faro wrote:

Plaag wrote:February 4th, 2006:
Added information and/or scans for Journal I 1st, City State Map, Booklet I 1st, City State Player Map and Dungeon Level Maps I 1-5 1st.

February 3rd, 2006:
Added information and/or scans for Ready Ref Charts Package, Characters Checklist, Ref Sheets I-6/I-7/I-8 and CSWE 1st.

ShaneG.

Oh boy, that looks like it was fun to do. Thanks

Where you guessing with http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0000.html ?
afaik, "2nd" is still 1976 and was sent with the Initial Subscription (for which there's less evidence for the "1st").

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Looks like http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0029.html is back to "awaiting further information". *shrugs*
(Is probably safe to call "From Item #27 5th Printing" a "3rd" in context; so long as no others creep into the list )

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Guess I'd better scan that other included sheet from the "J" installment, then.

Yeah suppose 1976 would be the safe bet, (until/if ever) a mailer and initial subscription come up for auction.

Debated keeping '3rd' but then seeing as how the #14 one is double sided/thick font, well thought to keep them seperate for the time being.

Shall look for a 'smaller' email this time.

ShaneG.

OK, I had a think about that letterless-I journal, Shane... you're not gonna like me for this.

Harking back to the above, the only "proof" that you've got of that being the "1st print" is the context of the find.
But since we suspect that batch was put together, that's not much good.

I wondered why/whether the page numbers might've been ditched rather than inserted later, then it occurred to me that that was exactly what happened in "K".

If you look at the ink patternation at the top of the JG header, I think you'll see your "1st print" has the same black band with jaggies across the top that is found on "J" & "K" journals.
viz. far more likely to be a reprint of the "true" "1st print" and thus (if anything) the one packaged with #21... unless they were created half-way through the print run of "I" journals, but that's less likely with the page number missing.
(This also makes sense as Titan was likely to have "remainder stock" and extra copies... *still awaiting input from Brian* )

Could you please swap the 1st & 2nd prints around, pending any further input.

Plaag wrote:All my journals came from the Journal Value Pack so that is what I have for reference (save for a Q and T from what was an unopened mailer). So I can confirm where they came from..

I take it that's the other reason you have the "2nd" as presumed to be later, then?

Eh... no reason they couldn't have reprinted those before running out of stock and left the "now-old" ones to one side to be remaindered at a later date. It is confusing, however... *shrugs*

Plaag wrote:Why J has numbers and K does not I'm thinking maybe due to no K maps (like I and J have) With that being the case it's possible numbered journal I came with initial package (hell I have my history written that way, but I am also trying to get some research on that end).

Yup, I'll go for that way around, on balance.

Had been puzzling over whether the un-numbered "I" was "before (/early "I" installment)" or "after" (/later "I" installment); and "after" makes more sense given the rejigging of the header so that it was printed fully (with the black bar at the top showing, as on "J" and "K"; plus the "I" numbering possibly no longer being "required" in a later sales context.

Plaag wrote:Thunderhold you'll see especially on the 'thank you' sheet you sent me does not include a J or K journal - and actually they only appear in the list bundled with item #21 listed in Journal L. Did J and K ever come with an installment..neither Campaign Installment nor Thunderhold specify having a journal/newsletter?

Yes. It makes sense that they did, even though those weren't listed as separately available (after all they have no actual "content").

In this latest sequence I picked up, as noted, I know the sub started with "J" and there's a "J" journal, but no "I" journal.

Plaag wrote:As for http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html I believe I was intending to say thats were my maps came from and should include they were with the initial subscription.

The ones you have listed as "1st"?
(Would be good to add a note re. missing dates/wording/scale on those, in order to clarify the printing differences).

Plaag wrote:I am still curious as to why '2nd' Section 4 has the large scale map and changed wording, then it is gone and wording reverts back to the 1st for the '3rd printing' Plus why make one map sheet a different paper?

You mean the wording from "Dungeons and Dragons" to "Fantasy/Role-Playing Games" and thence back.
Perhaps your "1st" printings are actually much later after all?
In fact I'm tending that way, too, now, having seen those yellow-highlight ones at least once before, but no white "I"...

It would actually have made sense NOT to have noted Dungeons & Dragons to begin with, as they didn't have the license at the start.

Anyhow; I have the [ed. whatever-it-is-map] (from that "J" installment run, automatically back-filled with the "Initial Package" and thus 1976 at latest) with a PO Box 773 addy and no copyright date!
Beat that if you can
I'll have to dig out the other run some time...

(Erm, could you put the section numbers on those in http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html , just in case I've gotten totally confused!)


*eeps at the lousy/rough scan*

If not, say "thanks" to Titan for endangering the whole print order for the sake of a mix-and-match with the white "I" to get what they thought was a saleable grouping.

Wow, this thread so far certainly seems really 2-sided, 7 replies & 13 views.

bclarkie wrote:Wow, this thread so far certainly seems really 2-sided, 7 replies & 13 views.

The view counter resets when the thread is split, Brian.
I can't blame anyone else for avoiding this and the resultant migrane, however!

Not much time today to check up on all this, what with the SuperBowl. (Edit: okay did more then I thought..but then I do have a couple of hours to kill)

http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0001.html (1st print: all but 4th section has the PO box address)
This also is like http://www.acaeum.com/jg/Item0004.html I-12 does not have the address.
Now concerning the switch..I looked again at the history: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/HistoryJudgesGuild.html
"They had their momentary flush of success when Bill got the call from TSR saying we are withdrawing your right to publish our copyrighted material... unless you pay a royalty. "Push us hard enough and we'll fall over, and who will more effectively make your mishmash of game playable and organized?" They negotiated with TSR for and eventually got the license."
Thus the maps having (c)TSR would have been 1st, since it was what got the call from TSR..now the eventually is an unknown time span currently, but when ever the next batch (2nd print #1 which would be after the #9 1st prints) was printed they could have pulled the (c)TSr in that time, before then being allowed and thus releasing the maps again.
Actually with that, it would explain why http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/City ... et3rd.html has 3 maps like the 2nd, and a corrected or licensed again map of section 4 on different paper.
I'm not sure what scan you posted, if thats #9 (is it a single 8x11 sheet or 17x22 sheet?) or a #4 (course the 'thank you' sheet has #4 as a single sheet as well..so perhaps there is at least a 2nd print for #4 being 17x22?)

The journal I is a good arguement (but till someone can verify a good source for their journal coming from early on, or James can ask Bob, I'll keep from updating that) Course wouldn't have time today anyway..

Side note: What about the I maps and I ref sheets..you have a take on those (esp I-7 in another place..plus the color of the papers of course)

And also ..would like to have a scan of those I maps when you get a chance (jpg worked fine for the mailers) since you've got another printing or two (if that missing I-12 is on a single sheet, then we have a confirmed I-4 and I-12, but why would they be like that)

ShaneG.

Plaag wrote:The journal I is a good arguement (but till someone can verify a good source for their journal coming from early on, or James can ask Bob, I'll keep from updating that) Course wouldn't have time today anyway..

The "I" journal in that previous (1st print Tac card) run was from installments rather than pieced together from later components to the best of my knowledge (certainly not using #14 or CSIO #12, anyhow, since neither was in that series of auctions).

Am not sure what Bob might be able to dig out of his brain that would help confirm definitively either way...

Plaag wrote:Side note: What about the I maps and I ref sheets..you have a take on those (esp I-7 in another place..plus the color of the papers of course)

Very good question. Thank you, Shane.

The I-7 in the "J" + automatic backfill run has "I-7" to the right of "Judges Guild".
And the I-7 over AC5 is millimetre perfect on the other two I-7s.
Gee... thanks for the headache
*
On that basis, the "I" upwards run I have may actually have been started marginally later than the "J" run, after all, but still from installments rather than as #12, etc.; although they would have reprinted I-7 before running out of stock and thus the two could easily have been in concurrent usage for a time (absolutely impossible to say).

Nothing either way to pinpoint whether the "I" journal (currently stated "1st") you have is sooner or later based on that, since that's still a piecemeal lot, unfortunately. (And I have severe doubts on those maps being "1st" following that I-12 comparison)
Darn, I wish the "J" run had a "I" journal!

=
Watching the Superbowl sounds like a good idea just now

Plaag wrote:http://www.judgesguild.net/guildhall/jo ... al_j.shtml (though they say they used the header for I..text is Journal J)

Sorry bit off topic but regarding ERRATA in this journal..Orange booklet I's of mine have the corrections (but am wondering if any Orang I's do not ..course the white I has the double column of percentages, etc just a thought)

Good thought to check.
I presumed "Recent reprint" to mean the Orange "I" per the initial sub.
The one I have with the "J" + auto backfill "I" is "standard", anyhow, but it's not impossible that one might crop up otherwise. (The "Cases Involving Characters of Different Alignments" at the foot of I-25 is the easiest spot to confirm).

Will see whether I can track down the other "known old" "orange I".

Plaag wrote:On topic..yeah I took it from here: http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergam ... c&index=50 and well the fact that Journal J came out in December (but see now no date for that specific comment was given) - though is there a break anywhere regarding TSR removed from products other then when JG lost the license in the 80s?

Thanks for the link. Worth citing as a source, I think
Doesn't give any hint on timespans and still nothing to say the original maps had "Dungeons and Dragons" on them.
There was no intermediate "break" in the relationship, afaik.

"We had our momentary flush of success when I got the call from TSR saying we are withdrawing your right to publish our copyrighted material" must surely be post-I ref sheets?
There's nothing to say that was contemporaneous with the previous sentence and the next para skips to late 1977.

Having finally gotten around to those, the white I-2 to I-5 maps are fun...

As you probably noted before (lazy me for not checking), white I-4 & I-5 are missing the area letter codes, as well as all of these missing the copyright text.

I'm happier with these sheets being released early (with the white "I" booklet before the regular installment run?), since there's a clearer progression and no conflicting evidence like there is with the I-12 sector of JG #4 and JG #1s currently listed as "1st" matching that stated-"3rd".


(aside: So that "I-4"-less "I-4" did just have that "label" fall off, rather than possibly being an earlier version?)