Populva - City in Karak?
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:12 pm 
 

Prior to 1980 the Wilderlands map (that shows all the separate sections together) shows the city of Populva on the southern coast of Karak, presumably.

http://www.acaeum.com/jg/WilderlandsMapTimeline.html

I have never seen this referred to any JG publications, nor have I heard it discussed by any of the old timers who have insight from Bob Bledsaw.  Does anyone have any clue about this city?

  

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Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:39 pm 
 

http://p208.ezboard.com/Diplomatic-Rela ... =117.topic

James over on Necromancer Games said this:
'IIRC, Bob mentioned that Populvah is the former, ancient capital of Karak, and that the current capital is far to the east. Like Greenwax (and Pavis of Glorantha, the ultimate Ruined City with a City), there is a new, modern city next to the old Imperial ruins..."

Hestrin stated this earlier in that thread:
"The "City-State Installment" named "Revelshire" from Pegasus Magazine #2 by Scott Fulton is the only published scenario set on Map 13 that I have been able to find. Revelshire ( Map 13 Hex #4512) is a village or small town located on the Starlight River. There is no reference to Karak in it. It does say that the Starlight River is a major east - west trade route. Any trade coming from the east there would almost have to come from Populva, which is a city shown on some old maps that depict the whole wilderlands. It is shown as being around 35-40 miles east of Land Haven (Map 13 Hex #5220). According to Bob Bledsaw, Popolva is the capital of Karak."

But nothing has been written/published on this city that I know of.

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:13 am 
 

Populva was, centuries ago, the home city and capital of the current dynasty that rules Karak. However, being literally at the ass-end of the Empire caused all sorts of troubles for the Emperors, and so following a dynastic dispute that leveled the city, the winning faction moved to Koin, the ancient capital of Karak, and rule from there today.

A new city has grown up upon and next to the ruins of the old city, and is the center for most trade (land- or water-based) between the Wilderlands and Karak.


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Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:56 am 
 

So this ever going to make it into print :)

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:46 am 
 

jamesmishler wrote:Populva


I don't quite know how to take this name.  

Is it derived from the Mayan Popol Vuh?

Is it an anagram of some sort for a female body part?

The name does not have a Far Eastern ring to it.  Populva sounds more like a place in Eastern Europe...slavic.

It sounds like the kind of name someone comes up with when they are populating the corners of a fantasy map and have run out of snappy joke names like "Winedark Sea."


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:06 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:
I don't quite know how to take this name.  

Is it derived from the Mayan Popol Vuh?


Well, on Bob's histories that issue is never addressed. In the Wilderlands of High Adventure, it is indeed descended from Mayan, or a Mayan-like language. In the 13th Century BCCC, the Tlanitlans (or so they are known today) migrated out of the Demon Empires. Legends say that they were summoned by the Demon Kings to serve as slaves, and rebelled. They followed Quetzelcoatl (known also to history as Kukulan of the Storm), and spread out across the Wilderlands. In most areas they were assimilated by other human races, but in some regions they retained cultural primacy, such as in Tlan. Linguistic and cultural remnants of the great migration are found scattered across the Wilderlands, from ancient steppe pyramids and strange altars to the names of villages, families, and rivers. The Tlanitlans, like the Amazons, served as mercenaries during the civil wars of the Dragon Empire; the Tlanitlan influence on the Altanian Highlanders is still strong...


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:31 am 
 

jamesmishler wrote:
Well, on Bob's histories that issue is never addressed. In the Wilderlands of High Adventure, it is indeed descended from Mayan, or a Mayan-like language. In the 13th Century BCCC, the Tlanitlans (or so they are known today) migrated out of the Demon Empires. Legends say that they were summoned by the Demon Kings to serve as slaves, and rebelled. They followed Quetzelcoatl (known also to history as Kukulan of the Storm), and spread out across the Wilderlands. In most areas they were assimilated by other human races, but in some regions they retained cultural primacy, such as in Tlan. Linguistic and cultural remnants of the great migration are found scattered across the Wilderlands, from ancient steppe pyramids and strange altars to the names of villages, families, and rivers. The Tlanitlans, like the Amazons, served as mercenaries during the civil wars of the Dragon Empire; the Tlanitlan influence on the Altanian Highlanders is still strong...


If the local language is Mayan then the name makes etymological sense...and I like it a lot better.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:21 pm 
 

One of the things about the original Wilderlands of High Fantasy is that it took names from cultures and spread them out willy-nilly, without rhyme or reason... generally. Some areas had a concentration of specific name types, but this was rare. In the original books, none of it mattered, as it was up to the JUDGE to develop cultures and local histories (if such were even desired).

A lot of the history that developed for the Wilderlands of High Adventure came out of the spread of names and races, as I tried to make some sense out of the the strange mix. That is reflected in the WoHA products... when they finally get published...  :roll:


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:42 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:One of the things about the original Wilderlands of High Fantasy is that it took names from cultures and spread them out willy-nilly, without rhyme or reason... generally. Some areas had a concentration of specific name types, but this was rare. In the original books, none of it mattered, as it was up to the JUDGE to develop cultures and local histories (if such were even desired).

A lot of the history that developed for the Wilderlands of High Adventure came out of the spread of names and races, as I tried to make some sense out of the the strange mix. That is reflected in the WoHA products... when they finally get published...  :roll:


That was part of the joy of early D&D.  We mixed Romans and pirates and Mongols and hobbits and platemail and aliens and Romulans and Amazons and the Cat in the Hat and it was all OK.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:31 pm 
 

Great information guys.  Thanks for the response.  I vaguely remember Hestrin's post that Plaag quoted.  It's good to see James expanding on this.  I appreciate his efforts to bring order to the somewhat haphazard nature of the original material.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:38 pm 
 

Do these people perform human sacrifices and /or have a strong affinity for filiopietistic ritual? I hope so. I miss the "dark peoples of the world."


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:07 pm 
 

filiopietistic: of or pertaining to reverence of forebears or tradition, esp. if carried to excess.

For those of you who may be as vocabulary challenged as Serleran made me feel.   :oops:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:43 am 
 

serleran wrote:Do these people perform human sacrifices and /or have a strong affinity for filiopietistic ritual? I hope so. I miss the "dark peoples of the world."


Er, what do you mean by "dark peoples of the world"?

As for human sacrifices, they are a daily (LEGAL) occurance in the City State of the Invincible Overlord and just about everywhere else considered "civilized" (Viridistan, Tarantis, etc.) In the City State the Temple of Harmakhis makes daily human sacrifices (when available), and the Hell-Bridge Temple usually once a week; the temples of Odin and Thoth only perform human sacrifices very rarely, and only ever willing members of the faith.

It is perfectly legal to sacrifice slaves, and legal to sacrifice volunteer freemen and citizens; it is very illegal to sacrifice unwilling freemen and citizens, and the public and open sacrifices are certified by the Constabulary in conjunction with an apprentice of the Red Wizard (in the CSIO), both of which are, unfortunately, readily bribable, though not stupid enough to allow the unwilling sacrifice of someone with powerful family or friends.

Of course, with hidden sacrifices anything goes...

As for the Tlanitlan, it depends on which surviving group. In Populva, other than the Tlanitlan name and some clans with Tlanitlan names and traditions, only the worship of Huitzilopochtli (known as the Red God of War in the Wilderlands in general) is general in nature. His temple (built on a steppe pyramid) sacrifices captives taken in war before and after battle; individual members sacrifice captives to garner favors from the god. The Red God of War is not worshipped in the rest of Karak, save by members of various mercenary condottas that originated out of Populva centuries ago (of which there are a fair number, renowned for their eagle feather plumed helms).

In Tlan itself, all the Old Gods of the Tlanitlan were revered, and human sacrifice was very common; it was what led to a crusade by an association of cities and towns along the coast to conquer and crush the Tlanitlan Empire (well, what remained of it at the time), as the Tlanitlans had engaged in numerous wars to get enough sacrifices to support the habit!


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:35 am 
 

Sounds very "Apocolypto".  :twisted:

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:55 am 
 

leadjunkie wrote:Sounds very "Apocolypto".  :twisted:


  Which is, of course, exactly what it is...a mix of Central American traditions stirred in with chunks of real language and history that is common in RPG settings.

   That is one of the cool things about role-playing....the sort of non-linnear way that the hobby teaches literature, language, history and culture.  (Did I spell "non-linnear" right?  :scratch: )  It sometimes means that role-players have odd notions about the way history fits together...but so do most people.  Most often, it means that gamers in general have a sense of the "reality" of past events...a frame of reference...because, in a sense, they were "there."

   There is no way to explain this idea of "being there" to a non-gamer.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:39 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:(Did I spell "non-linnear" right?  :scratch: )


One 'n'.  Otherwise correct. :)


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:58 pm 
 

In my wilderlands, the Majestic Wilderlands, I have a culture that has human sacrifice as one of the central rituals. It is located in Orchia and Isle of the Blest. Rallu is one of their main cities.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/hamakhis.html

I tried to make a plausible culture that revolved around human sacrifice. While these guys aren't Aztecs, I drew inspiration from the book Aztec by Jennings which is a great read on life from an ordinary Aztec's point of view.

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:43 pm 
 

robertsconley wrote:In my wilderlands, the Majestic Wilderlands, I have a culture that has human sacrifice as one of the central rituals. It is located in Orchia and Isle of the Blest. Rallu is one of their main cities.

http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/hamakhis.html

I tried to make a plausible culture that revolved around human sacrifice. While these guys aren't Aztecs, I drew inspiration from the book Aztec by Jennings which is a great read on life from an ordinary Aztec's point of view.

Rob Conley


Aztec, by Jennings, is one of the few novels I have ever chosen to literally toss in the trash.

That is not to say, however, that his depiction of Aztec life is not valid.  A game master could do worse than use Aztec as a guide for a sick culture....and the Aztec culture was sick at its core when Cortez showed up.

One interesting take on Central and South American civilzations can be found in Fred Saberhagen's book, Golden Mask of the Sun (or something like that...perhaps just The Golden Mask?)  Although the plot does not deal directly with an advanced Aztec or Inca culture, the concept is at the center of the book's plot.

The question of what Central American civilization would have grown into had it not been interrupted by Europeans....that is interesting.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:06 pm 
 

Since the overall culture depicted in fantasy gaming is primarily European, the Wilderlands ends up being a kind of fantasy America, a mix of European & Native American cultures. A few other guesses regarding fantasy worlds:

Middle Earth = Europe + Central Asia. In the context of Europe, the elves are the earlier peoples & the men are Indo-Europeans. In the context of Central Asia, the elves who went west are the Indo-Europeans, a language family once prominent there but which has now dwindled.

Narnia = the Caucasus, on the sea explored by Prince Caspian. Georgia & Armenia are Archenland & Narnia [where Aslan is a common name]; Calormen is Azerbaijan.

Genertela of Glorantha = the Greek Peloponese [Peloria], 1600 years after the dawn of recorded history [Late Bronze Age]; + the Hellenic Empire at its farthest eastern extent near the real-life city of Furthest [Alexandria/Cyr Eschate] & the Khyber Pass [Dragon Pass]. A red lunar eclipse occurred on the eve of Alexander's defeat of the Persian Emperor.

World of Greyhawk = Asia with the edges of Europe & Africa, although it's probably not a close correspondence other than the coastlines.

  
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