Early JG items discussion
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:47 pm 
 

K..before heading off to sleep..
Got maps (I should scan all of mine to keep univerasal color) Though just from glance looks like campaign map 1 has two printings (esp if you say color is like the one you sent)
Second..not sure if its just me reading this in a daze, but I'm lost..What maps/sheets/etc did you get with what lots (My Tac Card seller/your I mailer/etc stuff like that first and foremost)
PM/email is fine..just so much scattered and whew brain drain trying to sort it all.
feck it, I'm going to bed.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:47 pm 
 

Ah...
viewtopic.php?p=44114&highlight=#44114
"1st print: has yellow highlight on swamp areas, 'for use with Dungeons & Dragons', no copyright date"

OK... not 100% significant in its own right, but when that tallies with white paper dotted I-2 to I-5 being apparently earlier and the white "I" booklet, definitely much more so. Thanks.

Stepping back...
JG #4 (I-12 quad)
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... apI12.html
The differences I have are the different positioning of the I-12 label, Fantasy Role-Playing instead of D&D, PO Box addy and scale shown.
The "Gold Bosum Pool" has the same two dark splotches to the North-West and a "weak" line to the south of the outlet in both the stated "1st" and the copy I have here.

However...
JG #1 (I-12 sheet)
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html is a perfect match for
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html, aside from the yellow overprint (it even has the break in the line above the last "T" in City State.
As before, the differences I have are the Fantasy Role-Playing instead of D&D, PO Box addy and scale shown. The I-12 label is not present.
(And here's the clincher, I think)
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html and
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html
have no particularly evident dark splotches to the North-West of "Gold Bosum Pool" and a "weak" line to the south of the outlet.
But http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html
has two dense dark splotches to the North-West of "Gold Bosum Pool" and a "reinforced" dark line to the south of the outlet.

Apparent conclusion;
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html isn't actually a third print, it's a genuine "first print" without the yellow overprint.
Does the paper match, Shane?

What's more, I just opened my Collector's Edition map pack (blue cover sheet, reverse stating highest number 59 postage wef 1/1/78) and all I have are lousy 2nd prints; http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html :)
[ed.]actually the CE I-12 is possibly slightly different paper stock, but the difference is small even though it might be evidence of re-printing. The CE maps are folded blank-side out whereas the installment copies are all printed-side out.

By some fluke, your(?) pack must have had a residual copy of http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html without the yellow overprint.
Could you please confirm that this was a massive wild goose chase ;)

=
On the down-side, if that's the case it clearly indicates the JG still had old stock "available" long after the original release; which could easily apply to other items, too.
And down-side(2), there's nothing to indicate whether those maps were first released without the yellow overprint; (both) prior to the "orange I" release, although some may have slipped in as overstock. The copyright 1976 text on the PO Box maps clearly matches the orange "I" booklet.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:01 am 
 

Okay..
CE map I-12 is not Hammermill Bond (no watermark) and yes is like '1st' in paper.
Now I follow where you are coming from, but if that is the case: that it is a carry over, then the '1st' would become 2nd and the '2nd' would become 3rd (for that map mind you)
Now something I noticed on all the '1st' maps is that the castle walls/bridge, really any fine detail is blotched in the other Hammermill Bond paper maps (like it got double printed over itself).
Now I-12: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... apI12.html
What I have up, and what you posted to me..has the break above the T in city state
The mailingcard you sent me, has the Bootylist that matches Journal J and Guide to the City State..and at the top of its front has the large and small move scales (places it with #12 CSIO maps, mine has the large scale on it, of which you have the accompaning player map I-12 with the small scale)

IMHO then (all evidence weighed) it makes Hammermill Bond maps around the time of #12 CSIO Playing Aid (with large scale), and accompaning that is #4 City State players map with small scale (December of 76)
Thick paper maps precede these by needing them in GenCon (August 76), then later for initial subscriptions laid out in Journal I (October 76)..however the player map was not created by GenCon..so the yellow swamp City State maps and accompaning yellow swamp Players City State maps would logically go together and thus be the initial subscription release.
So..buy up those CE maps..the one I bought from Fencert had the non colored swamp heavy paper section...

One step at a time, but perhaps the white paper of the I dungeon maps '1st' and the white paper of Players Map #4 '1st' would also likely go together (thus placing it in the initial subscription or at least the first release of it)..though Booklet I lies in there (depending on which version may or may not have a (c) ), and well both Tac Cards and any of the I-6 to I-8 maps only have a (c) to TSR..think the Initial Subscription became a mismatch over time? Since not having that many subscriptions 40-50 plus mail orders after that..but unknown how many total when the 'IS' was mailed..the '1st' batch would be more 'together', course also not as likely to have variations and no other real employees to mix things up.

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:18 am 
 

I'm on a different timescale to you, Shane, but the sequence is getting there through primary evidence rather than guesswork.

Plaag wrote:places it with #12 CSIO maps
...
IMHO then (all evidence weighed) it makes Hammermill Bond maps around the time of #12 CSIO Playing Aid (with large scale), and accompaning that is #4 City State players map with small scale (December of 76)

Still not sure why you're insisting those "2nd" maps weren't printed until CSIO #12 when I have both a "J" + auto backfill sub and a likely "I"-onwards sub that has those maps (neither owner had a CSIO #12) and the relabelling of "Dungeons and Dragons" text appears to date back to a debate with TSR somewhere back around September(?), rather than December.
It would also have made sense to get the PO Box addy on the maps when that was done, but that can only suggest an earliest rather than a latest date.

The mailing card clearly states (at a "later date" and cannot confirm which installment that was sent with) that the initial package and "J" were repackaged into CSIO #12 whereas your timeline appears to state that #4 was immediately placed in #12 (stated Dec 76?). That doesn't work for me.

Plaag wrote:Thick paper maps precede these by needing them in GenCon (August 76), then later for initial subscriptions laid out in Journal I (October 76)..

At present there's no definitive evidence either way whether the revised ("2nd") maps were available for the very first orange "I" installment release (October 76).
However, Mike/IO clearly notes that all his other mailers (back to Oct 76, other than the white "I" mailer) contained "2nd" print maps, although it's not clear whether they'd all been opened;
viewtopic.php?p=25303&highlight=#25303
"The other two map sets are on a cheaper flimsy tan paper. The ink looks the same, but it just doesn't stand out as nice on the cheaper paper. The extra text states: City State of the Invincible Overlord Copyright 1976 by Judges Guild"

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:22 am 
 

Plaag wrote:IMHO then (all evidence weighed) it makes Hammermill Bond maps around the time of #12 CSIO Playing Aid (with large scale), and accompaning that is #4 City State players map

The 2nd print of #4 clearly pre-dates the 2nd print of #12, per observations at the foot of the previous page.
Whether that was an "overnight" change or not, I don't know. Suspect not...

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:29 am 
 

Plaag wrote:Now I follow where you are coming from, but if that is the case: that it is a carry over, then the '1st' would become 2nd and the '2nd' would become 3rd (for that map mind you)

No evidence to suggest anything other than that the "3rd" I-12 is actually a 1st I-12 without the yellow overprint.

(I'm still trying to figure out where I saw those other yellow overprint maps, too :( It wasn't Mike <improv>'s bundle, I don't think...).


aside: The increase in subs/sales from 50-60 up through 1,000 is still an issue that requires consideration in the context of prints/reprints required to fulfil customer needs.
Certainly the initial print run for GenCon would have been inadequate to continue through to December 76 (if you're still of the opinion that the "2nd" print didn't exist until that date).

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:47 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:K..before heading off to sleep..
Got maps (I should scan all of mine to keep univerasal color) Though just from glance looks like campaign map 1 has two printings (esp if you say color is like the one you sent)


Others such as the Thunderhold judges map ( http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/Thun ... Judge.html ) must have also been reprinted.

*

Following on from the observations on the Thunderhold players map viewtopic.php?p=44610&highlight=#44610 , my installment copies of the judges map are only marginally darker and still approximately match the paper stock of the non-existent(?!) Huberic map I sent that scan of: i.e. not particularly like the paper stock illustrated above and certainly not like that in this copy of JG #62 ; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8762208444 ).

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:09 pm 
 

(catch up...)
Plaag wrote:Why J has numbers and K does not I'm thinking maybe due to no K maps (like I and J have) With that being the case it's possible numbered journal I came with initial package (hell I have my history written that way, but I am also trying to get some research on that end). Thunderhold you'll see especially on the 'thank you' sheet you sent me does not include a J or K journal - and actually they only appear in the list bundled with item #21 listed in Journal L. Did J and K ever come with an installment..neither Campaign Installment nor Thunderhold specify having a journal/newsletter?]

Journal I:
"You have purchased a subscription entitling you the starter package, five bimonthly supplements and our newsletter"

=
heh. they never fully revised the Tac cards did they, per the "I" journal note?
(aside: You have the 2nd print as 135 cards despite stating 140 on the cover card. The cover card is obviously post-price rise and the white card pushes that back later: but still unknown whether the two go hand-in-hand timewise. Would be good to know... :?).

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:37 pm 
 

Rather than the Dec/Jan date stated on journal "J", is there any reason why that installment wasn't actually released on or after Jan 15th 1977 (per the Booty list note), rather than that being totally a pre-emptive note of price changes and stock available?
n.b. Journal "K" also notes complaints re. lateness of "J".

And CSIO #12 followed somewhat after that, too ("City State of the Invincible Overlord Playing Aid will be an item soon to be found in your local hobby store" (in "J")), even though apparently listed as being available earlier judging by the "J" journal cover date (like so many other items).

Journal "K" is almost certainly later than the Feb/Mar cover date, since it makes reference to the March 77 issue of Galaxy :)
Early-mid March perhaps?

So whereas I thought the 9th May 77 postmark on my "L" mailer was a bit "late", that's probably spot-on for initial release date, despite the April/May date on the "L" journal.

M mailer with 29th June 1977 postmark would be a heroic effort to get back on schedule (sort of...).

=
aside: the mailing card matches the stocklist on "K", not "J" (viz. priced #14) and no longer has that "as of Jan 15th" phrase.
If that- and the other features you note- also match CSIO #12 (which I don't have), the #12 might be well back into Feb 77, but still pre-actual "K" date, where it's noted as having been released.


*looks around for "L" journal in order to continue reading, but cannot find it...*

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:33 pm 
 

Don't have the time to respond to much of the above other then it wasn't Mike (improve) auction as I have that pic and don't see any yellow on the maps.

second found this in Dragon Magazine 8 (July 1977)
http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=nc1u77
Had to make it a gif file (dues to wanting to keep size and image really is not affected), but image still shows the '2nd' print maps of item #1 as there, (notice the dark splotches in the forests and also large map scale) IMHO they can not be 1st prints

Also Dragon 6 (April 1977) mentions #14 Ready Ref Package as now available - so there is a better date for that.

(oh and found in later Dragons Supra Sentinels and Book of Amulets and Talisman had been given product numbers 1220 and 1230)

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:31 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Don't have the time to respond to much of the above other then it wasn't Mike (improve) auction as I have that pic and don't see any yellow on the maps.

Yeah, didn't think so. Thanks for checking.

Plaag wrote:second found this in Dragon Magazine 8 (July 1977)
http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=nc1u77
Had to make it a gif file (dues to wanting to keep size and image really is not affected), but image still shows the '2nd' print maps of item #1 as there, (notice the dark splotches in the forests and also large map scale) IMHO they can not be 1st prints

*nods*. The reinforced line to the SW of the lake is the best indicator on that maps.

Plaag wrote:Also Dragon 6 (April 1977) mentions #14 Ready Ref Package as now available - so there is a better date for that.

If we're happy to take JG's word for that actually being available (although with the dates for the installments being later, the gap isn't quite so much). See also note on CSIO in TD#5 & 6, below.

Dragon stated to be sent on the first of the month. My mailed copies don't have postmarks, so I can't say for sure :(
The JG contents details in TD aren't complete, I think (e.g. "1st" (pre-PO Box) and "2nd" JG #4 are never noted explicitly until highlighted on CSIO #12 but both must pre-date the "2nd" I-12 which is present in CSIO #12-less supp. runs, appear to be "counted for" and are explicitly noted in the "initial package" of the booty list).


From the top (to see how well that meshes, if nothing else):

TD#3 (October 76) = mid Sep 76 for copy?
OK; does anyone have an enhanced image from page 22? :)
Already mentions Tac Cards (can you see them in that image or were they placed on the ad list just in time for the mad dash to October?).
"Brown on ivory" maps (no mention of highlighting, but I doubt they'd mention that ;)
"25 pages + huge map" = I1-30 (minus 2 page journal minus 4 pages for map sheets plus JG #4)? (Ditto noted in TD#4)
"Handy booklet" is noted, anyhow. But is it illustrated?

TD#4 (December 76) = mid Nov 76 for copy?
Shane; could you do a scan of the 1st print "I9" for that section of coastline between the Plaza of Profuse Pleasures and the Estuary of Roglaroon, please.
The illustrated section of map shows a tiny bit of coast that appears to match the "2nd" print which may have reinforced coast compared with the "1st" print.

TD#5 (March 77 - gap!) = mid Feb 77 for copy?
We're into "J" territory (Jan 15 77), Thunderhold map and all, even if the map has (c) 76 and the copy could theoretically be early.
CSIO #12 is stated to "now be available" but is not illustrated until TD#6. Hmm... some time during Feb 77 is probably fine for that in general context. Late Jan 77 is still not impossible. Neither is early March 77, I guess(?).

TD#6 (April 77, as above) = mid March 77 for copy?
CSIO #12 illustrated
Ref Sheet package "now available". *shrugs*. It's priced on "K" (early-mid March). Presumably with cover sheet present as illustrated, from the start.

=

Question aside, re. "K"
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0020.html
Where is the following quote come from:
"Those who received this installment in February 1977 did not get a Wizards Guide sheet"
(problematic if I'm thinking "K" is into March given the (supposed) "J" date, (actual?) "L" date and magazine ref. in "K").

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:22 pm 
 

In my attempt to save most of the JG forums for research purposes (and to see if I missed anything) I have indeed found this:
http://www.rpgswapshop.com/shop/CSIOo.JPG
from here:
viewtopic.php?t=2853

So the mailing card possibly came with the CSIO (though not sure what the other white piece of paper is at the top of the photo) and wondering if that players map is one sheet - 17"x22"

Ian expect an email.

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:35 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:So the mailing card possibly came with the CSIO (though not sure what the other white piece of paper is at the top of the photo) and wondering if that players map is one sheet - 17"x22"

"K" is more likely for that card in the "J" start sub.
There was no CSIO #12 in there, nor even a Guide to the City State.

That the mailing card was also in CSIO #12 does help pin down the timeframe, whereas you'd previously disagreed with me and thought it was earlier (i.e. "J").

I don't have one of those whatever-that-other-slip-of-paper-things-is in that bundle.

Good spot, Shane :)

  

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:19 pm 
 

From Page 1 of Judges Guild Questions I found this (rather rediscovered)

invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?

I dug out our JG stuff, and I made a mistake in my above post. The white Initial Guidelines Booklet I, and the four maps that make the CSotIO that I stated came from an envelope pre-dating October 76 was incorrect. That envelope is actually plain and void of any post-marks. The few P.O. marked envelopes we do have are marked from October 76 and various months into 77.

After examining the maps again from the plain envelope, I noticed they are also absent of the copyright of 1976 found on our other two sets of these maps. Right away I also noticed they are also of a higher quality, both in printing and especially the quality of paper. The four maps that make up the City-State are still like brand new. They're made of a heavy-stock Manila paper with nice dark-brown ink that's well printed. It's just nice and even, not blotchy, even the half tones are done right.

The other two map sets are on a cheaper flimsy tan paper. The ink looks the same, but it just doesn't stand out as nice on the cheaper paper. The extra text states: City State of the Invincible Overlord Copyright 1976 by Judges Guild.

Interesting indeed. And what's funny is in that same envelope I found a copy of The Official Dungeon of GenCon IX (1976). Not the latter reprinted JG ones, and not the Bob Blake red-covered one either. It's what I believe to be the actual tournament module for Round 1. And now with the discovery that the Guideline Booklet and the Maps could have come from that same GenCon in 76 it kind of make sense to me now remembering a few other items I picked up from a seller that tie into the Con that year. I'd but a buck on it for sure.

So three of what most would consider cool but So-So items in a collection (clean city-state maps, an odd colored Guideline book I, and incomplete Bob Blake pre-pub) may have just become a few GenCon relics. 8O Nice! :D

More research is needed.


So the plain envelope with white I and 4 CSIO Maps Mike(IO) has sounds exactly like the ones I got from the Titan lot (though he does not mention yellow marked on them - so thats still up in the air) Course it also has the GenCon IX tourney that is also an unknown - if its different then my copy (and the fact that the envelope may or may not have been sealed before being opened) But I'd also wager a buck this was all from GenCon IX.

I know I'll have to fix the '2nd' print maps as not coming first with #12, but sold earlier..What I really want though is a #9 the reduced judges map, that maybe could help this research concerning printings.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:12 pm 
 

Okay, not much time, but here is what I think the history of early JG items palyed out (of course this involves what I wrote prior, Dragon magazines, early journals)

1976            Sep           While writing Booklet "I", Bob and Bill come up with the Dungeon Tac Cards and publish those first (product #2).

1976         Oct        

"I" (product #3) is printed (possibly Sept/Oct).  Of course, Bob didn't want to send out the white copies, so he sent it out only to those who had subscribed at GenCon and were thus already waiting on their subscription.  (Note: One mailer included the original 4-section map, and Gen Con IX dungeon tourney module by Bob Blake - Ammended in that mailer was not dated, but evidence sort of points to this being from GenCon IX)

At some point Bob also did the 17"x22" Player's Map of the City State (product #4 - 4 sections as stated in Journal I). (Plus the Guildmember Sub consisted of 25 pages of material (16 page I booklet, 4 pages of players map, 5 pages of I dungeon maps) plus Charts&Rules (I-6 to I-8..the RR sheets) plus 135 cards (Tac Cards) plus 1 Huge Map (CSIO 4 section Judge Map)

Bob called the printer to get more copies of the original 4-section map (had not sold out at GenCon, but they needed more for the subs coming in - Aug/Sept they had everything in order so that they could post an ad in Dragon #3 so since Oct date was due to Mike-IOs mistaken mailer, sept/oct could be when first subs started to go out), but the printer screwed up and printed them on 17"x22" paper, giving birth to product #9. (Oct/Nov they most likely got more correct CSIO maps)

1976         Oct-Dec         Bob then destroyed the remainder of the White cover "I"s when the Brown cover "I" was printed. (Journal J states the errate corrected 'recent' booklet I was released..so recent = Dec? or Nov?)

The Initial Installment was then sent out, (Sometime after Nov 10th and those that ordered before that date got $1 off the Sub price) which consisted of:

Five dungeon levels (I-1 to I-5), three chart sheets (I-6 to I-8), City State Player Map (I-9 to I-12), a Brown cover "I" (I-13 to I-28), Journal issue #0, I-29 and I-30 -- all in one envelope.

1976         Nov         Product #9 (City State Judges Map) is released.

Nov/Dec - Players map (#4) 17x22 map sheet developed around this time (Dec most likely as with Thunderhold since have (c)1976 and stated in Journal J)

1976         Dec         The first employee was Norma Bledsaw (Bob's wife), who was the first to get paid. Bob was working furiously on expanding the City State, and by this time was ready to release the 40-page (grown to 56-page) Guide to the City State of the Invincible Overlord (product #10) (actually by Journal J's account this book was after Thunderhold..'the end of the month' so Jan 1977?).

1976 1977         Dec         Developing Thunderhold, Bob releases that with a series of general guidelines as the 16-page Thunderhold "Installment J," along with 4 dungeon levels, an RR, and the JG Journal "J" (issue #1).

Jan/Feb77 CSIO play aid released (now states 17x22 player map, course that was stated in Journal J and all points after as well)

Mar77 Campaign Installment (K) released

May9th Tegel Installment (L) released

(((Have to run, but hopefully my thought is there..and can always be picked apart as I wrote this fast..and I know debate is coming :) )

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:28 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:From Page 1 of Judges Guild Questions I found this (rather rediscovered)
invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?

Shane, I get the feeling I'm going round in circles here and I've referred to IO's previous post which you clipped several times before.

Mike wrote that the October 76 postmarked mailers had brown "I"s. Why are you back to November/December yet again, if that's the case?

re. #4. The second print (e.g. http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... 2-2nd.html ) is lacking the redrawn coast, as noted before.
The redrawn coast, however, is clearly shown in the advert in Dragon #4 (you emailed me the relevant section of map from the 1st print, rather than posting here).
Since Dragon #4 copy would have had to have been ready by mid-November at the absolute latest and the 1st print JG#4 predates the 2nd print JG#4 which predates the 2nd print JG #1 (with wholesale coastline change) which was before mid-Nov, how d'you get the 1st print JG#4 to date to Nov/Dec?

(And 2nd print JG#1 is still listed as "released with CSIO #12" on the site, too, which clearly cannot be as noted from the Dragon #4 evidence, Mike's mailers, etc...).

The swap over in name from "Dungeons and Dragons" to (generic) "Fantasy" also should have happened early on (Sep?) before things were smoothed out.

You have the Tac Cards as Sep, yet the first installment at mid-late Nov (2 months later), yet journal "I" ("Oct 76") clearly states "You have purchased a subscription entitling you the starter package, five bimonthly supplements and our newsletter" (whole package) and the Tac Cards as "hot off the press".

Do you have strong evidence to run contrary to the above?
(aside: Nov 10th date comes from where? Doesn't immediately ring any bells, that one...)

Plaag wrote:(((Have to run, but hopefully my thought is there..and can always be picked apart as I wrote this fast..and I know debate is coming :))

Yeah, apologies if I'm sounding frustrated, but I thought we'd "fixed" most of the above, even if that's not yet reflected in the listings.
Not claiming it's perfect but fits better, placing emphasis more towards the stronger evidence that we have.

Thanks.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:18 am 
 

faro wrote:
Plaag wrote:From Page 1 of Judges Guild Questions I found this (rather rediscovered)
invincibleoverlord wrote:Thanks for the info Plaag! I've been trying to shed some light on this for years. JG guy?

Shane, I get the feeling I'm going round in circles here and I've referred to IO's previous post which you clipped several times before.

Mike wrote that the October 76 postmarked mailers had brown "I"s. Why are you back to November/December yet again, if that's the case?


FUBARed this: okay...
Mike (IO) after stating about the white I, maps with that, and the post marked envelope Oct76 with brown I, maps, journal wrote this 'The four maps that make up the City State that came with the White Booklet are identical to the others. Again, only it is void of the copyright.' (All 3 versions of 'Section Four' are different No scale/no copyright, No scale/yellow swamp/no copyright, and Scale, Copyright - so either he missed the scale not being on his maps with the white I and thus this is the 1st: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html or he has something else different then the know - since he'd not miss the yellow)

James Mishler after getting off the phone with Bob:
jamesmishler wrote:Just got off the phone with Bob. Here's the skinny on the white versus brown covers...

The White Cover is the True First "I."

What happened is this...

When Bob and Bill Owen took the maps to Gen Con 1975, they had *only* the maps. The maps were rolled; there was at that time no "I" to sell.

The maps sold gangbusters. When Bill got there on Friday he started selling them out of the back of his truck, as they did not have a table. Then Bob got there on Saturday, got a table, and they started selling even more. People were wondering about the details of the places on the map.

The map was, of course, Bob's city from his campaign. Because so many people were asking about the details, Bob figured they could make more money by selling the details as well, so he came up with the idea of the subscription service. He started selling subs to the City State at the sho on Saturday.

Then, after the show, he went home and started writing it...

Bob did most of the writing, while Bill handled the printing. The first printing was the White True First, and it was when they got it back that they realized two things:

1) They had forgotten to put the copyright notice on the booklet. Bob didn't want to send them out, but he realized that he needed to get that first sub set out, so they were shipped anyway, and they continued to ship the True First White Cover until they got the Brown Cover with copyright notice later in 1976 (Bob could not recall at the time the exact month of that).

2) Between Bob completing his layout of the set and Bill getting it printed, Bill added "Initial Guidelines Booklet I" to the top of the booklet, "I" for "Initial Issue," as he felt that it would help spur sales. Bob thought it was a silly idea, but had to go with it from then on, and that's why they went on later with "J'," "K," and so forth!

A couple of other tidbits gleaned from the discussion: (Ammended taking out only the Group One tidbit)

2) The smaller sized City State maps (the whole City State on one page) were initially a printer accident! The printer printed the CSIO on one page at a smaller scale due to miscommunications. Bob bought the smalelr prints at a discount and ended up selling and using them anyway.

3) Judges Guild was incorporated on or around July 4, 1976 (Ammended as later is know to be 1977). About that time Bob bought out Bill, who was not active in the day-to-day operations of the company.

4) Bob said they sold about 40 to 50 subs at that first Gen Con, and continued to sell subs like gangbusters through mail order thereafter.

I meant to ask about how the other "I" sheets all fit in with everything, but we went on to other things... I'll try to remember to ask next time we speak.


James was also one to mention #2 Tac cards being printed before Booklet I..although later:
jamesmishler wrote:Another thing I've noticed is that by "M" at least (Jun/Jul 1977), the Dungeon Tac Cards are included with the "Initial Package" deal, though I do not know whether they were included with the first sub installment sent out in October 1976...

Mike (I/O) had White I, CSIO maps in unmarked envelope and those envelopes Oct76 had Journal I/Brown I/CSIO Maps (Yet Journal I lists all items #1-10 - #1-#9 had to have existed around the Journal I writing, so items had to have been printed earlier then Oct76 if ti was in mailer)

faro wrote:re. #4. The second print (e.g. http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... 2-2nd.html ) is lacking the redrawn coast, as noted before.
The redrawn coast, however, is clearly shown in the advert in Dragon #4 (you emailed me the relevant section of map from the 1st print, rather than posting here).
Since Dragon #4 copy would have had to have been ready by mid-November at the absolute latest and the 1st print JG#4 predates the 2nd print JG#4 which predates the 2nd print JG #1 (with wholesale coastline change) which was before mid-Nov, how d'you get the 1st print JG#4 to date to Nov/Dec?

(And 2nd print JG#1 is still listed as "released with CSIO #12" on the site, too, which clearly cannot be as noted from the Dragon #4 evidence, Mike's mailers, etc...).

The swap over in name from "Dungeons and Dragons" to (generic) "Fantasy" also should have happened early on (Sep?) before things were smoothed out.

You have the Tac Cards as Sep, yet the first installment at mid-late Nov (2 months later), yet journal "I" ("Oct 76") clearly states "You have purchased a subscription entitling you the starter package, five bimonthly supplements and our newsletter" (whole package) and the Tac Cards as "hot off the press".

Do you have strong evidence to run contrary to the above?
(aside: Nov 10th date comes from where? Doesn't immediately ring any bells, that one...)

Plaag wrote:(((Have to run, but hopefully my thought is there..and can always be picked apart as I wrote this fast..and I know debate is coming :))

Yeah, apologies if I'm sounding frustrated, but I thought we'd "fixed" most of the above, even if that's not yet reflected in the listings.
Not claiming it's perfect but fits better, placing emphasis more towards the stronger evidence that we have.

Thanks.


Actually I sent you the Judges CSIO portions of map, not players..Dragon 4 shows partly players, and partly judges since it incorperates the buildings, yet has those alleys blacked in.  Both player maps (4 sections equals 17x22) and (1 section equals 17x22) have that same bit of coast..(would be hard to argue either against each other compared to the Dragon 4 ad) Both players even have the 'blotches' that http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... d-3rd.html has.
Idea 1: When #4 (4 sections was created), #1 CSIO '1st' yellow swamp maps existed, and when #4 (1 section 17x22 map) was created, they took the 4 sections map as the source minus yellow and added the small scale.
Idea 2: Now why the 'blotches' on these maps: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html (they would not resize up from the players map), but maybe the CSIO map prints got dirty/over exposed during the creation of the players map..so that is why the 'blotches' exist on the #4 both prints and #1 '2nd print'

The Nov 10th date comes from Dragon#3 JG ad..may have relavence to something, but not this it seems.

Journal I: While the super-detailed city had since been tastefully offset-printed in eye-ease brown, the piles of notebook paper was to be reworked into a handy offset-reduced booklet (this refering to #10?). This, and the hundreds of bits of paper to be pasted on the Tac Cards, delayed our mailing deadline by exactly six days. But, at no higher cost to you, we think you'll agree its well worth the wait.

#1 @ GenCon
#3 white I writen after - Early Sept
#4-8 in development
#9 as mistake when trying to get more #1 maps
#10, #2 work in progress
Sub with White I and #1 maps (GenCon left over or new batch after #9 mistake get there in time?)
#3 Brown I - Late Sept/Early Oct (no exact day on mailers..only mailed in month of October)
Journal I (After white I /sub was sent)
...This is were things bog down as Journal I Booty List states #4 is 4 sections, (my yellow swamp copy/no copyright) and must belong with #1 (yellow swamp, no copyright) So what CSIO maps does Mike (IO) get with the brown I and Journal I since only the pre Oct envelope has the no copyright CSIO maps. If its the scaled version of the CSIO, then the scaled player goes with that..yet the scaled player map is 1 section (as Journal J and on states) so can not possibly be since Journal I states 4 sections... There is the mystery.... (That and #9 would really be helpful..especially if it had anythign relavant..ie yellow swamp, scale, no copyright, etc)

Damn this post just went off everywhere..SORRY :oops:
I have an analytical mind, and needs grounding sometime when I don't see everything, yet it is all right there in front of me.
Does this add up more, or have I just made a slight mess of it.
I swear I would like this somewhat hammered out..

oh and hey anyone in PA.. Penn State University, the Behrend Campus in Erie, PA, has archived information regarding Hammermill and its history over the years so if anyone can look into the watermark for Hammermill Bond it may help.

Okay I'm out...

ShaneG.

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Post Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:56 pm 
 

#4 Player Map (just facts)

4 sections are smaller in scale then 17x22 map
Cryptic Citadel - outer wall to outer wall on 4 section maps is 2"
Cryptic Citadel - outer wall to outer wall on 17x22 map is 2 1/8"
Size difference corrisponds throughout, lettered and numbered scales along edge, holding up both ant trying to line them up.
17x22 map's lettered or numbered scale along edge is 1.5" each, 4 section map's are 1 7/16"

Conclusion #4 4 section map is ever slightly smaller (4.2% smaller)

'I-9' has a broken '-' on both copies.
Both have broken line above the second 't' in 'State'
Both have 'blotches' throughout various portions of forest in th esame places and patterns.

'I-12' is in two different positions comparing both maps.
17x22 has map scale
4 section map has yellow highlighted swamp

Alleyways are blacked out on both maps

17x22 map has little 'tabs' cut away from blackened alleyways
4 section map does not have the 'tabs'

Maps to follow
(Edit: TinyPic.com not letting me upload scans right now)
(Edit 2: and now it works..)

I-9 4 section map
http://i2.tinypic.com/oqvdol.jpg

I-9 17x22 map
http://i2.tinypic.com/oqvdkl.jpg

ShaneG.

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