Plaag wrote:places it with #12 CSIO maps...IMHO then (all evidence weighed) it makes Hammermill Bond maps around the time of #12 CSIO Playing Aid (with large scale), and accompaning that is #4 City State players map with small scale (December of 76)
Plaag wrote:Thick paper maps precede these by needing them in GenCon (August 76), then later for initial subscriptions laid out in Journal I (October 76)..
Plaag wrote:IMHO then (all evidence weighed) it makes Hammermill Bond maps around the time of #12 CSIO Playing Aid (with large scale), and accompaning that is #4 City State players map
Plaag wrote:Now I follow where you are coming from, but if that is the case: that it is a carry over, then the '1st' would become 2nd and the '2nd' would become 3rd (for that map mind you)
Plaag wrote:K..before heading off to sleep..Got maps (I should scan all of mine to keep univerasal color) Though just from glance looks like campaign map 1 has two printings (esp if you say color is like the one you sent)
Plaag wrote:Why J has numbers and K does not I'm thinking maybe due to no K maps (like I and J have) With that being the case it's possible numbered journal I came with initial package (hell I have my history written that way, but I am also trying to get some research on that end). Thunderhold you'll see especially on the 'thank you' sheet you sent me does not include a J or K journal - and actually they only appear in the list bundled with item #21 listed in Journal L. Did J and K ever come with an installment..neither Campaign Installment nor Thunderhold specify having a journal/newsletter?]
Plaag wrote:Don't have the time to respond to much of the above other then it wasn't Mike (improve) auction as I have that pic and don't see any yellow on the maps.
Plaag wrote:second found this in Dragon Magazine 8 (July 1977)http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=nc1u77 Had to make it a gif file (dues to wanting to keep size and image really is not affected), but image still shows the '2nd' print maps of item #1 as there, (notice the dark splotches in the forests and also large map scale) IMHO they can not be 1st prints
Plaag wrote:Also Dragon 6 (April 1977) mentions #14 Ready Ref Package as now available - so there is a better date for that.
Plaag wrote:So the mailing card possibly came with the CSIO (though not sure what the other white piece of paper is at the top of the photo) and wondering if that players map is one sheet - 17"x22"
invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?I dug out our JG stuff, and I made a mistake in my above post. The white Initial Guidelines Booklet I, and the four maps that make the CSotIO that I stated came from an envelope pre-dating October 76 was incorrect. That envelope is actually plain and void of any post-marks. The few P.O. marked envelopes we do have are marked from October 76 and various months into 77. After examining the maps again from the plain envelope, I noticed they are also absent of the copyright of 1976 found on our other two sets of these maps. Right away I also noticed they are also of a higher quality, both in printing and especially the quality of paper. The four maps that make up the City-State are still like brand new. They're made of a heavy-stock Manila paper with nice dark-brown ink that's well printed. It's just nice and even, not blotchy, even the half tones are done right. The other two map sets are on a cheaper flimsy tan paper. The ink looks the same, but it just doesn't stand out as nice on the cheaper paper. The extra text states: City State of the Invincible Overlord Copyright 1976 by Judges Guild.Interesting indeed. And what's funny is in that same envelope I found a copy of The Official Dungeon of GenCon IX (1976). Not the latter reprinted JG ones, and not the Bob Blake red-covered one either. It's what I believe to be the actual tournament module for Round 1. And now with the discovery that the Guideline Booklet and the Maps could have come from that same GenCon in 76 it kind of make sense to me now remembering a few other items I picked up from a seller that tie into the Con that year. I'd but a buck on it for sure. So three of what most would consider cool but So-So items in a collection (clean city-state maps, an odd colored Guideline book I, and incomplete Bob Blake pre-pub) may have just become a few GenCon relics. Nice! More research is needed.
Plaag wrote:From Page 1 of Judges Guild Questions I found this (rather rediscovered)invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?
invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?
Plaag wrote:(((Have to run, but hopefully my thought is there..and can always be picked apart as I wrote this fast..and I know debate is coming )
faro wrote:Plaag wrote:From Page 1 of Judges Guild Questions I found this (rather rediscovered)invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?Shane, I get the feeling I'm going round in circles here and I've referred to IO's previous post which you clipped several times before.Mike wrote that the October 76 postmarked mailers had brown "I"s. Why are you back to November/December yet again, if that's the case?
jamesmishler wrote:Just got off the phone with Bob. Here's the skinny on the white versus brown covers...The White Cover is the True First "I."What happened is this...When Bob and Bill Owen took the maps to Gen Con 1975, they had *only* the maps. The maps were rolled; there was at that time no "I" to sell.The maps sold gangbusters. When Bill got there on Friday he started selling them out of the back of his truck, as they did not have a table. Then Bob got there on Saturday, got a table, and they started selling even more. People were wondering about the details of the places on the map.The map was, of course, Bob's city from his campaign. Because so many people were asking about the details, Bob figured they could make more money by selling the details as well, so he came up with the idea of the subscription service. He started selling subs to the City State at the sho on Saturday.Then, after the show, he went home and started writing it...Bob did most of the writing, while Bill handled the printing. The first printing was the White True First, and it was when they got it back that they realized two things:1) They had forgotten to put the copyright notice on the booklet. Bob didn't want to send them out, but he realized that he needed to get that first sub set out, so they were shipped anyway, and they continued to ship the True First White Cover until they got the Brown Cover with copyright notice later in 1976 (Bob could not recall at the time the exact month of that).2) Between Bob completing his layout of the set and Bill getting it printed, Bill added "Initial Guidelines Booklet I" to the top of the booklet, "I" for "Initial Issue," as he felt that it would help spur sales. Bob thought it was a silly idea, but had to go with it from then on, and that's why they went on later with "J'," "K," and so forth!A couple of other tidbits gleaned from the discussion: (Ammended taking out only the Group One tidbit)2) The smaller sized City State maps (the whole City State on one page) were initially a printer accident! The printer printed the CSIO on one page at a smaller scale due to miscommunications. Bob bought the smalelr prints at a discount and ended up selling and using them anyway.3) Judges Guild was incorporated on or around July 4, 1976 (Ammended as later is know to be 1977). About that time Bob bought out Bill, who was not active in the day-to-day operations of the company.4) Bob said they sold about 40 to 50 subs at that first Gen Con, and continued to sell subs like gangbusters through mail order thereafter.I meant to ask about how the other "I" sheets all fit in with everything, but we went on to other things... I'll try to remember to ask next time we speak.
jamesmishler wrote:Another thing I've noticed is that by "M" at least (Jun/Jul 1977), the Dungeon Tac Cards are included with the "Initial Package" deal, though I do not know whether they were included with the first sub installment sent out in October 1976...
faro wrote:re. #4. The second print (e.g. http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... 2-2nd.html ) is lacking the redrawn coast, as noted before.The redrawn coast, however, is clearly shown in the advert in Dragon #4 (you emailed me the relevant section of map from the 1st print, rather than posting here).Since Dragon #4 copy would have had to have been ready by mid-November at the absolute latest and the 1st print JG#4 predates the 2nd print JG#4 which predates the 2nd print JG #1 (with wholesale coastline change) which was before mid-Nov, how d'you get the 1st print JG#4 to date to Nov/Dec?(And 2nd print JG#1 is still listed as "released with CSIO #12" on the site, too, which clearly cannot be as noted from the Dragon #4 evidence, Mike's mailers, etc...).The swap over in name from "Dungeons and Dragons" to (generic) "Fantasy" also should have happened early on (Sep?) before things were smoothed out.You have the Tac Cards as Sep, yet the first installment at mid-late Nov (2 months later), yet journal "I" ("Oct 76") clearly states "You have purchased a subscription entitling you the starter package, five bimonthly supplements and our newsletter" (whole package) and the Tac Cards as "hot off the press".Do you have strong evidence to run contrary to the above?(aside: Nov 10th date comes from where? Doesn't immediately ring any bells, that one...)Plaag wrote:(((Have to run, but hopefully my thought is there..and can always be picked apart as I wrote this fast..and I know debate is coming )Yeah, apologies if I'm sounding frustrated, but I thought we'd "fixed" most of the above, even if that's not yet reflected in the listings.Not claiming it's perfect but fits better, placing emphasis more towards the stronger evidence that we have.Thanks.
