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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:06 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Busy thread here, tonight... :) :D


Yeah David, me being a sad sap cos i aint got nuthin better to do mate :)

Did you get my PM? I will send you an I-6 / I-8 and Character Sheet in the post when i get round to it.

Right done enough research for one night :)

C'mon Plaag whats next chummer :)

off to bed - see y'all ! :)

Al



  


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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:08 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:Did you get my PM? I will send you an I-6 / I-8 and Character Sheet in the post when i get round to it.

(That was the reason for the ":D"! Thanks again, Al).

killjoy32 wrote:off to bed - see y'all ! :)

G'night! :)

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:13 pm 
 



I got one of them on the way to me :D



  

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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:40 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Busy thread here, tonight... :) :D


Yeah David, me being a sad sap cos i aint got nuthin better to do mate :)

Did you get my PM? I will send you an I-6 / I-8 and Character Sheet in the post when i get round to it.

Right done enough research for one night :)

C'mon Plaag whats next chummer :)

off to bed - see y'all ! :)

Al


Whats next huh, well hum....nothing yet I suppose, though actually isn't Pegasus 10 item number 1160?

On other news:

Buy Game card and board role LudikBazar

Site has two JG catalogs though they were added in 2004.

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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 8:36 pm 
 

(still 02cents, only)

harami2000 wrote:@ Mike <IO>; do your maps without the copyright date also have I-# numbering...?

*pulls note back onto the current page*

Also, in passing, I missed another post on the Necromancer Games forum to go with the previous quote.

Bob Bledsaw (2002) wrote:http://p096.ezboard.com/fnecromancergam ... =1&stop=20
At the 1975 Gen Con, Bill Owen and myself sat at a small table where I sold the first City State installment with all four map sections rolled up to prevent creases. I promise more particulars later.

Now that mentions an "installment" (of whatever form!)... and, presuming that timescale, also opens up those other questions about the "missing year", etc.

(Bob's post also mentions how this developed from his own campaigns (late 74/early 75?). Would be nice to have a few more of those "particulars", I think. :)
A later post on that page seems to go forward to "first products" including the Tac Cards (definitely just pre-Oct '76) then back to the CSIO map again, without noting the date specifically).

My previous comments/observations re. "presumptions" on nature of printings, etc., still stand for the time-being, Mike. ;)

=

Not being incorporated until 1976 has presumably caused a false presumption for many people (including myself) at a later date.
(And for lack of any further history details, the only other hints might've been in those journals or perhaps from that quirk of suddenly having such a large number of subscribers).

  


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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 10:16 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:AWhat's funny is I came across a Booklet I a few years ago that is solid white with black lettering. It is also missing the "Copyright 1976 Judges Guild" text on the front page, the space is just blank. Other than that their identical. It's not a Xerox copy, it's definitely printed, and it came in a sealed JG mailer envelope P.O. marked in mid 76.


Overlord,

How is the book numbered? Note how the brown booklet "I" is numbered "I-13" to "I-28," though the other booklets are numbered beginning with page 1. If your version of the booklet only has 12 pages instead of 16, and are numbered "1" to "12" or "I-1" to "I-12," that could certainly well indicate that what you have is the True First, or at the very least, a second printing of the original "I" that was sold at that Gen Con...

  


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Post Posted: Sat May 28, 2005 10:22 pm 
 

*nods*. thx. :)

(oops, I should've clipped the previous line of my post Judges Guild Questions • Page 2 • Judges Guild •  The Acaeum , as well as the one, above.
Hadn't expected to be on a new page quite so soon! ;)).

  

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:34 am 
 

Plaag wrote:Whats next huh, well hum....nothing yet I suppose, though actually isn't Pegasus 10 item number 1160?



Pegasus 10 is actually quite an interesting item:

On Judges Guild - Product List , it is listed as item 1060.

On Magazine , it is listed as item 1160.

if you look very closely at the bottom of this pic:

Image

you will see that the code 1100 is printed on the item (which is the code for Caves & Caverns, so go take your pick :)

1160 would make sense, as this is after 9 and before 11, but i have noticed discrepancies in the numbering order a few times before, so i guess it IS possible to be another number.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:46 am 
 

jamesmishler wrote:
invincibleoverlord wrote:AWhat's funny is I came across a Booklet I a few years ago that is solid white with black lettering. It is also missing the "Copyright 1976 Judges Guild" text on the front page, the space is just blank. Other than that their identical. It's not a Xerox copy, it's definitely printed, and it came in a sealed JG mailer envelope P.O. marked in mid 76.


Overlord,

How is the book numbered? Note how the brown booklet "I" is numbered "I-13" to "I-28," though the other booklets are numbered beginning with page 1. If your version of the booklet only has 12 pages instead of 16, and are numbered "1" to "12" or "I-1" to "I-12," that could certainly well indicate that what you have is the True First, or at the very least, a second printing of the original "I" that was sold at that Gen Con...


would it have been possible maybe, that they were NOT in booklet form, but rather loose sheets? just a thought as i have a sheet (scanned earlier in the thread) that is I-6 and I-8....

Al



  


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:23 am 
 

Wow this thread went a little crazy. Just goes to show there's a lot of interest in the old JG stuff. Particularly the early material, it's appeal IMO comes from the fact of just how raw it looks. Let's be honest, it's maybe only a step above what any of us could produce ourselves…at least visually. Not a lot of art for one thing, and the stark maps and text filled pages look all business.

Over the years we've managed to collect all of the early stuff… many in multiples by default. It wasn't easy; it is a hodge-podge especially concerning the first Booty List with items #1 -- 17 (This is the earliest product list I've seen David and seems to be about a year into the JG doing business.). Confusion comes from the fact that there were subscription items, and non-subscription items. Some of those items Booklets, maps, and such are in both categories. For instance non-subscription item #12 City State Play Aid is really subscription items # 1,3,4,8,15,16,17 and non-subscription item # 10 with a cover sheet. I don't know what makes up the #11 Special Starter Package, but at $20 twice the price of #9 City State Play Aid…I'd guess you would get twice as much stuff. I presume it could also be said of the #13 Deluxe Fantasy Package at $19.95? Anyone have these?

The First Ready Ref Sheets are hard to come by. We still don't have a cover sheet, but we have all of the rest including the one's missing on the JG Codex that needs scans. Many of these are in multiples, so if someone wants to trade for a cover sheet, or for that matter would sell one. Give me a PM.

The Tac Cards where available for a long time. That's why the first prints have the P.O. box address like these early items, and then latter copies have the street address like the items produced later. Take a look at an older product list it will read #2 Tac Cards, and then jump to items numbered 50+. So why are they so rare? but they are?

Concerning the White Guideline Booklet I. It is identical to the two orangey-brown Booklets we have in everyway. The only difference is it is absent of the "Copyright 1976 by Judges Guild". It is numbered pages I-13 to I-28 like the other two Booklets.

The four maps that make up the City State that came with the White Booklet are identical to the others. Again, only it is void of the copyright.

One quick thought, the article we're reading about the mystery 76 GenCon maps is not as historical as we'd take it to I think, and they may just not be mentioning the booklet for whatever reason. The only reason I say this is you need the booklet for the map. The two go hand in hand.

Thoughts…


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:25 am 
 

Killjoy wrote:

would it have been possible maybe, that they were NOT in booklet form, but rather loose sheets? just a thought as i have a sheet (scanned earlier in the thread) that is I-6 and I-8....


Yes this is correct.


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:39 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Concerning the White Guideline Booklet I. It is identical to the two orangey-brown Booklets we have in everyway. The only difference is it is absent of the "Copyright 1976 by Judges Guild". It is numbered pages I-13 to I-28 like the other two Booklets.

Thoughts…


Cracking part of the code:
JG8 Dungeon Level Maps I 1-5
JG5-7 Sheet I-6 Man to man melee charts, Sheet I-7 Monsters attacking charts, I-8 Men Attacking

Now what is labeled I 9, I 10, I 11, and I 12?

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 10:50 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
Plaag wrote:Whats next huh, well hum....nothing yet I suppose, though actually isn't Pegasus 10 item number 1160?



Pegasus 10 is actually quite an interesting item:

On Judges Guild - Product List , it is listed as item 1060.

On Magazine , it is listed as item 1160.

if you look very closely at the bottom of this pic:

[ Image ]

you will see that the code 1100 is printed on the item (which is the code for Caves & Caverns, so go take your pick :)

1160 would make sense, as this is after 9 and before 11, but i have noticed discrepancies in the numbering order a few times before, so i guess it IS possible to be another number.

Al


Item Code: 1160 (labeled 1100)
Title: Pegasus 10

Shall make it as above for the time being since yeah it would make sense, but then things like Dungeeoner 9, 10 are before 8, 9  :roll:

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:47 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:I don't know what makes up the #11 Special Starter Package, but at $20 twice the price of #9 City State Play Aid…I'd guess you would get twice as much stuff. I presume it could also be said of the #13 Deluxe Fantasy Package at $19.95? Anyone have these?

Thoughts…


#11: This package included the Dungeons & Dragons box set (3 Volumes) and Guildmember subscription. (a savings of $2 at the time  :) )
#13: Contains JG12, Dungeons & Dragons box set (3 Volumes) plus multi sided dice set (20-sided, 12-sided, 8-sided, 6-sided, 4-sided). (savings of $1.55 at the time)

Okay, who can build a time machine!   :lol:  :D

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:15 pm 
 

Killjoy wrote:would it have been possible maybe, that they were NOT in booklet form, but rather loose sheets? just a thought as i have a sheet (scanned earlier in the thread) that is I-6 and I-8....


I-6 and I-8 are both individual ready reference sheets from the original printing of the ready reference sheet pack (before they printed the second edition book with the purple cover).


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:45 pm 
 

2 cups of tea later....

#29 Six Character Checklists
What are these? They suppose to be Character Sheets? (as in sold with booklet L #25) They listed in the Modron book's booty list? (have to dig it out, so thought asking be easier  :D )

Any Treasure Vault (i.e. Booty List) list products past #940? Again I haven't checked all items past that number, but the ones I have do not list anything past 940.

Think thats it...for now!  :lol:  :wink:

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:01 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:
#29 Six Character Checklists
What are these? They suppose to be Character Sheets?

ShaneG.


Shane, i scanned a character checklist earlier on in the thread with I-6 and I-8. Go have a look, thats what they look like.

Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:25 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
Plaag wrote:
#29 Six Character Checklists
What are these? They suppose to be Character Sheets?

ShaneG.


Shane, i scanned a character checklist earlier on in the thread with I-6 and I-8. Go have a look, thats what they look like.

Al


Ah cool thanks!

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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:23 pm 
 

Just got off the phone with Bob. Here's the skinny on the white versus brown covers...

The White Cover is the True First "I."

What happened is this...

When Bob and Bill Owen took the maps to Gen Con 1975, they had *only* the maps. The maps were rolled; there was at that time no "I" to sell.

The maps sold gangbusters. When Bill got there on Friday he started selling them out of the back of his truck, as they did not have a table. Then Bob got there on Saturday, got a table, and they started selling even more. People were wondering about the details of the places on the map.

The map was, of course, Bob's city from his campaign. Because so many people were asking about the details, Bob figured they could make more money by selling the details as well, so he came up with the idea of the subscription service. He started selling subs to the City State at the sho on Saturday.

Then, after the show, he went home and started writing it...

Bob did most of the writing, while Bill handled the printing. The first printing was the White True First, and it was when they got it back that they realized two things:

1) They had forgotten to put the copyright notice on the booklet. Bob didn't want to send them out, but he realized that he needed to get that first sub set out, so they were shipped anyway, and they continued to ship the True First White Cover until they got the Brown Cover with copyright notice later in 1976 (Bob could not recall at the time the exact month of that).

2) Between Bob completing his layout of the set and Bill getting it printed, Bill added "Initial Guidelines Booklet I" to the top of the booklet, "I" for "Initial Issue," as he felt that it would help spur sales. Bob thought it was a silly idea, but had to go with it from then on, and that's why they went on later with "J'," "K," and so forth!

A couple of other tidbits gleaned from the discussion:

1) Group One, which published "Ironhoof Highlands" and a few other items, was formed when Mark Summerlot, Mark Holmer, and bob's sister Debbie Summerlot (then recently married to Mark) left Judges Guild and formed their own company. Bob's father and mother apparently even got in on it, and helped write some of the products! The company failed after only two fantasy and 4 or 5 science-fiction products. Today Boib actually live in the house that the company used to be based in!

2) The smaller sized City State maps (the whole City State on one page) were initially a printer accident! The printer printed the CSIO on one page at a smaller scale due to miscommunications. Bob bought the smalelr prints at a discount and ended up selling and using them anyway.

3) Judges Guild was incorporated on or around July 4, 1976. About that time Bob bought out Bill, who was not active in the day-to-day operations of the company.

4) Bob said they sold about 40 to 50 subs at that first Gen Con, and continued to sell subs like gangbusters through mail order thereafter.

I meant to ask about how the other "I" sheets all fit in with everything, but we went on to other things... I'll try to remember to ask next time we speak.

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:03 pm 
 

jamesmishler wrote:Just got off the phone with Bob. Here's the skinny on the white versus brown covers...

*yay*. Many thanks for all that legwork: there were several possible false leads or presumptions which could've been made from Mike's white copy, without any dating evidence. :)

If you could pass on a "thank you" to Bob, would be appreciated.
Saves him having to respond to my email (& others, phps), too! :D

jamesmishler wrote:The White Cover is the True First "I."

Doesn't need a "true" prefix. White = 1st, Yellow = 2nd is fine, IMO.

Could you please do a check with him to ensure there are no other early variants of those printed copies kicking about (released versions, proofs, or otherwise).
Sounds like that's been boxed-off relatively cleanly from your excellent summary of the details, but just in case.
*
(That 1975-1976 "gap" is correct, then? And/or did /some/ of the orange "I"s go out before the first journal in October '76, although that appears to have been the big bang date (after a second Gencon touting for subs?)).

Oh, and possibly ask about later reprints, too? Is a bigger topic that, however....

jamesmishler wrote:The map was, of course, Bob's city from his campaign. Because so many people were asking about the details, Bob figured they could make more money by selling the details as well, so he came up with the idea of the subscription service.

Yup; makes perfect sense. Good move there!

jamesmishler wrote:2) The smaller sized City State maps (the whole City State on one page) were initially a printer accident! The printer printed the CSIO on one page at a smaller scale due to miscommunications. Bob bought the smalelr prints at a discount and ended up selling and using them anyway.

*g*. Cute...

Bob's more than welcome to pop over to say "hi", I'm sure.
Promise not to throw /too/ many questions his way if he does! :P

Thanks again,
David.

  
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