Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat
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Post Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:58 pm 
 

Hmmm thanks!
** no Géraud, you do not collect photocopies, no no no!**


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:17 am 
 

faro wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
lokiwookie wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:I thought that it was photocopies.

Yes, but it's a genuine, authorized copy, as is perfectly acceptable for PotVQs and OD&D supplements. Only a very small number were stated to have been made but they'd need a good provenance (e.g. Tadashi) for further investigation/comparison/etc.


Genuine authorized copy? That sound like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp. We've probably been down this road before David, but to me the only PVQ with any value is the First print, with the Black Folder. Ultimately that is what one is buying (in my opinion). In mentioning OD&D supplements, I can only assume that you mean Inverness, Tamoachan Tsojconth etc. Well same thing. Who would buy the interior pages without the cardstock exterior? No one, that's where the value exists and the (relative) proof of authenticity.

I'm not suggesting that I was privy to the 10-secong meeting where Capt. Lou sashayed over to Bob Bledsaw, asked him if he could run off some copies of out of print modules and before Lou could even finish trying to sell him a 100-sided die, Bob waived him back to his booth with a "Sure, run off whatever you want Lou, I trust you." If as Badmike suggested, the number of photocopies was "limited", I think it was limited by the fact that Lou probably made three initial photocopies and wouldn't make more until he had actually sold one at his booth. Overhead and all.

Now Lou is a giant in the history of our hobby (especially for us collectors) and I'm not trying to make fun of him (just his Zocchihedrons). I'm also not trying to give a hard time to the person that spent $13 on the Inferno photocopy (they probably just want a cheap play copy). And I respect very much the diligence and attention that faro has brought to the examination of the items that we collect. I merely respectfully disagree that this product should be considered "collectable" in any way, or even a product worth cataloging. To me it's just an old photocopy, and a poor one at that.


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:31 am 
 

stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
faro wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:Yes, but it's a genuine, authorized copy, as is perfectly acceptable for PotVQs and OD&D supplements. Only a very small number were stated to have been made but they'd need a good provenance (e.g. Tadashi) for further investigation/comparison/etc.


Genuine authorized copy? That sound like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp. We've probably been down this road before David, but to me the only PVQ with any value is the First print, with the Black Folder. Ultimately that is what one is buying (in my opinion). In mentioning OD&D supplements, I can only assume that you mean Inverness, Tamoachan Tsojconth etc. Well same thing. Who would buy the interior pages without the cardstock exterior? No one, that's where the value exists and the (relative) proof of authenticity.

I'm not suggesting that I was privy to the 10-secong meeting where Capt. Lou sashayed over to Bob Bledsaw, asked him if he could run off some copies of out of print modules and before Lou could even finish trying to sell him a 100-sided die, Bob waived him back to his booth with a "Sure, run off whatever you want Lou, I trust you." If as Badmike suggested, the number of photocopies was "limited", I think it was limited by the fact that Lou probably made three initial photocopies and wouldn't make more until he had actually sold one at his booth. Overhead and all.

Now Lou is a giant in the history of our hobby (especially for us collectors) and I'm not trying to make fun of him (just his Zocchihedrons). I'm also not trying to give a hard time to the person that spent $13 on the Inferno photocopy (they probably just want a cheap play copy). And I respect very much the diligence and attention that faro has brought to the examination of the items that we collect. I merely respectfully disagree that this product should be considered "collectable" in any way, or even a product worth cataloging. To me it's just an old photocopy, and a poor one at that.


Bill your humor is under-rated, I laughed all through this!  I owned a few of these in the early 90s, and as if the fact they are just photocopies isn't bad enough, they are REALLY BAD PHOTOCOPIES.  Kind of like someone took a bunch of legal sheets, used a mimeograph machine from 1979 to make two sided side by side copies, and after he was done folded the entire mess into an unruly pile without bothering to line up the edges and used an industrial grade stapler to slam a few staples in to hold it together.  They are really a mess. In the early 90s I worked at a Savings and Loan and had access to a machine and materials that made my own photocopies (for private use, of course) look like Leonardo Da Vinci sketches in comparison.  I will say you used to run into these a lot in the "old days", haven't seen much of them in the last decade or so as I think most people probably threw them out at a certain point (I'm pretty sure that's where mine went).

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:54 pm 
 

Badmike wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat: they are REALLY BAD PHOTOCOPIES.


This can be deliberate in the research & information business. By producing a rough-looking copy, researchers are in effect assuring the copyright holder that copies are made for legitimate purposes will not replace the original, & so should be regarded as fair use. Zocci may have had that in mind, as a way to avoid offending collectors.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:18 am 
 

stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
faro wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:Yes, but it's a genuine, authorized copy, as is perfectly acceptable for PotVQs and OD&D supplements. Only a very small number were stated to have been made but they'd need a good provenance (e.g. Tadashi) for further investigation/comparison/etc.


Genuine authorized copy? That sound like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp.

It's an authorised copy and a genuine copy thereof, hence a genuine, authorised copy. Not a jumbo shrimp. You'll have to forgive my missing comma and British spelling. :)
Whatever the precise backstory is behind those JG reprints, no-one has yet confirmed or denied the existence of a "reprinted by Gamescience with permission of Judges Guild" line added to the text that Louis thought might have been inserted.

stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:We've probably been down this road before David, but to me the only PVQ with any value is the First print, with the Black Folder. Ultimately that is what one is buying (in my opinion).

(OT) My money was on the black folder, too, but one of the individuals most vociferous about that not being the first print went by the name of Pete Kerestan. At various times he proposed the yellow loose leaf copy as having priority, or (created at a crazy-early date) a white leaf copy. The arguments and counter-arguments were discussed and if an "unexplainable" copy ever turns up, the threads are still there.
None of this will stop people paying $500+ for genuinely rare, authorised PotVQ photocopies, anyhow...

What is it with people getting sniffy about the actual method used to create copies, rather than the actual item/content? Next we'll be saying that RPG fanzines aren't worth keeping/collecting simply because the majority of them were produced using photocopying. :)

stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:In mentioning OD&D supplements, I can only assume that you mean Inverness, Tamoachan Tsojconth etc. Well same thing. Who would buy the interior pages without the cardstock exterior? No one, that's where the value exists and the (relative) proof of authenticity.

I did actually mean supplements. And, in that case, the "whites" prove the printing sequence for the presence/absence of the prices, too. And it doesn't matter if they're photocopied; the ones that turn up with good provenance are still genuine, authorised copies, originally sold by the copyright owner, OK? ;)

Cheers,
d.


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:11 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
Badmike wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat: they are REALLY BAD PHOTOCOPIES.


This can be deliberate in the research & information business. By producing a rough-looking copy, researchers are in effect assuring the copyright holder that copies are made for legitimate purposes will not replace the original, & so should be regarded as fair use. Zocci may have had that in mind, as a way to avoid offending collectors.


This could be an explanation.  Also, I seem to remember copies having the "Reprinted by Gamescience" line, and a few I came across had this stamped across the cover (actually surprised the Inferno on Ebay didnt have this stamped on the front).

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:38 pm 
 

Badmike wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:This could be an explanation.  Also, I seem to remember copies having the "Reprinted by Gamescience" line, and a few I came across had this stamped across the cover (actually surprised the Inferno on Ebay didnt have this stamped on the front).

Mike B.


I stopped by his booth over at Origins and he still had one or two of the photocopies for sale. I believe it did have the "Reprinted by Gamescience" line. Still extremely rough photocopy though, but should be OK for a playing copy.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:23 am 
 

faro wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
Genuine authorized copy? That sound like military intelligence or jumbo shrimp.

It's an authorised copy and a genuine copy thereof, hence a genuine, authorised copy. Not a jumbo shrimp. You'll have to forgive my missing comma and British spelling. :)
Whatever the precise backstory is behind those JG reprints, no-one has yet confirmed or denied the existence of a "reprinted by Gamescience with permission of Judges Guild" line added to the text that Louis thought might have been inserted.

stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:We've probably been down this road before David, but to me the only PVQ with any value is the First print, with the Black Folder. Ultimately that is what one is buying (in my opinion).

(OT) My money was on the black folder, too, but one of the individuals most vociferous about that not being the first print went by the name of Pete Kerestan. At various times he proposed the yellow loose leaf copy as having priority, or (created at a crazy-early date) a white leaf copy. The arguments and counter-arguments were discussed and if an "unexplainable" copy ever turns up, the threads are still there.
None of this will stop people paying $500+ for genuinely rare, authorised PotVQ photocopies, anyhow...

What is it with people getting sniffy about the actual method used to create copies, rather than the actual item/content? Next we'll be saying that RPG fanzines aren't worth keeping/collecting simply because the majority of them were produced using photocopying. :)

stratochamp wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:In mentioning OD&D supplements, I can only assume that you mean Inverness, Tamoachan Tsojconth etc. Well same thing. Who would buy the interior pages without the cardstock exterior? No one, that's where the value exists and the (relative) proof of authenticity.

I did actually mean supplements. And, in that case, the "whites" prove the printing sequence for the presence/absence of the prices, too. And it doesn't matter if they're photocopied; the ones that turn up with good provenance are still genuine, authorised copies, originally sold by the copyright owner, OK? ;)

Cheers,
d.

Dear David,

You responded to my (largely) tongue-in-cheek post with a serious rebuttal. I respect your decision while (again) disagreeing with the contents of your post. I will treat your post seriously with my forthcoming reply, where I hope to elucidate what I collect and why. We'll see at the end were I end up, because I intend to use this as an opportunity to explore a broader theme, rather than take easy shots at you from across the pond. And if you're wondering why I sent this silly preamble post, well, now I have to actually follow through and type up the bloody thing...


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:22 pm 
 

GreyM wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:
Badmike wrote in Another one that got away  ... or an opportunity to gloat:This could be an explanation.  Also, I seem to remember copies having the "Reprinted by Gamescience" line, and a few I came across had this stamped across the cover (actually surprised the Inferno on Ebay didnt have this stamped on the front).

Mike B.


I stopped by his booth over at Origins and he still had one or two of the photocopies for sale. I believe it did have the "Reprinted by Gamescience" line. Still extremely rough photocopy though, but should be OK for a playing copy.


I bet he was asking $65.00 for it...

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:18 am 
 

We (ThunderDave and I) stopped by the Gamescience booth at Gencon.  He had photocopies of a few of the JG products and was asking $15-$20 each.

Noble Knight also carries the the Gamescience reprints:  Noble Knight Games Role Playing Games - Judges Guild Reprints (Lou Zocchi)

He was also selling genuine reprint, authorized photocopies of Ringbearer for $20.

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:39 pm 
 

Mr Zocchi was so upset that I asked if the Ringbearer copies were freebies/promos, that he shooed us away after collecting $10 from me for Bifrost volume 1... good times :)


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:48 pm 
 

We did get a nice rant about Dave Casciano (Infernax, Book of Dragons, Thieves Quarter, etc) too which was also a great GenCon moment.

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