Lamination on the covers of rare books
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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:49 pm 
 

How would that affect values?
And how would it affect condition grading?

Reason I ask is that I recently purchased a rare book that is in fact laminated.
The lamination is on the front and rear of the book and wraps into the inside of the cover (front and back).

Seller did NOT mention anything about the lamination and the pictures shown (five total) did not show any evidence of it either.
The book appears to have been unread because the pages are real tight when opening, i.e. the binding is not flexible. The corners of the cover, front and back, and pages, are all sharp. The book lays perfectly flat; no bends or warping.....
The only fault I see in this book is the owner wrote his initials in blue pen on the top right corner of the first page. There are no marks or writing in the book .


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:00 pm 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:How would that affect values?
And how would it affect condition grading?

Reason I ask is that I recently purchased a rare book that is in fact laminated.
The lamination is on the front and rear of the book and wraps into the inside of the cover (front and back).

Seller did NOT mention anything about the lamination and the pictures shown (five total) did not show any evidence of it either.


To me lamination would be pretty heavy damage to a collectable. I have to rate something like that as in poor condition.


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:22 pm 
 

Sigh….

I have had really bad luck lately with sellers lying (by omission, and straight up) in descriptions for rare items on e-Bay.

As an aside: Just got another large package today with two box sets inside.
The two box sets were just loose sitting inside a much larger box/package.
And BOTH boxes were taped (top and bottom of the boxes)!
I know the seller did that as the contents were shown in pictures in the listing and there is no doubt they are the same sets.


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:31 pm 
 

Lamination is usually a deal breaker for me too.  Its probably worse than having the name in pen inside.  However, with the name in pen on the inside, I would consider the book in a lower grade already so maybe the addition of lamination doesn't degrade it too much more (but definitely a bit).

To quanitfy, probably either name or lamination would degrade it 50% then the additional afront another 25%.

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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:38 pm 
 

IMO, it depends on how professional the lamination was placed, and the quality of the product used. If the original installation has creases, bubbles, inconsistencies in the adhesive, misting, or a perceptible grain to it, then it's damaging the appearance and not protecting the investment. And bear in mind that lamination layers are soft and plastic, and any impressions left on it during wear and tear are far more obvious and obviously permanent.

All that said, I have seen really professional laminants applied to 80's collectables, and I did sell a UK Basic with a fairly professionally applied laminate to the cover with no decernable drop in value, and I even have to confess to laminating the cover of my first copy of UK Grimtooth's Traps back in the early 80's. I took the staples out and did a careful job on the cover before reassembling the book and letting it sit pressed under a stack of encyclopedias for a week. I was dead pleased with my efforts at the time.

Just my 2c.

So what wa the rare book?


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:58 pm 
 

The book is digest size with cardstock covers and the lamination covers the staples as well.
There are no noticeable bubbles or ripples in the lamination.
I have to admit that the lamination work itself is the best I have ever seen, but it still concerns me greatly.

I have no doubt that the sales price would have been MUCH Lower if the seller had simply stated "this books covers are laminated".
My bids for this item were made with the knowledge/belief (according to sellers description) that the inked initials were the ONLY flaws in an otherwise Near Mint book.

The main reason the sellers first statements are somewhat true (about the tightness of the cover) is DUE TO THE Lamination!

I am starting to get really peeved and downright sick of all the untrue, incomplete and/or crappy sellers descriptions.


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:09 pm 
 

Did the seller have the knowledge that what they were selling was not meant to be laminated, and have an idea that it would be a valuable book? Or was the seller not aware of what they were selling and being as open ans they would normallbe be selling a book?

Was the seller (likely to have been) deliberately lying by omission? Was the seller willfully ignorant? Or is it a genuine accident on the part of the seller?

It's a difficult one.

The other question to ask is, are you more agrieved at losing percieved investment value than you are in having paid more than you would have paid had you known?

I once paid maybe $200 over the odds for a PoVQ, shelling out for a ziplock 1st print what I should have paid for a black foldered 1st. I subsequently sold it on at a $200 loss, but I chalked it up to my own inexperience, and in the grand scheme of things Somethimes I've lost a chunk, and sometimes I've made a big profit. Maybe if I didn't take the chances and lost occasionally, I wouldn't have the nerve to take the chances and win when I win big time.


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:29 pm 
 

to me lamination means it is a reading copy only, i.e. poor condition. we are looking at all the same auctions John; i didn't bid on that because i thought it had been laminated...

  


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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:06 pm 
 

If it was this one then, yes, you can clearly see the lamination in the second picture, and the main picture seems to give off the dull sheen of lamination as well:

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Otherwise, a nice copy.

  

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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:43 pm 
 

My question...
Dear toohoneststeve,
You did not think that the completely laminated covers was worth mentioning in your description?
- aneoth

Sellers answer...
Dear aneoth,
I didn't think to mention it because all of the older books that I have from the '70's are like that.
If you did some research on these books from that era they were actually produced in the authors homes not in a factory.
There are many discrepencies in these books that you would not find in factory runs.
In some of these old D & D books the image is actually in the laminate not on the cover.
- toohoneststeve


While this response is entertaining, it really disturbs me on many levels.
Apparently, I have been collecting forgeries of old books for many years now.
NONE of my supposedly rare collectable books from the 70's have any lamination at all.
Not even the 1st Edition Chainmail I once owned was laminated!
Neither is my 2nd Edition Chainmail,  or the 2nd Print copy of The Dwarven Glory I recently sold!
The books in my 2nd Print Wood grain Box Set, The Ringbearer, What Price Glory, DragonTree Press, The Spellcaster's Bible, Ardiun, all of my Judges Guild stuff from the 70's, all of my OD&D stuff including all my 1st print supplements!

CRAP... All this time I have been getting ripped off buying unlamented forgeries!!

So does anyone else here have another copy of "The Book of Sorcery" by Dan Bress and Ed Konstant (Little Soldier Games, 1977)?
If so, was it originally laminated?
Did this book come laminated and was it printed by Little Soldier Games in their home/garage?
Was Little Soldier Games a home/garage company in 1977, or ever?


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Fri May 13, 2011 12:10 am, edited 5 times in total.
  


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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:05 am 
 

no, it did not come laminated....

  

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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:07 am 
 

I have 8 of the Little Soldier digest books and 2 copies of the one in question.  None of them are laminted and honestly, I can't think of any similiar style books being laminated.  Little Soldier, Arduin, Fantasy Art Enterprises, Dragon Tree Press, Adventurers Guild, John Scott Clegg, Dave Casciano, IDD, Matt Whalley, etc.

I can't think of any similar digest sized books that were laminated.

Sounds like too-honest-steve should be not-too-honest-steve.

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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:21 am 
 

I'm sure these books were printed up at a print shop not off a dot matrix in the guys basement.  Little Soldier did produce around 20 books.  There were probably at least a few hundred of each book produced (and also different prints for some) so in total, I think its safe to say they produced at least 5000+ books.  Do you really think they spend their time (after getting everything back from the printers) trying to nicely lay on a laminate sheet?

They wouldn't want the extra cost or the time it takes - just common sense.

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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:26 am 
 

Yes, you and I know that, but how would I convince Too Honest Steve of that?


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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:30 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:Yes, you and I know that, but how would I convince Mr Honest of that?


Why bother?  Ask for a refund or keep it.  No need to try and educate every bad seller on the planet.  There isnt enough time and most of them dont care.

Too bad a lot of these companies didnt laminate their product.  Stuff would last much longer.  I have an S3 that is laminated and it looks fantastic.  :)


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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:37 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:Why bother?  Ask for a refund or keep it.  No need to try and educate every bad seller on the planet.  There isnt enough time and most of them dont care.


I agree.  So far it seems like all honest-steve has been interested in is excuses.  The description is typical of a seller who over evaluates and wants to ignore the flaws.

A small pet peeve:

"The only fault I see in this book is the owner wrote his initials in blue pen on the top right corner of the first page. There are no marks or writing in the book ."

There are no marks or writing other than ... the one I just mentioned but just ignore that.

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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 12:40 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:Too bad a lot of these companies didnt laminate their product.  Stuff would last much longer.  I have an S3 that is laminated and it looks fantastic.  :)


I think by laminate here he really means sticky contact paper.  I have had a couple books with this stuff on it - Necromican, Wizards Aide, some Dragon Tree Press digest books and in all cases the cream coloured covers turned a yellowish.

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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:55 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:
Why bother?  Ask for a refund or keep it.  No need to try and educate every bad seller on the planet.  There isnt enough time and most of them dont care.

Too bad a lot of these companies didnt laminate their product.  Stuff would last much longer.  I have an S3 that is laminated and it looks fantastic.  :)


I agree. From a collectibility standpoint clearly something like this is in "poor" condition, and should have been mentioned by the seller (though it is visible upon careful inspection of the pics).

But from a gaming standpoint lamination is a real feature. I've had a few TSR modules with nicely laminated covers, and it completely halts the inevitable splitting along the spine, and makes them basically cola-proof, too :). I can totally understand why someone BITD would laminate these books if they were actually to be used. Which is kinda what these were designed for, after all. I would likely laminate all of my reading/playing copies of RPG materials if it could be donely cheaply and professionally.


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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:43 am 
 

Just to be clear.
Laminating otherwise less durable items like old school digest books BITD for books you were planning to use the heck out of seems like a good idea.
Especially after seeing SO many digest sized books with displaced covers, and covers with horrid stains and other problems.

However, home done lamination (IMO) immediately takes MUCH of the collectable value off that item.
Especially for rare and expensive items.
And based on the above members who are owners of other copies of this book; for me there is no doubt that this was NOT laminated by Little Soldier Games.
And as a collector, I would NOT laminate ANY item that I think might one day become a collectable.
EVER!
And also as a collector I wanted a copy of this book in nice condition... without lamination!
I was willing to ignore (OK; not ignore...  forgive...) the name inside, as that is not a big issue for me.
For me, that is a minor thing; Though names on the outside covers is a problem for me...

MY concern is that I did NOT notice the small bit of laminate that is visible in the ONE picture seller offered.
The second picture... Not the first one.
I can accept the fact that I should have seen it and as such am willing to take a small part of blaim for that reason.
BUT the seller did not bother to mention it at all and based on his response to my worries he seems to think it is of no concern.

And I looked at that second picture due to the fact that it was the picture showing the OPPOSITE page with the inked name.
The lamination on the left side of that ONE picture is really a small bit only and it did not register for me at all at the time.
Yeah, I see it now... too late to help me in this situation.
As for the first picture showing the front cover, I had no idea it was laminated looking at that picture.
Perhaps I simply have not seen enough of the laminated digest books to clue in.
Maybe I am simply stupid.
Whatever... I think I paid too much for this item... and IMO much of the blaim for that goes to the seller.
If he had stated "Book is Laminated", I would have walked away and not bid...
PERIOD!

I made my bids using perceived values and my perceptions were based on the description as stated by the seller and the pictures as I saw them.
Yes, a longer more careful examination of that second picture would have helped there...
Like I said, I am willing to take partial blaim for not being careful enough.
Some of you stated you noticed the lamination right off... good eye.
I did not and I would suspect I am not the only one either.


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Sat May 14, 2011 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
  


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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:33 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:...
I did not and I would suspect I am not the only one either.
...


With bidding up to what actually won, I would have to wonder if the person you were bidding against noticed it either.

My 2 cents as a small time collector...lamination basically kills the collectibility of the item. The manufacturer (however large or small they are) did not laminate it. As a collector, I want it as close as I can get to how it came from them. Some collectors would take it just to fill a spot until a better one comes through (similar to getting"poor" condition copies), but not at the price you paid.

If it was me, I would ask for a refund and send it back as "item not as described" and ask the seller if he would mention the lamination next time he lists it.

  
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