate listing! According to the new listing, I lost money on my first print :(. Hey!!! Oh well, one more thing to find, right? ;)  As I told Scott, my inference was not that owners with verified copies were lying about just what they had, but more to just what Adam surmised from my post...  Alas, we may never know. Hmmm... ignorance is bliss... sometimes.  Swords sharp! Rick

  


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:40 pm 
 

Well, if you want an upside down PHB like mentioned. Then here it is....  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 3122826729   :lol:  Later. Adam


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:58 pm 
 

Hey Gang,   For the sake of brevity I will refer you to a topic that I started last year in the General Discussion forum. It is titled: "First Print Players Handbook with White Flyleaf"... Check it out-- it may answer some questions... I have been fortunate to have acquired one of these extremely rare copies about 18 months ago.  From all my research I was able to locate only one other (maybe 2 (?)-- can't remember) owner(s) of a First Print with White fly..  I corresponded with Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer concerning this anomaly.  They were both interested, particularly Gary..  Let me know if you uncover any more info on this interesting copy! I have written Scott, but am waiting for his reply.  Here is the link to the forum topic:  First Print PLAYERS HANDBOOK w/ WHITE Flyleaf !   Thanks gang!    -Bazul

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:40 pm 
 

I find it somewhat disconcerting that a large number of people use the Acaeum as a "set in stone" guideline for pricing. I'd like everyone to keep in mind that ONE INDIVIDUAL sets the prices here. If you go by auction prices vs. Acaeum prices, you will see that there is usually a sizeable discrepancy. I collect different printings of items, but I wouldn't pay $100+ for a "true" 1st PHB merely because one person says it is super rare. It may be that it is, but I prefer to find out more. The same thing goes on with Cthulthu versions of Deities. It was NEVER rare, never pulled, they just discontinued the mythoi after 2 printings. Yet people pay big $$ for them.


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:14 pm 
 

This is a mighty intersting subject you brought up. Basically, I believe the only true price for an item is that determined on the market. But the market participants are influenced somehow, mainly because they are looking for guidelines. This is logical - if you want to sell or buy something you don't know the value of there are basically two possibilities: You wait until you see the same item sold or you look for expert advise. In the collecting hobby there are usually catalogs with price lists. Those prices are set by a group of pros, sometimes by very doubtful methods (or no methods at all). I once asked the publishers of the no.1 stamp collecting catalogs here in Germany how they determined the prices for stamps. They answered that they make up the prices by looking for the <i>highest prices</i> for stamps offered by commercial resellers. I didn't believe it, this is totally ridicolous! That has little to do with the real market value of stamps. I am not a stamp collector myself, but I have read a lot of complaints by stamp collectors who estimated the overall value of their collection on the base of these catalogue prices and they were disillusioned when they tried to sell it off and the best offer wouldn't be half the estimated value ...



Now with collecting RPG items the situation is even more difficult. How many serious RPG collectors are out there compared to stamp collectors? People are dying for advice - and the Acaeum seems to offer a save haven because here is obviously a pro at work.



Price lists like those offered at Olav Riedigers website are better -  but only for the regular items with more than 3 or so annual sales (plus, as described on the Acaeum FAQ they cannot determine all items or auctions).



The super-rare items can hardly be judged of their true value. Even if you had information like how many copies were produced (and when) or better yet how many copies might circulate today, this is only one half of the information needed. What about the demand? If there were only 100 items produced, but there are only 2 people who want it, the item is rare but worthless.



So if you want reliable info on regular items you should look for auction statistics like the one Olav offers. I don't know the percentage of correctly identified auctions that those automated software gets, but it should be sufficient. For those unidentifiable auctions -  they should be manually scanned. For a market like the US market this can hardly be done by a single person (and only if we paid for it). This job would have to be shared by the community. It's probably the only way to get serious price lists. This would be the best we might get and these lists still wouldn't consider printings or condition.



Personally, I love the Acaeum for the richness of information and this beautiful forum. I don't look at the price lists often, mainly because I'm buying on the German market and this one is small enough to scan it semi-automatically, so I keep my own price lists ...

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 3:02 pm 
 

URL for Olav?


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:07 pm 
 

http://quadrium.homelinux.org/~or/

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:11 pm 
 

SHOCK! I haven't visitied the site in some time and I just realized that Olav is now SELLING his info! Whoaa... I'm really disappointed. I think I should finish my own software and put the info online again. for free as it should be! Sorry for that one.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:22 am 
 

Yeah, as much as I love the Acaeum, I hate it when people base their auction reserves on it.  What some people expect their stuff to fetch is absolutely laughable sometimes...  I'm almost tempted to email them and offer a tenth of what they want just to be insulting.  I mean, when we sell stuff, we ALL want it to go for alot, but having a starting bid of $50 for something that normally sells for $15 is lunacy.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:23 am 
 

I've also been questioned the price of the true first print...  frankly I think there might be way more copies out there than people realize, just because well, they don't realize what they've got.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:27 am 
 

I believe the white flyleaf is not as populus as the orange. I've been diligently going over every PHB auction on ebay and when I see a pic of the 1st-3rd print I ask the seller about the flyleaf and every time its orange. The seller replies that I was the X# person to ask that and why it was so important. I then get into the delima of "Should I direct them to the Acaeum so that they can learn about the various prints or keep them in the dark as to its rarity" :? If I tell them about it am I selling out the rest of the collecting community and if they know what its rarity/worth is will that in turn drive up prices into yet another high bidding frenzy? This in turn will bring up prices all over the spectrum of the XD&D items on ebay which will put some mid ranged priced items way out of reach for us poor smucks who cannot afford such high prices. Then the items never sell and then the sellers just want to make room in their attics so they lump everything they have into an aution lot and Cougarretard snatches them all up and corners the market :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:



Boy I'm getting a headache



Ahh its great to be back in the States!


"Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song."

"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

  
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