PDFs and collectable prices
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 7:11 pm 
 

In the same nature that the Adventurers Guilds modules' low quality production affects their prices, do you think the Wizards/SV Games pdf files of out-of-print TSR modules has affected the collectable price of the originals?  I would have loved to get an orange B3 or the Jade Hare but having the pdf files has set me back on owning them.  Ã

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:11 pm 
 

I definately think the pdf's have hurt the prices of modules. Many players that I talk to mention that they would have bought the actual module if a pdf was not available. I think it was a mistake to have released items like the jade hare on pdf because its easily available to download and noone has to pay a jade hare price to get it.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:46 pm 
 

Jade Hare:  I think it really hurt the value for the people that have the coverless version.  Ã

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:55 pm 
 

My personal opinion is that pdf files have caused a decrease in prices, this is especialy true for people wishing to only have the item to play, if its an origional or a pdf , who cares, the pdf printes as good as the origional. I would say this has greatly affected those items in good or less condition, items that are very good+ will still attact those willing to pay higher prices for an origional module in good condition.   Now how much is a pdf file worth, my opinion ZERO Dollars! Once one file is out there they seem to multiply of their own free will. I can go right now and download most (if not all) the pdf versions of AD&D files, some of them origional some of them scanned of books not done, Why would anyone pay for one when you can do that?? and when they are not paying for an origional or pdf, demand falls and with it prices...  At the end of the day I would much rather have an origional module 100% of the time no matter what the condition rather than a PDF or other electronic file.... in truth I would rather not have the item than a pdf   also on the sale of pdf files, every so often you can see something like this...  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=2545  hmm....cost $55 and you get, what 200 odd items? (sorry can't be bothered counting em) cost to seller, 1 cd and time to burn it! and its not the first time he has done it as well...  also another pet peve of mine is photocopied items!!! Another item that is worthless in my opinion!! (the only ones that I know that were approved , were some photocopies of some Judges Guild items...)   Brette:)

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:06 am 
 

Hey Brette, I have to agree. Playing/having a actual module beats having pdfs of that same module. Much different feeling you can agree. Imagine looking through an actual players handbook compared to looking at a pdf on the computer. On a bright side, the people who have pdfs need to print out many pages if they want to take the info with them during a game, etc.  PDFs have absolutely no value. With 1 pdf, you can make millions of them. Just like that auction you showed. People download them and then sell it to others for a profit.  Photocopies have no value as well. All of us must do our part in finding people who produce fakes and try to sell them as real. Kind of like those jade hares that one seller was selling which were fake..... I'm sure most of you know who I am talking about!!

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:21 pm 
 

beasterbrook wrote:also on the sale of pdf files, every so often you can see something like this...  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=2545
 and just to prove he is doing it again and again.....  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=2545  I also see the D&D cartoon regularly for auction on ebay as well.... now sure I would like  a copy of em but why pay anywhere near this amount of money for something that is basically an illegal copy???

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:25 pm 
 

Of course the pdf's have affected the price, a bit, as now people don't have to buy a 2nd hand item just to read it, so there's a bit less demand for run of the mill stuff.   Im happy 'cos i buy D&D mainly for the pleasure of reading them, so pdfs suit me fine.  The pdf's themselves vary in quality as well - some are "proper" pdfs, all neat and digital - but the copies of BX10 and that I-? whos number I forget (the one that collects the "R"'s) that I bought (from SV games) were frankly shoddy. Simple dumb scans - not nice, barely legible especially the text on grey backgrounds.  ...as for WOTC revenue, I would have happily shelled out a fair bit for some good value pdfs when they first came out but they wouldnt sell to me in the UK! ...And later SV games' website wouldnt accept my order, until I ticked the shipping charge box - I was desperate and assumed I could get it refunded - they never replied to my email.... The point of my rant is I dont give a flying **** about pdf piracy, because WOTC and SV are ****s, Games Workshop are ******** ****s, and everyone else went bust so its not hurting anyone....

  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:30 am 
 

As someone how owns nearly 650 pdf's (that's right...I said own), I think I will throw my two cents into the fray...I, like many other collectors, probably don't want to take out their orange B3 on the train to work in the morning so a pdf file definitely serves a purpose.  The real debate is how much they have hurt the collectable market.  I think they have virtually destroyed the market for lesser quality items, however I believe the high quality items are still holding steady.   I think a perfect example of this could be seen with the ST1 auction going on right now.  If a .pdf for the ST1 existed (maybe one does), do you think that auction going on right now for that one would be at $850 bucks.  I don't think so.  However, if Malcolm was throwing one of his 'pristine' babies out there, I could easily see myself indulging at this price.  A pdf will never measure up to a crinkly shrinkwrapped module.  At least to me anyway, but there is nothing better than dumping one to the printer before you go and take a dump! (It's late and I am tired, sorry. :cry: )

  


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 3:48 am 
 

The people selling those D&D cartoons do get in trouble by ebay and receive reprocussions for selling the cartoons. I knew a guy who did that and got in trouble by ebay.  One thing I am wondering about the pdfs is if some have a built in mechanism were you can only use them for a limited time? I know a lot of software (shareware) do that by giving you a limited time to use the item before it expires and cannot be used. Maybe there are some pdfs like that?

  


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 4:30 am 
 

Electronic releases sereve their purpose, I guess.  Look at To the city of Brass. I have the Blackmoor supplement in PDF but nothing other then that, since I haven't played in 10+ years.  If I can't get the real thing, I just go without it.  While I wouldn't bother with them, Xerox copies don't upset me - so long as no one tries to pass them off as the real thing.  Bootleg material (unless it was done on a scale never before attempted, i.e. a true printing press reprint) is, in my oppinion, worthless.


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:42 pm 
 

beasterbrook wrote: and just to prove he is doing it again and again.....
 and again... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=2545  and again... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=2545  except now of course he is charging $60...LOL geez...

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 3:52 am 
 

Not sure of the copyright laws, but this is not allowed right? Someone should contact ebay and report this person.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:50 pm 
 

Mkman wrote:Not sure of the copyright laws, but this is not allowed right? Someone should contact ebay and report this person.
 Yes, but we have no way of knowing that he didn't pay for the downloads. (I doubt it, or he wouldn't be selling the CDs so 'cheap,' but. . . .)

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:49 pm 
 

Some of the modules in the list are not pdfs from the companies but from alt.binaries.e-book.rpg, kazaa, ...  Ã

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:47 am 
 

If this guy is not on the level, please excuse my French; he is a fucking dick!  I know stuff like this happens, but being so friggen blatant is just obscene. :evil:

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:43 am 
 

Len is all fired up!! Go get him Len! :wink:   Its not right he is profitting from all this! And some people are actually paying him!  PS. Len did you have to pay for your pdfs or were most of them free dls? I know there are many free dl pdfs but then there are also pdfs that you have to pay for.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:37 am 
 

OK, I am not a lawyer (phew) but i thought I would stick my pennysworth in anyway.  I am pretty sure it is illegal to copy modules etc.. and sell them (i.e. not simply for your personal use) under most countries jurisdictions.  For example; in the UK, copyright for a novel lasts for 50 years after your death (I think).  Interestingly, however I have been offered PDFs of MERP modules (all of them) for sale - as long as I sign a waiver stating that I own the said books.  So, in that case could the person then argue that they were simply providing a copying service??  Perplexed of London.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:19 pm 
 

red_bus wrote:OK, I am not a lawyer (phew) but i thought I would stick my pennysworth in anyway.  I am pretty sure it is illegal to copy modules etc.. and sell them (i.e. not simply for your personal use) under most countries jurisdictions.  For example; in the UK, copyright for a novel lasts for 50 years after your death (I think).
 Right.  Though you're not allowed to copy it for your personal use, either, unless you own the original.  
red_bus wrote:Interestingly, however I have been offered PDFs of MERP modules (all of them) for sale - as long as I sign a waiver stating that I own the said books.  So, in that case could the person then argue that they were simply providing a copying service??
 Nope -- both parties are still doing something illegal.  Most published copyrights have the phrase "may not be reproduced whole or in part without the express written consent of the publisher".  If you truly do own the original, yes, a court isn't going to argue with you if you're making a copy for your own personal use (and you're not using that copy to make money, or to publish somewhere else, etc).  But that right does not extend to a third party -- in your case, the seller does not have permission to make a copy of anything, much less make a profit from this copy.  You, as the buyer, could certainly get dragged into the lawsuit as well; a judge is not likely to believe that you found it more convenient to purchase a copy off eBay instead of going down to Kinko's.  People who are foolish enough to peddle copyrighted material on eBay are running a huge risk.  Large companies like WotC / Hasbro probably have at least one person employed whose primary job is to scour the Internet and eBay, looking for people who are making a profit off their published works.  Lastly, in response to an earlier post -- eBay will not pay any attention to you, or I, if we bring these sellers to the attention of their fraud department.  They will only entertain complaints from the copyright holder / intellectual property holder themselves; therefore, if you're really steamed at these people, contact WotC about it directly and let them take action.  Foul

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:08 pm 
 

Mike said:
PS. Len did you have to pay for your pdfs or were most of them free dls? I know there are many free dl pdfs but then there are also pdfs that you have to pay for.
 In the beginning WOTC made roughly 100 pdfs free (to wet everyone's appetite I suppose).  They then started selling them at 2.49 or 2.99. (I can't remember which) I bought practically everyone they had at this price.  Now the prices stand at 5 bucks a pop which is tough to swallow, so I only pick up 10 or so a month (depending on what gets released).  At first, I would buy 20 and a friend would buy 20 and we would trade, but that stopped after the novelty wore off (for my friend) and when it seemed the quality of the pdf's took a hit.  (They went from being real text to 300dpi scans that are OCR'd) .  I know I can use mIRC to go out there and download everyone of them but I choose not to.  I am a big fan of Bastion Press (they do the scans and because I like Jim Butler) and want to help them as well.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:20 pm 
 

I think I already said it in an earlier post but WOTC does have 2-3 people who scour ebay looking for auctions that are peddling illegal copyright materials. That adv guild module lot easily could have been taken off of ebay but I didn't tip them off or let them know since I had some requests from other collectors to let the auction stay so they can find out how much AG items go for. Another seller of AG last year got in trouble by WOTC for selling authentic AG modules. WOTC has made it clear that retailers are not allowed to sell AG modules

  
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