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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:15 pm 
 

Killjoy wrote:would it have been possible maybe, that they were NOT in booklet form, but rather loose sheets? just a thought as i have a sheet (scanned earlier in the thread) that is I-6 and I-8....


I-6 and I-8 are both individual ready reference sheets from the original printing of the ready reference sheet pack (before they printed the second edition book with the purple cover).


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:45 pm 
 

2 cups of tea later....

#29 Six Character Checklists
What are these? They suppose to be Character Sheets? (as in sold with booklet L #25) They listed in the Modron book's booty list? (have to dig it out, so thought asking be easier  :D )

Any Treasure Vault (i.e. Booty List) list products past #940? Again I haven't checked all items past that number, but the ones I have do not list anything past 940.

Think thats it...for now!  :lol:  :wink:

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:01 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:
#29 Six Character Checklists
What are these? They suppose to be Character Sheets?

ShaneG.


Shane, i scanned a character checklist earlier on in the thread with I-6 and I-8. Go have a look, thats what they look like.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:25 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
Plaag wrote:
#29 Six Character Checklists
What are these? They suppose to be Character Sheets?

ShaneG.


Shane, i scanned a character checklist earlier on in the thread with I-6 and I-8. Go have a look, thats what they look like.

Al


Ah cool thanks!

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:23 pm 
 

Just got off the phone with Bob. Here's the skinny on the white versus brown covers...

The White Cover is the True First "I."

What happened is this...

When Bob and Bill Owen took the maps to Gen Con 1975, they had *only* the maps. The maps were rolled; there was at that time no "I" to sell.

The maps sold gangbusters. When Bill got there on Friday he started selling them out of the back of his truck, as they did not have a table. Then Bob got there on Saturday, got a table, and they started selling even more. People were wondering about the details of the places on the map.

The map was, of course, Bob's city from his campaign. Because so many people were asking about the details, Bob figured they could make more money by selling the details as well, so he came up with the idea of the subscription service. He started selling subs to the City State at the sho on Saturday.

Then, after the show, he went home and started writing it...

Bob did most of the writing, while Bill handled the printing. The first printing was the White True First, and it was when they got it back that they realized two things:

1) They had forgotten to put the copyright notice on the booklet. Bob didn't want to send them out, but he realized that he needed to get that first sub set out, so they were shipped anyway, and they continued to ship the True First White Cover until they got the Brown Cover with copyright notice later in 1976 (Bob could not recall at the time the exact month of that).

2) Between Bob completing his layout of the set and Bill getting it printed, Bill added "Initial Guidelines Booklet I" to the top of the booklet, "I" for "Initial Issue," as he felt that it would help spur sales. Bob thought it was a silly idea, but had to go with it from then on, and that's why they went on later with "J'," "K," and so forth!

A couple of other tidbits gleaned from the discussion:

1) Group One, which published "Ironhoof Highlands" and a few other items, was formed when Mark Summerlot, Mark Holmer, and bob's sister Debbie Summerlot (then recently married to Mark) left Judges Guild and formed their own company. Bob's father and mother apparently even got in on it, and helped write some of the products! The company failed after only two fantasy and 4 or 5 science-fiction products. Today Boib actually live in the house that the company used to be based in!

2) The smaller sized City State maps (the whole City State on one page) were initially a printer accident! The printer printed the CSIO on one page at a smaller scale due to miscommunications. Bob bought the smalelr prints at a discount and ended up selling and using them anyway.

3) Judges Guild was incorporated on or around July 4, 1976. About that time Bob bought out Bill, who was not active in the day-to-day operations of the company.

4) Bob said they sold about 40 to 50 subs at that first Gen Con, and continued to sell subs like gangbusters through mail order thereafter.

I meant to ask about how the other "I" sheets all fit in with everything, but we went on to other things... I'll try to remember to ask next time we speak.

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:03 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:Just got off the phone with Bob. Here's the skinny on the white versus brown covers...

*yay*. Many thanks for all that legwork: there were several possible false leads or presumptions which could've been made from Mike's white copy, without any dating evidence. :)

If you could pass on a "thank you" to Bob, would be appreciated.
Saves him having to respond to my email (& others, phps), too! :D

jamesmishler wrote:The White Cover is the True First "I."

Doesn't need a "true" prefix. White = 1st, Yellow = 2nd is fine, IMO.

Could you please do a check with him to ensure there are no other early variants of those printed copies kicking about (released versions, proofs, or otherwise).
Sounds like that's been boxed-off relatively cleanly from your excellent summary of the details, but just in case.
*
(That 1975-1976 "gap" is correct, then? And/or did /some/ of the orange "I"s go out before the first journal in October '76, although that appears to have been the big bang date (after a second Gencon touting for subs?)).

Oh, and possibly ask about later reprints, too? Is a bigger topic that, however....

jamesmishler wrote:The map was, of course, Bob's city from his campaign. Because so many people were asking about the details, Bob figured they could make more money by selling the details as well, so he came up with the idea of the subscription service.

Yup; makes perfect sense. Good move there!

jamesmishler wrote:2) The smaller sized City State maps (the whole City State on one page) were initially a printer accident! The printer printed the CSIO on one page at a smaller scale due to miscommunications. Bob bought the smalelr prints at a discount and ended up selling and using them anyway.

*g*. Cute...

Bob's more than welcome to pop over to say "hi", I'm sure.
Promise not to throw /too/ many questions his way if he does! :P

Thanks again,
David.

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:23 am 
 

great research JM!!! wow  8O

as david pointed out there, i think we have boxed off the initial JG surge in 75/76 now - cool! am really pleased about that :)

now we know what happened, it all kinda makes sense really doesnt it? and tbh, i am glad that IO has the true 1st I too....seems to fit somehow and its in prb the best home it could be (bar for mine  :D )

so barring some later reprints of the I booklet, thats a wrap really - i wonder if they WOULD have done any later reprints, because they released 14 The Ready Ref Sheets booklet, which is effectivelya compilation of all them....I-6, I-7 and I-8 is in there as i checked last night.

so are we not looking at the sequence:

White I = 1st
Orange/Brown I = 2nd
14 Ready Ref Sheets = 3rd

?

I would imagine all through this time, they were still printing both variants of the maps as they were always great sellers? or did either of them variants have limited print runs?

hope your making notes about all this Plaag :) i will be testing you on your Judges Guild 101 when all this is over :D
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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:35 am 
 

A bit more information, gleaned from "Judges Guild Initial Issue — October 1976," a two-page 8 1/2" by 11" sheet, a.k.a. "Judges Guild Journal 'I'," or "#0" with page numbers I-29 and I-30.

Booty List on the pack page states the following:

#1. 34x44" City Map (4 sections) - $4.50
2. 135 Dungeon Tac Cards - 3.50
3. Initial Guidelines Booklet 'I' (16 pages) - 2.00
4. 17x22" Player's City Map (with names blanked out, four sections) - .50
5. Six charts- (5) Men Attacking & (1) Monsters Attacking - .50
6. Six Charts- (5) Chainmail & (1) Monsters Attacking - .50
7. Six Monsters Attacking Charts - .50
8. Dungeon Levels I 1-5 - .50

Coming Soon!
Avail. NOVEMBER 1st!
9. 17x22" Judge's City Map (with all names showing) - .50

Avail. DECEMBER 1st!
10. Guide to the City State (40 page booklet jammed with all streets, more legends, more NPC's, more from neighboring counties & countries!) - 3.50 [This grew into a 56-pager before it was actually published]

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 6:44 am 
 

[Think I need to link these two threads together, since there are further relevant observations in each;
Value of rare Judges Guild items (sealed Tac Cards, etc). • Page 2 • Judges Guild •  The Acaeum ]

Couldn't find my early JG journals in passing last night.
Anything else on the formative stages (beyond comments about having fun cutting & pasting Tac cards) in those?

Thanks. :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:03 am 
 

after a VERY thorough search...and i do mean thorough :) the oldest journal i seem to have is the one i have with Frontier Forts of Kelnore, which is Journal M, in its newspaper format (which is amazing!)....

doesnt really give me any more information to add to what i have already found and what JM has just posted.

I really MUST get my hands on more of the very old stuff....

Al



  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:06 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:after a VERY thorough search...and i do mean thorough :) the oldest journal i seem to have is the one i have with Frontier Forts of Kelnore, which is Journal M, in its newspaper format (which is amazing!)....


Actually, the Subscriber Installment version of Journal M ("#4", Jun/Jul 1977) came with Modron (the small dark blue booklet), not Kelnore. Kelnore came with Journal 11 ("T") Aug/Sep 1978 (though it was late, and probably released in Oct or maybe even Nov)...

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:09 am 
 

James

yes i know...got mixed up with my post...got 2 of the modron ones and 4 of the kelnore ones...got myself mixed up cos i put them back in the wrong envelopes and then couldnt be bothered fixing the post after wards :)

:oops:

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:59 am 
 

Hmmm... couple things noticed in "Hanging Out in the City State" in Pegasus #8 (Jun/Jul 1982, more or less). A couple of listings for future products never released that I've not heard mentioned before (or maybe just missed mention of):

"Golden Sands of Death," by Ed Mortimer. This was supposed to be an adventure set in Campaign Map 7, and involve "politics, history, the forces of the Holy Cities, battle the proud nomads, the Golden Lions, temple-fortress, wilderness". Sounds like it might have essentially been "Wilderness Book 6"!

"Inns and Taverns" (from Pegasus), supposed to be a July 1982 release, never happened.

"Tulla, the City of Mages" actually spelled "Tula" on the map.

"Majestic Wilderlands: Campaign Overview" was going to be, I imagine, much like the Necromancer Games "Players Guide to the Wilderlands" ended up being.

"The House of Euklidies" with no detail at all.

I'd also seen earlier "Final Frontier," an announced boxed set with a TON of lead minis... maybe that was remade into "Imperial Infantry Squad," sans minis? Hmmm...

"Falconraid" a full-page pic depicting a pixie (?) with a falcon on a tree branch (or a man with a huuuuge falcon on a huuuuuge tree). An early concept for something Faerie Meat-like, perhaps?

Not much different "coming soon" stuff from then until #12, which listed "Supra Sentinels," a forthcoming super-hero RPG from JG.

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:11 am 
 

jamesmishler wrote:"Inns and Taverns" (from Pegasus), supposed to be a July 1982 release, never happened.

"The House of Euklidies" with no detail at all.


I knew about inns and taverns which never happened...shame really..sounded like a cool item.

The House of Euklidies was the original working title for Druids of Doom:

JG1130-Druids of Doom By Bill Pixley & Diane Mortimer
 
The House of Euklidies, a temple to Astokph the Diety of Travel and Transporter of the Dead, is asking for a group of adventurers to recover three lost magical items of the temple. Adventures must pass through the portal and enter the Druid's Keep to recover them. Contains 6 maps, 5 new monsters, and over 60 NPCs. A Judges Guild Universal Fantasy Supplement.

Working title was The House of Euklidies, the title was dropped before the release.

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:16 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:Working title was The House of Euklidies, the title was dropped before the release.

See; being an expert on the later JG stuff ain't such a bad thing after all! :P *jk*

The sooner all the ongoing research, etc., gets put online in a fixed location, the better.
Certainly would save having to make the same "discoveries" over and over again.

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:22 am 
 

think i managed to figure out the remainder of the latter instalments too:

Judges Guild Journal 15 (X) - Survival of the Fittest
Judges Guild Journal 16 (Y) - Caverns of Thracia?
Judges Guild Journal 17 (Z) - Mines of Custalcon

then there were further instalments, but looks like they ran out of alphabetical letters :D

Judges Guild Journal 18 - Tower of Ulission
Judges Guild Journal 19 - Campaign Map 6 (City State of the World Emperor)
Judges Guild Journal 20 - City - the World Emperor City Guide
Judges Guild Journal 21 - Shops - the World Emperor Shops Guide
Judges Guild Journal 22 - Fantastic Reaches Part 1
Judges Guild Journal 23 - Fantastic Reaches Part 2
Judges Guild Journal 24 - Temple Book 1
Judges Guild Journal 25 - Castle Book 2

so that should wrap up the instalments issue anyway :)



  

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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:24 am 
 

The highest JG item that i have is 1210 Pegasus # 11. Pegasus # 12 has the same number, but is listed everwhere without an ID ie. JG 0000.

Does anyone have any items after that, or were the remainder all un-released?

1230 Book of Amulets and Talismans

1500 Wilderlands CD-ROM UFS $46.00 18 maps of CS campaign, wilderness tables, etc.

1600 City State - Collector's Edition UFS $10.00

1700 Pegasus 14 - $3.00 32p, Summer. Storm Wrack adv.

Al

others not released, i think, were:

1000 Lurid Lairs

1070 Inns & Taverns - which i think as James just mentioned earlier - which Pegasus Mag was this in? i just checked mine and couldnt find a specific item called "Inns & Taverns", but i DID notice that in Pegasus # 11 and 12, the City State Campaign instalments, relate to Inns....so this may be what 1070 was meant to contain originally?

Al



  


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Post Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:28 am 
 

Meh. It's a holiday. I didn't need to sleep, did I?

Judges Guild Booklets

Booklets "I" through "M" are 8 1/2" x 14" sheets folded over and stapled to a final size of 7" x 8 1/2"

"I" Series = City State ("Initial Guidelines Booklet I")
1st = White Cover (1975), no copyright
2nd = Brown/Orange/Goldenrod Cover (1976), Copyright © 1976 by Judges Guild
I-1        Dungeon Level 1
I-2        Dungeon Level 2
I-3        Dungeon Level 3
I-4        Dungeon Level 4
I-5        Dungeon Level 5
I-6        RR: Man to Man Melee Table/Saving Throws
I-7        RR: Monsters Attacking/Monster List
I-8        RR: Men Attacking/Weapons/Saving Throws/Missle Fire [sic]/Experience
I-9       
I-10       
I-11       
I-12       
I-13        Guidelines Booklet I (16 pages, through to I-28 )
I-29        Judges Guild "Journal" "I" — Initial Issue ("#0") October 1976 (2 pages, numbered I-29 and I-30)

"J" Series = Thunderhold ("Guidelines Booklet J")
Red/Orange Cover, Copyright © 1976 by Judges Guild
J-1        Dungeon Level 1
J-2        Dungeon Level 2
J-3        Dungeon Level 3
J-4        Dungeon Level 4
J-5        RR: Surprise/Phantasmal Forces/Encounters/Time Required/Weapon Priority
J-6       
J-7        Guidelines Booklet J (16 pages, through to J-24)
JJJ        Judges Guild "Journal" "J" — ("#1") Dec/Jan 1976 [2 pages, might be numbered J-25 and J-26 (NOT CONFIRMED) or might not be "J" numbered, might instead be numbered pages 1-2]

"K" Series = City State Campaign ("Initial Guidelines Booklet K")
Light Blue Cover, Copyright © 1977 by Judges Guild
K-1        Guidelines Booklet K (12 pages, through to K-12)
Map        Judge and Player map for Campaign Map 1: City State of the Invincible Overlord
RR        RR: Construction Costs & Time Required (no numbering)
RR        RR: Wizard's Guide (no numbering)
JJK        Judges Guild "Journal" "K" — ("#2") Feb/Mar 1977 [2 pages, might be numbered K-13 and K-14 (NOT CONFIRMED) or might not be "K" numbered, might instead be numbered pages 1-2]

"L" Series = Tegel Manor ("Guidelines Booklet L")
Red/Orange Cover, Copyright © 1977 by Judges Guild
L-1        Guidelines Booklet L, "Tegel Manor" (24 pages, through to L-24)
RR        RR: Character Checklist (no numbering)
J#2        Judges Guild "Journal" "L" — ("#3"), Apr/May 1977 [4 pages, might be L-25 to L-28 (NOT CONFIRMED) or might not be "L" numbered, might instead be numbered pages 1-4]

"M" Series = Modron ("Guidelines Booklet M")
Dark Blue Cover, Copyright © 1977 by Judges Guild
M-1        Guidelines Booklet M, "Water Adventures" (16 pages, through to M-16)
J#3        The Judges Guild Journal "Installment M" — ("#4") Jun/Jul 1977, 8 pages (2 folded, no staples), numbered 1-8 included. This issue notes that there are 1,217 Judges Guild members, including 57 foreign members.

Hereafter, booklets go to standard 8 1/2" x 11" book size.

"N" = Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Steppes Campaign. Judge and Player map for each. Judges Guild Journal #5 (printed with "#3" instead), Aug/Sep 1977

"O" = Valon/Tarantis Campaign. Judge and Player map for each. Judges Guild Journal #6, Oct/Nov 1977.

"P" = Thieves of Fortress Badabaskor. 32 page book. Judges Guild Journal #7, Dec 1977/Jan 1978.

"Q" = Gen Con IX Dungeon. 32 page book with tournament dungeon used at Gen Con 1976. Judges Guild Journal #8, Feb/Mar 1978.

"R" = Village Book I. 64 page book. Judges Guild Journal #9, Apr/May 1978.

"S" = Citadel of Fire. 32-page book. Judges Guild Journal #10, Jun/July 1978.

"T" = Frontier Forts of Kelnore. 32-page book. Judges Guild Journal #11, Aug/Sep 1978 (probably "Oct/Nov" release, the issue was apparently released late).

"U" = Dragon Crown. 16-page book. Judges Guild Journal #12, Holiday 1978 Issue (probably "Dec/Jan" release).

"V" = Wilderlands of the Magic Realm Part I (maps 12 and 13). Judge and Player map for each. Judges Guild Journal #13, Feb/Mar 1979.

"W" = Wilderlands of the Magic Realm Part II (maps 11 and 14). Judge and Player map for each. Judges Guild Journal #14, Apr/May 1979.

"X" = Survival of the Fittest. Solitaire dungeon. Judges Guild Journal #15, Jun/Jul 1979.

"Y" = Village Book II or Verbosh [UNCONFIRMED]. Judges Guild Journal #16, Aug/Sep 1979.

"Z" = The Mines of Custalcon. Judges Guild Journal #17, Oct/Nov 1979.

"Installment 18" = Tower of Ulission. 32-page book. Judges Guild Journal #18, December 1979 (actually "Dec 1979/Jan 1980").

"Installment 19" = CSWE. Judge and Players maps and Region book ("Book I"). Judges Guild Journal #19, Feb/Mar 1980.

"Installment 20" = CSWE. Shops book ("Book II"). Judges Guild Journal #20, Apr/May 1980.

"Installment 21" = CSWE. City book ("Book III"). Judges Guild Journal #21, Jun/Jul 1980.

"Installment 22" = Fantastic Reaches Part I. Judges Guild Journal #22/Dungeoneer #19, Aug/Sep 1980.

"Installment 23" = Fantastic Reaches Part II. Dungeoneer Journal #23, Oct/Nov 1980.

"Installment 24" = Temple Book I. Dungeoneer Journal #24, Dec 1980/Jan 1981.

"Installment 25" = Castle Book II. Dungeoneer Journal #25, Feb/Mar 1981.

"The Black Ring" = Pegasus #1, Apr/May 1981

"Revelshire" = Pegasus #2, Jun/Jul 1981

"Isle of the Blest" = Pegasus #3, Aug/Sep 1981

"Isle of Tirnanog" = Pegasus #4, Oct/Nov 1981

"Quest for the Silver Empress" = Pegasus #5, Dec 1981/Jan 1982

"Azurerain Pirates" = Pegasus #6, Feb/Mar 1982

"4 Mini-Adventures" (Aelel's Tutoring Service, The Tower of Mabeleck, Kthenta's Dark Repose, and The Pyramid of Suberus) = Pegasus #7, Apr/May 1982

"Threat in the North" = Pegasus #8, Jun/Jul 1982

"Nirang's Keep" = Pegasus #9, Aug/Sep 1982

"Revenge of the Ant God" = Pegasus #10, Oct/Nov 1982. Late?

"Rumors at the Wayfarer's Inn = Pegasus #11, Copyright 1983.

"Ignoble Inns" = Pegasus #12, Copyright 1983.

  
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