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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:14 pm 
 

Harami,

Basically, you are saying that you think the 1975 Gen Con date is wrong, and that the City State map premiered at the 1976 Gen Con (Gen Con IX)?

I've been wondering that myself.

Bob might have gotten that 1975 date mixed up with 1976, and the same with the incorporation date. It does seem an awful long time to go without product released on a regular basis.

Plus, looking over my large original maps, they are all copyright 1976...

Maybe it was Gen Con IX that Bob and Bill attended, and that was where they first sold the City State maps (product #1). Then Bob took the subs at the show (40 or 50, as he recalls), went home and immediately started writing up "I". While doing that, he and Bill come up with the Dungeon Tac Cards and publish those first (product #2). "I" (product #3) is printed sometime in October, and sent out as the first Judges Guild Installment, which consisted of:

Five dungeon levels, I-1 to I-5
Three chart sheets, I-6 to I-8
Four unknown items, I-9 to I-12 (I wonder if these were the four folded City State map sheets, though they are not marked as such?)
White "I," I-13 to I-28
Journal issue #0, I-29 and I-30
All in an envelope.

Of course, Bob didn't want to send out the white copies, so he sent it out only to those who had subscribed at Gen Con and were thus already waiting on their sub... then destroyed the remainter of the White cover "I"s when, sometime in late October to December, the Brown cover "I" was printed.

The "I" installment went out in October, and gave rise to the separate RR charts and the dungeon levels (products #5 to #8). At some point Bob also did the 17"x22" Player's Map of the City State (product #4).

Also in October, Bob called the printer to get more copies of the original 4-section map, but the printer screwed up and printed them on 17"x22" paper, giving birth to product #9, releasing in November 1976.

All this while, Bob was working furiously on expanding the City State, and by December 1976 would be ready to release the 40-page (grown to 56-page) Guide to the City State of the Invincible Overlord (product #10).

Along with that, he's developing Thunderhold, and releases that with a series of general guidelines as the 16-page Thunderhold "Installment J," along with 4 dungeon levels, an RR, and the JG Journal "J" (issue #1) in late December/early January (with a 1976 copyright).

And the rest go from there...

Bob mentioned that quickly after starting he was working 60 to 80 hour weeks running his games and writing (it was his full-time business from the get go).

Incorporation in July 1977 makes more sense, as Bill's name was still associated with things regularly until mid-1977...

I'll have to ask Bob about that 1975/76 thing next time we talk...

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:35 pm 
 

Bingo! Got it!

Judges Guild Journal "N" (#5, marked "#3"). Page 11, Bob writes down the history of Judges Guild!

And there's where the whole 75/76 thing may have come into being...

Bob got laid off when General Electric closed its factory in Decatur, Ill. in December 1975... but... "Prior to the closing, I had a long discussion with Bill Owen and Marc Summerlot in which I proposed... a venture in the War Gaming field." That went nowhere, though, for the time being...

Then in April 1976 Bob decided to try again on a "less ambitious scale" (with what Judges Guild became, one must wonder what the "ambitious scale" was!)

One of the many campaigns Bob was running included the huge City State (note that, at the time, Bob ran his D&D games in Middle Earth, and the City state was in a land "through a gate found in the Misty Mountains"). Marc didn't want in at the time (though he joined in later, obviously), but Bill decided to jump in on it...

Bob and Bill went to visit TSR in July 1976. They released the fitrst maps at Gen Con 1976. The first employee was Norma Bledsaw (Bob's wife), who "first got paid" in December 1976 (the article says December 1977, but as it is the Aug/Sept 1977 issue, that obviously is wrong... even then Bob had a little trouble with dates, it seems!)

Bob went to full-time with JG in January 1977, his sister Debi part time in April, and Bill full time on March 1977.

Another thing I've noticed is that by "M" at least (Jun/Jul 1977), the Dungeon Tac Cards are included with the "Initial Package" deal, though I do not know whether they were included with the first sub installment sent out in October 1976...

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:54 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:Bingo! Got it!

Ta da! Well done! :D :D :D

Thought it might be in one of the Journals. Apologies, didn't manage to dig them out at this end. :(

That's the explanation for the apparent "gap": hadn't expected it to have written quite so clearly, though! :)
Was Bob himself confused the matter by explicitly stating 1975 GenCon on that other board, and no-one sanity checking the statement; Judges Guild Questions • Page 3 • Judges Guild •  The Acaeum


If 1975, I could've understood why he might've waited around so long, given the industry "network" was still in its infancy then, but that's still one heck of a "big bang" for 1976.

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:07 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:Of course, Bob didn't want to send out the white copies, so he sent it out only to those who had subscribed at Gen Con and were thus already waiting on their sub...

Yeah, would've been a long time to wait from the Aug '75 GenCon! ;)

jamesmishler wrote:Four unknown items, I-9 to I-12 (I wonder if these were the four folded City State map sheets, though they are not marked as such?)

Noticed that... They might just have been leaving gaps in the numbering for other "goodies" in the initial installment and run out of time? Or lost count! :oops: *jk*
Would've been more sensible to number the pages of the "I" booklet from I-1, phps?! :P

jamesmishler wrote:Another thing I've noticed is that by "M" at least (Jun/Jul 1977), the Dungeon Tac Cards are included with the "Initial Package" deal, though I do not know whether they were included with the first sub installment sent out in October 1976...

Yes, that's a "presumed" from the text on the front of the first journal; and had noted that tallies with the Guide book booty list re. the initial subscription installment (a month or two "after the fact" but OK in this context, I think);
Judges Guild Questions • Page 2 • Judges Guild •  The Acaeum

jamesmishler wrote:then destroyed the remainter of the White cover "I"s when, sometime in late October to December, the Brown cover "I" was printed.

The "I" installment went out in October, and gave rise to the separate RR charts and the dungeon levels (products #5 to #8 ).

The "I" installment which went out in October did have the Brown Cover "I" included: Mike/<IO> mentioned he had two such postmarked "installment" copies to confirm that dating, IIRC.
- Mike; do you have actual dates in the month for those, please??

(i.e. just 'coz it says Oct. 1976, it ain't always so... but apparently was in this case!)

The Brown cover must've arrived before then which means it was pretty hectic between the end of August and the end of September (hence their comment on the Tac cards, too); and also explains the relative rarity of the white "I"s- having been issued for only a matter of weeks, rather than months.
Certainly I don't recall seeing one up for sale. :?


Another question for Bob would be how many "I" installments went out in that first batch? (... is useful to know in order to try to pin down quite how rapid "take off" actually was, since not all those journals have circulation figures stated).

Thanks, again. :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:24 pm 
 

Here's something for those with a complete set. What is the breakdown of the Dungeon Tac Cards? How many of each card?

ShaneG.

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:34 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Here's something for those with a complete set. What is the breakdown of the Dungeon Tac Cards? How many of each card?

ShaneG.

*shudders at the thought of opening the pack*. Especially after what I said to Ian!

(Regarding a previous comment, I'm sure they weren't overly rare to begin with, but am absolutely certain I know why complete packs are rare, now!).

*looks around for any other volunteers, first*

===

OK; another question on Tac cards...

Don't think anyone had definite dating evidence as to whether the yellow "PO Box" or green "address" set was produced first; regardless of relative rarity?
Mike/<IO> stated the former (any particular reason?), whilst <m03> the latter (and he also had other "first prints"; well, barring the white "I", that is!).
Value of rare Judges Guild items (sealed Tac Cards, etc). • Judges Guild •  The Acaeum

(One more for Bob?).

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:19 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Don't think anyone had definite dating evidence as to whether the yellow "PO Box" or green "address" set was produced first; regardless of relative rarity?
Mike/<IO> stated the former (any particular reason?), whilst <m03> the latter (and he also had other "first prints"; well, barring the white "I", that is!).
Value of rare Judges Guild items (sealed Tac Cards, etc). • Judges Guild •  The Acaeum

(One more for Bob?).


I don't have the dating on those, but the set with the P.O. Box is certain to pre-date that with the street address, as Judges Guild did not move to 1165 N. University Ave. until Feb/Mar 1978 (with a celebration on April 10).

The next move was in April 1980, to the 1221 N. Sunnyside Road address, which you have on the Tac Cards.

That said, there are sure to be several printings of each. Mine, for example, has both a green AND a yellow face card! And it was sealed when I opened it... yes, I hear your gasps of pain even now... :)

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:30 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:I don't have the dating on those, but the set with the P.O. Box is certain to pre-date that with the street address, as Judges Guild did not move to 1165 N. University Ave. until Feb/Mar 1978 (with a celebration on April 10).

*lol*. *thinks "cross-check against the books"*
Thank you.

Hey, ho! Brain suffering today... :(
(Wish I'd double-checked before that most recent auction, too).

jamesmishler wrote:That said, there are sure to be several printings of each. Mine, for example, has both a green AND a yellow face card! And it was sealed when I opened it... yes, I hear your gasps of pain even now... :)

Hide the green card somewhere else and pretend you didn't post that comment!

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:28 am 
 

hey david, next time some TAC cards come up for auction/sale, gimme a shout. i been after them for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages but i got outbid quite heavily on Ian's, so need to harden my resolve and go at it better next time.

Al



  


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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:18 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:hey david, next time some TAC cards come up for auction/sale, gimme a shout. i been after them for aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaages but i got outbid quite heavily on Ian's, so need to harden my resolve and go at it better next time.

Al

Heh, heh. Will do, Alan, if I resist the temptation to bid on a sealed or early set.

Re. that latest auction, aside from the price (over-enthusiasm & frustration from previous auctions, etc., which I can live since it was a long-time "want") and printing issues (as above & stupid me for not cross-checking addys), I can't get it back to looking quite the way it did in the pic on Afterglow's site because the poly was ripped open from the "wrong" side. :P

Should've been 15 minutes quicker getting a hold of <m03>, I think! ;)

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:23 am 
 

Plaag wrote:Here's something for those with a complete set. What is the breakdown of the Dungeon Tac Cards? How many of each card?

There are 5 copies of each card.
Each card is double sided.
There is also a cover sheet printed on both sides.
In total you get 140 cards and a cover sheet.


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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:51 pm 
 

Its that time again...Q&A  :lol:

Now while realizing that more shelves are needed soon, what I was able to look up has had me pondering something. Items 14 Vol1, 93 2nd printing, 96, 111, 117, 118, 119, 190 (mislabeled as 170) from 1979-1980 all do not count the front and back covers in their page counts, while others count them and usually have the first actual numbered page as 3.
Now 104, 108 both 1st prints that I checked and from 1979 fall within the majority of 93-190 are like the later with counting front cover as page one, etc.

So question is what other booklet items do not count the front cover/back covers in page numbering? And do they fall within the 79/80 time frame?
Also why does this format exist those years, is it due to where Judge's Guild was stationed at the time and what the local printers did?

(I am also trying to figure out if the booklets with color cover inserts are another printing 'block' as it were, items 300, 320, 400 later printings have gone that route so far I've seen.)

Off that topic and speaking of item #400 Toughest Dungeon In the World. It is mentioned on the cover insert that it was printed in its original manuscript form, with an apology to Ken St. Andre for not arranging it in a playable format. Was there ever a 2nd printing correcting that mistake?

Well, I think that is it for today.  :roll:  :)

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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 7:03 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Off that topic and speaking of item #400 Toughest Dungeon In the World. It is mentioned on the cover insert that it was printed in its original manuscript form, with an apology to Ken St. Andre for not arranging it in a playable format. Was there ever a 2nd printing correcting that mistake?

Well, I think that is it for today. :roll: :)

ShaneG.


Well i have a load of #400's but they are all 1st prints. the supplier i got these off a while ago....the rest of the stuff were later than 1st prints on the most part (altho there were some 1st prints too)....which made me think really that there was only 1 print of '#400 ....

Al



  


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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 10:34 pm 
 

About 1 & 1/2 years ago I picked up installments 'I' through 'X' in one auction on eBay. It corresponds with Jamesmishler's list. Also some non-sub items like the four map City-State, 56 page City State booklet, 2nd edition Ready Ref Sheets in the purple booklet, and Character Chronicle cards. The Tac cards and Character Chronicle cards have the P.O. box. The seller accurately described the set as having read once as each installment arrived, then bagged and stored. It 's in beautiful condition.
  I paid just over $300 and even though I wasn't real eBay savvy at the time(and hadn't stumbled on The Acaeum forums yet) I thought it was a pretty good deal. Please tell me it was. Since they also tossed in a MINT Character Archaic, I was more than pleased. So here are a couple of thoughts/questions.
  It appears that they put character checklists in several of the first installments. Does anyone know if this was the case?
  My installment 'U', Holiday Issue 12, has a seperate sheet that says:
Dear Guildmembers, This installment was intended to be "Dragon Crown", the official dungeon of Pacific Encounters. Unfortunately, etc. etc. So there is no "Dragon Crown" with my issue. Did they include it with follow-on reprints or was it issued as a totally seperate item?
  In another auction I picked up an unpunched "City State Warfare", item number JG-1120. Since I got it pretty cheap I figure it's not worth much but it made a cool addition to the set of journals. Haven't seen anything on it, so was wondering what anyone could tell me about it.
  I guess that's all for now.
                      Tom


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Post Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:47 pm 
 

The highest JG item that i have is 1210 Pegasus # 11. Pegasus # 12 has the same number, but is listed everwhere without an ID ie. JG 0000.

Pegasus 12 was 1210

Does anyone have any items after that, or were the remainder all un-released?

Pegasus 14 was released in August of 1999 at Gencon. Pegasus 15 was PDF only released last year. It is available thru the website.


1230 Book of Amulets and Talismans

never released

1500 Wilderlands CD-ROM UFS $46.00 18 maps of CS campaign, wilderness tables, etc.

I got the tables done, but Bob was never able to get decent scans in order to complete this project. This has been superceded by the boxed set to be released at GenCon by Necromancer Games.

1600 City State - Collector's Edition UFS $10.00

This was not a collectors edition was was not 1600. It was a reprint we released in 1999.

1700 Pegasus 14 - $3.00 32p, Summer. Storm Wrack adv.

Again released.

Al

others not released, i think, were:

1000 Lurid Lairs

never released

1070 Inns & Taverns - which i think as James just mentioned earlier - which Pegasus Mag was this in? i just checked mine and couldnt find a specific item called "Inns & Taverns", but i DID notice that in Pegasus # 11 and 12, the City State Campaign instalments, relate to Inns....so this may be what 1070 was meant to contain originally?

never released. No, this was not Inns and Taverns.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:20 am 
 

I subscribed to JG, starting with issue 3, I think.  The CSIO with the first two subscription installments came as a bonus for my first sub, and CSWE was the bonus the second year.  Installment 12 did not come with the Dragon Crown.  Y may have been Treasure Maps I, as I have a copy and don't remember how I got it.  Oddly, CSWE came as a bonus before it was included as subscription installments.  I ended up with two Magic Realm sets as well.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:08 pm 
 

Well I have aquired 5 JG catalogs (Jan 1979, May 1979, Nov 1979, Fall 80, Portly Pomp 81) and they are not item numbered. However from the 1981 Judges Guild Portly Pomp catalog it seems most everything was sold seperately, ie maps, sheets, books and it gives item numbers for each (extensions of the item number to the product involved, no new numbers or the unaccounted for ones). I shall get a list typed up probably by the weekend.

My only question for now is a result from digging through my stuff. I found a 22"x34" map of the entire Wilderlands (all 18 maps printed together with no real information on it as to map name, etc). Does anyone know what this is? and the item code if any?

Thanks,
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Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:43 am 
 

Plaag wrote:
My only question for now is a result from digging through my stuff. I found a 22"x34" map of the entire Wilderlands (all 18 maps printed together with no real information on it as to map name, etc). Does anyone know what this is? and the item code if any?





I beleive that map came with Tarantis. Don't know the code, though (if there is any).

  

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Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:09 am 
 

I concur. That map comes with Tarantis.


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Post Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:10 am 
 

yes indeedy it does...checked earlier myself - damn i had to open a tarantis  8O



  
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