Rob,

I realize I may have insulted you when I said I couldn't figure why your map didn't have hexes. I tried to make it clear that that may not have been your choice but rather the guys who hired you.

But I'm such a gamer, I'd have hexagons on my toilet paper if my wife would let me. And probably should have a gag on my mouth!

I'm sorry.

I did say the map was beautiful!

robertsconley wrote:When I stumbled across a xerox place that had a blueprint photocopier. I had them xerox six copies of the player's and gm map of CSIO. Then I took the Player's map and drew the new alleyways and building. This wasn't radically different than the original I focused more on the changes that six campaigns of players made to my CSIO (1981 to 1985).

I just found out something interesting at our local blueprint place, they can scan at the same time they are making giant 'xerox' copies (3'x100' or whatever you need long!) and the price is right, the 1st copy is $.50 a square foot and 2nd is $.14 per square foot!

And if you scanning, then that's same cost as either pass (not in addition but in the place of if you need 0-1 copies).

You can send them a pdf (or whatever) and they'll output it at the same cost so I'm going to try them for a giant reference poster for Command Decision. The quality looks sharp (unlike blueprints which also literally stink).

The only glitch is that it does B&W scanning... do you know of anyone that will do giant COLOR scans of, say 17x22" or 22x34" for mouse-sized budgets? I ask re something I think JG fanatics would really like... a pretty definite purpose which is not at present disclosable

Bill

Bill Owen wrote:.......I just found out something interesting at our local blueprint place, they can scan at the same time they are making giant 'xerox' copies (3'x100' or whatever you need long!) and the price is right, the 1st copy is $.50 a square foot and 2nd is $.14 per square foot!

And if you scanning, then that's same cost as either pass (not in addition but in the place of if you need 0-1 copies).

You can send them a pdf (or whatever) and they'll output it at the same cost so I'm going to try them for a giant reference poster for Command Decision. The quality looks sharp (unlike blueprints which also literally stink).

The only glitch is that it does B&W scanning... do you know of anyone that will do giant COLOR scans of, say 17x22" or 22x34" for mouse-sized budgets? I ask re something I think JG fanatics would really like... a pretty definite purpose which is not at present disclosable

Bill

I am PMing you at this time.
Best Regards, Aneoth

Aneoth wrote:
I am PMing you at this time.
Best Regards, Aneoth

If you could send some info my way as well that would help me as well.

robertsconley wrote:
If you could send some info my way as well that would help me as well.

Anoeth's basic point is that cost-effective color scanners tend to be roll fed and that is a problem with ancient, delicate maps (my situation!) so he anticipated the likely glitch.

Fine art scanners are obviously going to run a lot more money since they are less common and oriented to super high quaity unneeded by blueprint service companies (some of which may have a color capable roll fed scanner--I should check locally).

So here's another idea, am I absolutely nuts to think we could take a photo of the old map? It's already mounted in a frame anyway but I think we could remove the glass and thus glare.

My wife has a 12-MB digital camera that's pretty darned good. I use a rather dumpy 5-MB because my needs are either eBay or travel photos for brochures I make regularly.*

This is a project to benefit Bob Jr's new JG efforts and I haven't even mentioned it to him yet (since I spend much of my time on the bleeding edge!) so I'd rather not say what it's about here and just yet.


*Here's a rather obscure JG factoid:  did anyone know that we took the original CSIO Guide art from an old drawing of Rothenburg-ob-Tauber in Germany? It's a real place, old, with a wall around it and on the Romantic Road between Frankfurt & Munich roughly. The streetscene is a famous view of the buildings that is featured on lots of travel posters and brochures.

Here's a sample photo; the spot is called Ploenlein:
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/108409 ... 2854mJngOg

I just sent a group of 39 people there today and just got back from seeing them off at O'Hare. So R-o-T keeps coming in and out of my life.

Now another couple of CSIO/RoT factoids: Bob drew the the guy coming down the street which we rubber cemented on the old drawing... to give it some life and if you look up on the clock tower, there is no clock! Just a grey tone that is too "even" in shade rather than textured like stucco or a wooden shutter. At the last minute Bob & I thought that a clock would be anachronistic and so we covered it up!

If you were going to take a vacation with the missus, she'd probably like it too (lots of neat shops and quaint stuff) and you'd feel like you're in the city state! (Sort of. Not many Orcs or sword fights that I saw).

When I thought my brother wanted to buy the travel agency, I took one last grand tour of Europe with my wife & daughter in 1999 before our agent privileges were histoire. I definitely included R-o-T, Lucerne's Chateau Gutsch, Brugges, Amsterdam, Munich, Venice, Rome, Paris, Madurodam. All old stuff and tiny stuff; we weren't looking for modern monstrosities! He ended up not buying me out but selling instead so we have kept on truckin'...

Assembling unique tours is what I continue to do for a living (since leaving Judges Guild, so 30+ years now) so if a couple dozen of you want to spend several thousand dollars on castles and old cities in Europe, I have the contacts in Europe through American Express etc. to assemble a custom tour... Judges Guild Comes Home To The City State Tour!

Since we know Bob was the writer, did you ever get a name (NPC, place, etc) that Bob liked and included?  How much if any of the situations that happened in the games you played before starting the company made their way into the early stuff?

ShaneG.

Bill Owen wrote:So here's another idea, am I absolutely nuts to think we could take a photo of the old map? It's already mounted in a frame anyway but I think we could remove the glass and thus glare.

My wife has a 12-MB digital camera that's pretty darned good. I use a rather dumpy 5-MB because my needs are either eBay or travel photos for brochures I make regularly.*

Just to expound on your comment.

No, you are not nuts.

Do you have some sort of frame or stand to set the camera in/on for verticle shots?
If so, then there are ways to rig the shot so that the resulting picture will be an almost exact copy (To scale) of the original subject.

One of the many aspects of Land Surveying includes photogrammetry.
Bascially, this is ariel photography for making detailed maps of the terrain to a specific scale.
The same process can be used for photos of objects, including maps.
This is commonly done in the restoration process for ancient books, maps and other ancient documents.

killjoy32 wrote:hey bill

back in the day, who got to DM the most?

and what kind of Dm-ing style was used? this kind of thing always interests me...

thanks

Al

Hi Al,

I kind of touched on this in my response to Shane but here's a succint answer rather than my usual digressions:

Who: Bob (who probably beat all the rest of us 10 to 1 combined!*)

Style: ???

Now the digressions!!

It's kind of too bad that he was so good at it! I think that he really would have enjoyed PLAYING in a game 1 in 3 rather than 1 out of 30.

He was great on several levels, namely the creation, the telling, the graphic design of items passed out (which were often in color not just black and white, rarely in lowly pencil) and an intuition for balance and kindly eye for judicious second chances.

Oddly enough his excellence and wide ranging ability made it intimidating to BE a judge in any proximity to him! I probably only agreed because we feared he'd keel over otherwise from overwork and we OWED him a boundless debt for all that he'd done to date.

As regards judging styles... I am stumped on how to compare and contrast because I was so provincial as to never (that I can remember; don't take it personally if I sat in on YOUR game--MY first D&D judging was forgotten by ME ALSO) play in anyone else's game.

The phase when we were delegates may have been short because we did such a mediocre job or the group was breaking up anyway. I cannot remember playing in their games and remember nothing really of games I judged. Wierd huh? But I have (or just sold) the evidence that it DID happen for a while.

So maybe when I'm walking through Wal Mart, I will suddently remember something significant to say about "style".


*But then when it came to miniatures or hosting bizarre boardgame variations, I was usually the organizer, referee, terrain maker etc. I judged at least 70 Tractics games in the first 2 years of the '70's. And countless other non-FRP stuff.

Alas, my style at times was pretty sarcastic and pushy about trying to keep the game moving. I'm NOT proud of the preceeding & trampling implicit but the truth will set me free.

Melan wrote:I guess this is also a valid observation for game materials in general. A lot of the time, you look at them like museum pieces because they are so slick, well produced and professional that they are perfect without you. A bit of roughness keeps it more personal, more accessible, and since it needs your input, it also encourages and facilitates it.

A question: how many of the old dungeon levels survive? Lonely Mountain and Moria were mentioned as huge, many-level complexes; are these levels comparable to, say, an immense thing like Tegel, or more along the lines of Badabaskor's smaller areas?

Melan,

1. A guy in Scotland got what was left of what I had of Bob's campaign. I don't know if Bob kept anything. He was more into piling than filing. Plus he was humble and my motivation was keeping a memento.

I had 2-4 levels from the Tower of the Elephant which was a big dungeon adjacent to Lonely Mountain which I think had a separate dungeon though it may have been connected.

The dungeon levels I can remember were "moderate in size" i.e. mostly sparse rather than dense and letter-sized (1/4" graph paper). But they were often many levels deep (i.e. 10-16); I don't if that's above average.

The giant sized dungeons were unusual and Tegel Manor is the only one can remember right now.

I have my Wales campaign materials ready to go up on eBay 'soon' (3-18 days). And there were some crude dungeons therein. I sell all this stuff with a satisfaction guarantee because they are generally unorganized and perhaps disappointing in terms of expectations. You haf been varned!

2. I bolded your comment about game being "perfect without you" ...a startling comment to ponder.

The younger one is, it may be surprising that most of our materials were a step up from the ransom-note style of graphic quality that was the norm in wargaming. And certainly color was very unusual. So having 2 color products was another step up.

I think that my natural tendency (as evidenced by the 35 Travel Catalogs I produced from 1991-2006) was to strive for constantly upgrade print quality. But despite having color printing in house, I have avoided glossy stock and high-tone look even though our tour groups run from about $3000-5000/person. I believe that glossy would connote unaffordably and off-putingly high end to most of our prospects.

It goes back to Stevens Publishing's founder "KK" who showed up on my door because he was prospecting for customers. He produced mostly weekly newspapers and catalogs... on newsprint or what I think was called high quality newsprint. He told me he wanted to get his son involved int the business and printing D&D materials (his high school aged son's current gaming obsession) might help him see how he could involve himself in both business and gaming. It worked Tom is still in the business after KK died young.

Anyway, he told me something rather important... people are most interested in what you have to say than how it looks. Self-serving perhaps but can you gold-plate crap and have it be more enticing?*

The other thing it did was allow us to publish much more materials for no more money. This was important for massive projects like Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign. We thought of it as giving more value.

I'll admit that I was less impressed by later JG stuff that had kind of a Comic Book colors, self-cover approach but I was long out of it by then. And my opinions were only as valuable as anyone else's! But the real issue was whether the product inside had value.

*Of course, the outward appearance must at least not repel you. Ideally intrigue the prospective buyer. Games that suffered by their graphic treatment include War at Sea and Victory in the Pacific. We thought they were ugly and didn't play them until much later... then realizing that they were gems in the rough and a lot of fun.

One of the problems with shrinkwrapped goodness is that it can hide real badness inside.

Sometimes, the care taken with the cover...or the style and philosophy reflected by the cover art...is the only thing to judge a game product by before trying it.