Early JG items discussion
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:42 am 
 

Plaag wrote:February 4th, 2006:
Added information and/or scans for Journal I 1st, City State Map, Booklet I 1st, City State Player Map and Dungeon Level Maps I 1-5 1st.

February 3rd, 2006:
Added information and/or scans for Ready Ref Charts Package, Characters Checklist, Ref Sheets I-6/I-7/I-8 and CSWE 1st.

ShaneG.

Oh boy, that looks like it was fun to do. Thanks :)

Where you guessing with http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0000.html ?
afaik, "2nd" is still 1976 and was sent with the Initial Subscription (for which there's less evidence for the "1st").

=
Looks like http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0029.html is back to "awaiting further information". *shrugs*
(Is probably safe to call "From Item #27 5th Printing" a "3rd" in context; so long as no others creep into the list ;))

=
Guess I'd better scan that other included sheet from the "J" installment, then.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:13 am 
 

faro wrote:
Plaag wrote:February 4th, 2006:
Added information and/or scans for Journal I 1st, City State Map, Booklet I 1st, City State Player Map and Dungeon Level Maps I 1-5 1st.

February 3rd, 2006:
Added information and/or scans for Ready Ref Charts Package, Characters Checklist, Ref Sheets I-6/I-7/I-8 and CSWE 1st.

ShaneG.

Oh boy, that looks like it was fun to do. Thanks :)

Where you guessing with http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0000.html ?
afaik, "2nd" is still 1976 and was sent with the Initial Subscription (for which there's less evidence for the "1st").

=
Looks like http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0029.html is back to "awaiting further information". *shrugs*
(Is probably safe to call "From Item #27 5th Printing" a "3rd" in context; so long as no others creep into the list ;))

=
Guess I'd better scan that other included sheet from the "J" installment, then.


Yeah suppose 1976 would be the safe bet, (until/if ever) a mailer and initial subscription come up for auction.

Debated keeping '3rd' but then seeing as how the #14 one is double sided/thick font, well thought to keep them seperate for the time being.

Shall look for a 'smaller' email this time. :wink:

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:54 am 
 

Plaag wrote:Yeah suppose 1976 would be the safe bet, (until/if ever) a mailer and initial subscription come up for auction.

The sub run that started with "J" didn't have a "I" journal, so (unless it went missing) I guess they didn't backfill that issue - and it's not on the booty list for the "Initial Package".
However, that other run I have that started from "I" (y'know, the seller with your 1st print Tac Cards) had an "I" journal which I'm pretty sure has the page numbers.
Am also reasonably certain those were "installments as issued" rather than having picked up the journals later, judging by the context of finds, from what I recall of the discussion and that there was no CSIO #12.

Mike/<IO> would be able to confirm whether one or the other was in the envelope, of course!

Brings me around to the second point;
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html
> "2nd Printing: These came folded with the City State of the Invincible Overlord Playing Aid."
I don't think so; well, not "first seen" there, anyhow.
Same circumstances as "I"-lettered journal, above, except the "J"-start installment also has those printings and not so much as a hint of a CSIO.
Those were surely available earlier than the #12 packet, and quite likely with (at least some of) the first regular "orange I" installment packets.

(From what evidence I've seen, anyhow...)

Plaag wrote:Debated keeping '3rd' but then seeing as how the #14 one is double sided/thick font, well thought to keep them seperate for the time being.

Shall look for a 'smaller' email this time. :wink:

Just as well that didn't actually arrive last time, if you'd been on a dial-up line!

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:41 am 
 

OK, I had a think about that letterless-I journal, Shane... you're not gonna like me for this. ;)

Harking back to the above, the only "proof" that you've got of that being the "1st print" is the context of the find.
But since we suspect that batch was put together, that's not much good.

I wondered why/whether the page numbers might've been ditched rather than inserted later, then it occurred to me that that was exactly what happened in "K".

If you look at the ink patternation at the top of the JG header, I think you'll see your "1st print" has the same black band with jaggies across the top that is found on "J" & "K" journals.
viz. far more likely to be a reprint of the "true" "1st print" and thus (if anything) the one packaged with #21... unless they were created half-way through the print run of "I" journals, but that's less likely with the page number missing.
(This also makes sense as Titan was likely to have "remainder stock" and extra copies... *still awaiting input from Brian* :))

Could you please swap the 1st & 2nd prints around, pending any further input.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:33 am 
 

Journal I: The 'jaggies' ( :) nice term) are slightly present on the second, just how the printing of it could have removed much of the black bank. Of course all 3 of those early journals have the same banner. (Brian's btw is like the '2nd', though he'll have to confirm if his has page numbers or not.)
All my journals came from the Journal Value Pack so that is what I have for reference (save for a Q and T from what was an unopened mailer). So I can confirm where they came from..though they as of yet no other journal has other 'printings'. Would like to hear anyone with early journals where and how they got theirs.
Why J has numbers and K does not I'm thinking maybe due to no K maps (like I and J have) With that being the case it's possible numbered journal I came with initial package (hell I have my history written that way, but I am also trying to get some research on that end). Thunderhold you'll see especially on the 'thank you' sheet you sent me does not include a J or K journal - and actually they only appear in the list bundled with item #21 listed in Journal L. Did J and K ever come with an installment..neither Campaign Installment nor Thunderhold specify having a journal/newsletter?

As for http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html I believe I was intending to say thats were my maps came from and should include they were with the initial subscription. I am still curious as to why '2nd' Section 4 has the large scale map and changed wording, then it is gone and wording reverts back to the 1st for the '3rd printing' Plus why make one map sheet a different paper?

Can someone drag Mike (IO) back here? (or was it this kind of discussion that made him leave :? )

Anyhow these messages shall be moved to the 'Early JG Items' thread.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:36 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:All my journals came from the Journal Value Pack so that is what I have for reference (save for a Q and T from what was an unopened mailer). So I can confirm where they came from..

I take it that's the other reason you have the "2nd" as presumed to be later, then?

Eh... no reason they couldn't have reprinted those before running out of stock and left the "now-old" ones to one side to be remaindered at a later date. It is confusing, however... *shrugs*

Plaag wrote:Why J has numbers and K does not I'm thinking maybe due to no K maps (like I and J have) With that being the case it's possible numbered journal I came with initial package (hell I have my history written that way, but I am also trying to get some research on that end).

Yup, I'll go for that way around, on balance.

Had been puzzling over whether the un-numbered "I" was "before (/early "I" installment)" or "after" (/later "I" installment); and "after" makes more sense given the rejigging of the header so that it was printed fully (with the black bar at the top showing, as on "J" and "K"; plus the "I" numbering possibly no longer being "required" in a later sales context.

Plaag wrote:Thunderhold you'll see especially on the 'thank you' sheet you sent me does not include a J or K journal - and actually they only appear in the list bundled with item #21 listed in Journal L. Did J and K ever come with an installment..neither Campaign Installment nor Thunderhold specify having a journal/newsletter?

Yes. It makes sense that they did, even though those weren't listed as separately available (after all they have no actual "content").

In this latest sequence I picked up, as noted, I know the sub started with "J" and there's a "J" journal, but no "I" journal.

Plaag wrote:As for http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html I believe I was intending to say thats were my maps came from and should include they were with the initial subscription.

The ones you have listed as "1st"?
(Would be good to add a note re. missing dates/wording/scale on those, in order to clarify the printing differences).

Plaag wrote:I am still curious as to why '2nd' Section 4 has the large scale map and changed wording, then it is gone and wording reverts back to the 1st for the '3rd printing' Plus why make one map sheet a different paper?

You mean the wording from "Dungeons and Dragons" to "Fantasy/Role-Playing Games" and thence back.
Perhaps your "1st" printings are actually much later after all?
In fact I'm tending that way, too, now, having seen those yellow-highlight ones at least once before, but no white "I"...

It would actually have made sense NOT to have noted Dungeons & Dragons to begin with, as they didn't have the license at the start.

Anyhow; I have the [ed. whatever-it-is-map] (from that "J" installment run, automatically back-filled with the "Initial Package" and thus 1976 at latest) with a PO Box 773 addy and no copyright date! :D
Beat that if you can ;)
I'll have to dig out the other run some time...

(Erm, could you put the section numbers on those in http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html , just in case I've gotten totally confused!)

Image
*eeps at the lousy/rough scan*

If not, say "thanks" to Titan for endangering the whole print order for the sake of a mix-and-match with the white "I" to get what they thought was a saleable grouping.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:45 pm 
 

Oops, I think I've just realised the above scan is of
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0009.html

Hang on whilst I shuffle some maps... :oops:

[DW: edit] - see below

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:47 pm 
 

Wow, this thread so far certainly seems really 2-sided, 7 replies & 13 views. :P


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:50 pm 
 

Ah... that's more like it! Sorry 'bout that.

My (un-numbered) I-12 corresponds to http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html and the I-12 section of the map scanned above (this has I-9 through I-12 labelled on each quadrant).

I'm not at all convinced http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html comes before that since it is missing the PO Box addy and has text and lack of scale that corresponds to the (known later) "collector's edition" package (=3rd I-12).

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:51 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Wow, this thread so far certainly seems really 2-sided, 7 replies & 13 views. :P

The view counter resets when the thread is split, Brian.
I can't blame anyone else for avoiding this and the resultant migrane, however! :D

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:04 pm 
 

i would love to jump in, dig all my material out and add to it, but simply havent got the time  :?

sorry  :(

its v.interesting to read tho - a damn good effort i have to say!

Al

ps. *heartily shoves david at his E-MAIL INBOX*  :P



  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:04 pm 
 

Not much time today to check up on all this, what with the SuperBowl. (Edit: okay did more then I thought..but then I do have a couple of hours to kill)

http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html (1st print: all but 4th section has the PO box address)
This also is like http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0004.html I-12 does not have the address.
Now concerning the switch..I looked again at the history: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/HistoryJudgesGuild.html
"They had their momentary flush of success when Bill got the call from TSR saying we are withdrawing your right to publish our copyrighted material... unless you pay a royalty. "Push us hard enough and we'll fall over, and who will more effectively make your mishmash of game playable and organized?" They negotiated with TSR for and eventually got the license."
Thus the maps having (c)TSR would have been 1st, since it was what got the call from TSR..now the eventually is an unknown time span currently, but when ever the next batch (2nd print #1 which would be after the #9 1st prints) was printed they could have pulled the (c)TSr in that time, before then being allowed and thus releasing the maps again.
Actually with that, it would explain why http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... et3rd.html has 3 maps like the 2nd, and a corrected or licensed again map of section 4 on different paper.
I'm not sure what scan you posted, if thats #9 (is it a single 8x11 sheet or 17x22 sheet?) or a #4 (course the 'thank you' sheet has #4 as a single sheet as well..so perhaps there is at least a 2nd print for #4 being 17x22?)

The journal I is a good arguement (but till someone can verify a good source for their journal coming from early on, or James can ask Bob, I'll keep from updating that) Course wouldn't have time today anyway..

Side note: What about the I maps and I ref sheets..you have a take on those (esp I-7 in another place..plus the color of the papers of course)

And also ..would like to have a scan of those I maps when you get a chance (jpg worked fine for the mailers) since you've got another printing or two (if that missing I-12 is on a single sheet, then we have a confirmed I-4 and I-12, but why would they be like that)

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:52 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html (1st print: all but 4th section has the PO box address)
This also is like http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0004.html I-12 does not have the address.
Now concerning the switch..I looked again at the history: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/HistoryJudgesGuild.html
"They had their momentary flush of success when Bill got the call from TSR saying we are withdrawing your right to publish our copyrighted material... unless you pay a royalty. "Push us hard enough and we'll fall over, and who will more effectively make your mishmash of game playable and organized?" They negotiated with TSR for and eventually got the license."
Thus the maps having (c)TSR would have been 1st, since it was what got the call from TSR..

I'm not buying that as a causal link "proving" the current printing sequence! :)
And it certainly doesn't imply they had "Dungeons and Dragons" printed on the maps from the beginning.
(How could they be "publishing our copyrighted material" if there's nothing in a map to make more playable the game? Are you 100% sure on the date for that quote: it doesn't feel at all right for being back in Aug 76, given that wording).

That you have a stated 1st print I-12 that conforms to the known remainder (of 3rd print) I-12 with regards to the lack of scale and the "Dungeons and Dragons" text implies one is closely related to the other.
And I don't really believe they put the "Dungeons and Dragons" text back millimetre-perfect at a later date.
The missing PO Box addy on the "3rd" implies later reprint. The "1st" is more than likely to follow, IMHO.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:24 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:The journal I is a good arguement (but till someone can verify a good source for their journal coming from early on, or James can ask Bob, I'll keep from updating that) Course wouldn't have time today anyway..

The "I" journal in that previous (1st print Tac card) run was from installments rather than pieced together from later components to the best of my knowledge (certainly not using #14 or CSIO #12, anyhow, since neither was in that series of auctions).

Am not sure what Bob might be able to dig out of his brain that would help confirm definitively either way... :(

Plaag wrote:Side note: What about the I maps and I ref sheets..you have a take on those (esp I-7 in another place..plus the color of the papers of course)

Very good question. Thank you, Shane.

The I-7 in the "J" + automatic backfill run has "I-7" to the right of "Judges Guild".
And the I-7 over AC5 is millimetre perfect on the other two I-7s.
Gee... thanks for the headache :(
*
On that basis, the "I" upwards run I have may actually have been started marginally later than the "J" run, after all, but still from installments rather than as #12, etc.; although they would have reprinted I-7 before running out of stock and thus the two could easily have been in concurrent usage for a time (absolutely impossible to say).

Nothing either way to pinpoint whether the "I" journal (currently stated "1st") you have is sooner or later based on that, since that's still a piecemeal lot, unfortunately. (And I have severe doubts on those maps being "1st" following that I-12 comparison)
Darn, I wish the "J" run had a "I" journal! :?

=
Watching the Superbowl sounds like a good idea just now :(

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:36 pm 
 

http://www.judgesguild.net/guildhall/jo ... al_j.shtml (though they say they used the header for I..text is Journal J)

Sorry bit off topic but regarding ERRATA in this journal..Orange booklet I's of mine have the corrections (but am wondering if any Orang I's do not ..course the white I has the double column of percentages, etc just a thought)

On topic..yeah I took it from here: http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergam ... c&index=50 and well the fact that Journal J came out in December (but see now no date for that specific comment was given) - though is there a break anywhere regarding TSR removed from products other then when JG lost the license in the 80s?

Oh well talk to you tommorrow..

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:07 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:http://www.judgesguild.net/guildhall/jo ... al_j.shtml (though they say they used the header for I..text is Journal J)

Sorry bit off topic but regarding ERRATA in this journal..Orange booklet I's of mine have the corrections (but am wondering if any Orang I's do not ..course the white I has the double column of percentages, etc just a thought)

Good thought to check.
I presumed "Recent reprint" to mean the Orange "I" per the initial sub.
The one I have with the "J" + auto backfill "I" is "standard", anyhow, but it's not impossible that one might crop up otherwise. (The "Cases Involving Characters of Different Alignments" at the foot of I-25 is the easiest spot to confirm).

Will see whether I can track down the other "known old" "orange I".

Plaag wrote:On topic..yeah I took it from here: http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergam ... c&index=50 and well the fact that Journal J came out in December (but see now no date for that specific comment was given) - though is there a break anywhere regarding TSR removed from products other then when JG lost the license in the 80s?

Thanks for the link. Worth citing as a source, I think :)
Doesn't give any hint on timespans and still nothing to say the original maps had "Dungeons and Dragons" on them.
There was no intermediate "break" in the relationship, afaik.

"We had our momentary flush of success when I got the call from TSR saying we are withdrawing your right to publish our copyrighted material" must surely be post-I ref sheets?
There's nothing to say that was contemporaneous with the previous sentence and the next para skips to late 1977.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:42 pm 
 

faro wrote:Oops, I think I've just realised the above scan is of
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0009.html

Hang on whilst I shuffle some maps... :oops:

OK, OK... that one above (that I sent you the I-12 quadrant of) is actually JG #4 (players, small name labels blanked out), not #9 (judges, all name labels present).
Which makes sense, since JG #4 was automatically sent as part of the initial installment for that "J" sub (and JG #9 wasn't... frustrating that I don't seem to have a copy of that, then- not off-hand, anyhow).

=
:) I've found what components I have from that "I" & upwards installment run (Keith's with the 1st print Tac Cards, from which I didn't win every installment, alas) and those "I" maps match the "J" sub + auto-backfill exactly.
4* http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html (including I-12 of the http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html flavor)
plus 1* http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0004.html with http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... apI12.html showing PO Box addy, scale, I-12 in different position and "Fantasy Role Playing Aids" rather than "Dungeons and Dragons".

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:59 pm 
 

Having finally gotten around to those, the white I-2 to I-5 maps are fun...

As you probably noted before (lazy me for not checking), white I-4 & I-5 are missing the area letter codes, as well as all of these missing the copyright text.

I'm happier with these sheets being released early (with the white "I" booklet before the regular installment run?), since there's a clearer progression and no conflicting evidence like there is with the I-12 sector of JG #4 and JG #1s currently listed as "1st" matching that stated-"3rd".


(aside: So that "I-4"-less "I-4" did just have that "label" fall off, rather than possibly being an earlier version?)

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:47 pm 
 

K..before heading off to sleep..
Got maps (I should scan all of mine to keep univerasal color) Though just from glance looks like campaign map 1 has two printings (esp if you say color is like the one you sent)
Second..not sure if its just me reading this in a daze, but I'm lost..What maps/sheets/etc did you get with what lots (My Tac Card seller/your I mailer/etc stuff like that first and foremost)
PM/email is fine..just so much scattered and whew brain drain trying to sort it all.
feck it, I'm going to bed.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:47 pm 
 

Ah...
viewtopic.php?p=44114&highlight=#44114
"1st print: has yellow highlight on swamp areas, 'for use with Dungeons & Dragons', no copyright date"

OK... not 100% significant in its own right, but when that tallies with white paper dotted I-2 to I-5 being apparently earlier and the white "I" booklet, definitely much more so. Thanks.

Stepping back...
JG #4 (I-12 quad)
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... apI12.html
The differences I have are the different positioning of the I-12 label, Fantasy Role-Playing instead of D&D, PO Box addy and scale shown.
The "Gold Bosum Pool" has the same two dark splotches to the North-West and a "weak" line to the south of the outlet in both the stated "1st" and the copy I have here.

However...
JG #1 (I-12 sheet)
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html is a perfect match for
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html, aside from the yellow overprint (it even has the break in the line above the last "T" in City State.
As before, the differences I have are the Fantasy Role-Playing instead of D&D, PO Box addy and scale shown. The I-12 label is not present.
(And here's the clincher, I think)
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html and
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html
have no particularly evident dark splotches to the North-West of "Gold Bosum Pool" and a "weak" line to the south of the outlet.
But http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html
has two dense dark splotches to the North-West of "Gold Bosum Pool" and a "reinforced" dark line to the south of the outlet.

Apparent conclusion;
http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur3rd.html isn't actually a third print, it's a genuine "first print" without the yellow overprint.
Does the paper match, Shane?

What's more, I just opened my Collector's Edition map pack (blue cover sheet, reverse stating highest number 59 postage wef 1/1/78) and all I have are lousy 2nd prints; http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur2nd.html :)
[ed.]actually the CE I-12 is possibly slightly different paper stock, but the difference is small even though it might be evidence of re-printing. The CE maps are folded blank-side out whereas the installment copies are all printed-side out.

By some fluke, your(?) pack must have had a residual copy of http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... ur1st.html without the yellow overprint.
Could you please confirm that this was a massive wild goose chase ;)

=
On the down-side, if that's the case it clearly indicates the JG still had old stock "available" long after the original release; which could easily apply to other items, too.
And down-side(2), there's nothing to indicate whether those maps were first released without the yellow overprint; (both) prior to the "orange I" release, although some may have slipped in as overstock. The copyright 1976 text on the PO Box maps clearly matches the orange "I" booklet.

  
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