killjoy32 wrote:the loose I-6 and I-8's i have, i bought off terry like that many moons back. if he was selling them like that, they were loose, which would tell me that they were not as part of a pack, but individual, which would still point back to the releases of #5 #6 and #7



terry literally took these from the boxes that they were stored in, when he bought them from that massive stock. if they were stored that way, then they must have been sold that way too?

Just a brief thought on that, Al.



Terry had/has much JG overstock including spare items (booklets, maps, etc.) that weren't packaged up into installments, etc.

There's no guarantee that anything originating from him was "as originally issued" or any particular combination of prints; just one great big remaindered stock pile

Those spare I6-7-8s you picked up might've been destined to have been sold loose or as part of a #14 pack. It's impossible to tell which, now.



Can only get intriguing "hints" on a few of those items he has, such as his blue Modron booklets that are consistently showing the minor front page printing flaw not present on other booklets known to have been distributed with the original installment.

harami2000 wrote:
Terry had/has much JG overstock including spare items (booklets, maps, etc.) that weren't packaged up into installments, etc.

There's no guarantee that anything originating from him was "as originally issued" or any particular combination of prints; just one great big remaindered stock pile

Those spare I6-7-8s you picked up might've been destined to have been sold loose or as part of a #14 pack. It's impossible to tell which, now.



Can only get intriguing "hints" on a few of those items he has, such as his blue Modron booklets that are consistently showing the minor front page printing flaw not present on other booklets known to have been distributed with the original installment.

yeah i agree. a lot of what he had was scattered across many prints and agreed, there is no way of knowing now, what belonged to which, especially with regards to loose items. something that is lost in time i expect?



with regards to modron, again, hints is about all we can get with regards to what was what now, as nothing was logged back then for historical sake.



Al

killjoy32 wrote:thing is with regards to that, i have bought many tegels and have never seen one with a wizards guide

Wizard's Guide came with K. We were talking 'bout the Character Checklist (interestingly mentioned- pre-emptively? - in journal K as being part of the forthcoming JG #14 package).



Is becoming a "feature" that anyone with multiple installments doesn't put the sheets back in their original installment. Causing some fun that where observations don't appear to tally with the Journal or Booty list... or a new "variety" is discovered, as with that variant Character Checklist

Plaag wrote:Yeah after reading the Journal snipets..the 1st printing (ie Installment L) should have the Character Checklist as well as Wizard's Guide actually..(I think I'll call this the DRJ effect..Didn't Read Journals). This is Priotity One for the next update in a week.

...

Oh well, something to ponder and research..(Get your Judges Guild stuff organized you two )

Well, I've "found" J, K & L again, anyhow; buried under the Ozzie Gs & Ds for some reason... who said "organisation"?

thx

killjoy32 wrote:so the character checklists that are with then. if i scan them, what is it that i am looking for?

Shouldn't need to scan any more (unless there are further variants )

Just whether the fonts used (at the top of the sheet, for example) and copyright message matches the scan below, or your other copy (per the scan you sub'd to Shane). And what print of Tegel each was "found" with.

I think that should suffice...

killjoy32 wrote:right i have just had a quick look and have found some tegels, but its not all that i have.

*checks to see whether you got into trouble for researching after 11pm*

Thanks, Al

killjoy32 wrote:1. booklet L with no ende - tegel manor tan sheet with $4.50 in top left, no booty list on back, AHA, characters checklist present, orange in colour, but with a thicker font than the pic scanned above. its in the same font as the characters checklist at the back of the 4th print book, and states, copyright 1977. all maps present.



(again this is how i have bought them, i havent swapped things around or anything. they were stored as i purchased them)

[GOOD!]



2. booklet L with ende - tegel manor tan cover sheet, $4.50 in top left, treasure vault on the back. highest # is 160 Journal 19, new releases coming soon, 140 castle book II, 150 CSWE. judges guild, 1165 N university ave, decatur, Il, 62526 - characters checklist is the same as the one i mentioned above - not like the pictured one of yours. only one large map.



3. now. i have a tegal shrinkwrapped and its unbroken. i really, REALLY dont want to break the shrink.aaaaaaaaaaaha!!!! the characters checklist is the SAME as your one! WOOHOOO! - is there nothing on the back? moving the shrink around i can only see the top, but the font is most definately the same! $4.50 price sticker on the front of the shrink - the back of the cover sheet doesnt look like its got a booty list / treasure vault on it.

A. Thicker font at top (other minor font differences), "Copyright 1977"

Characters Checklist 1st

- found with

Orange Tegel 1., above.

Red Tegel 2., above. (what's that about #160, Al? Later mix-and-match copy??)

- found in

4th print Tegel book (neat observation!



B. Thinner font at top, "Copyrighted by Judges Guild 1977" (format as used in previous installments from "I" onwards )

Page Not Found

- found with

Orange Tegel 3., above.

- may have been found with

Red Tegel?? (the ref. sheet copy I have but someone else won the Tegel: thought it was a red copy. That owner with those 1st print Tac cards, yellow I6-8s, etc.)

- found in

Purple JG #14 (just to confuse matters!)

killjoy32 wrote:that one prb helps i hope? pleeeeeeeeeeeease dont ask me to open it, cos i really dont wanna cos its in super minty mint. the booklet L is the lighter colour than the darker ende booklet.

killjoy32 wrote:so does that help fit your characters checklist in?

hmm... Not really.... Stuck at 65-35 phps. Still contradictory evidence, IMO, albeit some is secondary. What d'ya think, Shane?



Would be useful to check those other three or four, if poss.

killjoy32 wrote:that one had a tan cover sheet with it. on the back of the cover sheet it had a treasure vault (you know, the product list thingy) and the highest numbers on it were D&D 119 tower of ulission, AD&D 124 escape from astigars lair, but highest # was 160 journal 19. thats what i meant by the #160 comment. was meant to help shane mebbe fit it in wherever he fits these things in

yeah, what's a red Tegel doing in there?

(Hence my mix-and-match comment, but prb from the p.o.v. of how JG released the stuff, originally).

killjoy32 wrote:still think the guy off here, who has all the instalments with the envelopes is the best option - surely they are all gonna be 1st prints and so that would be the logical starting point for research.

*nods*

And was the theory I was working to, also, given that other seller with all the original installments, 1st Tac cards w/o product card, etc. Doesn't seem to have helped in this case, however.



G'night ^^

Well my 4 Monster Compendiums have almost the same color paper (very very slight difference) as the Character Checklist..and while the CL is all chapital letters, and only the M and C are capital of the Monster Compendium (they have the same C regarding font).

I do not remember where I got my character checklist from, but my Tegel is the one without the Ende (I'd very much like one of those along with that TV coversheet)

Hell I'd even buy the shrink one and bite the bullet to open it (BUT AL DO NOT OPEN THAT FOR THE SAKE OF KNOWLEDGE)..

I want to say since #14 was priced in Journal K, and the CC was released with L, and the MC was released with M..that the one in the #14 was the 1st, and the CC released after is 2nd (plus it does match the one in the #14 Vol Is).



Thats all from me tonight..



ShaneG.

Seeing if that works (thanks for that link)



Anyhow..from that above, CC would have been printed before Installment L so that it could be included in #14, but then also released with L.

I also thought the Al's CC was from #14 (shall have to read up in messages to see if wrong)..also Tom's installment L may have the 1st (though have asked a follow up question to see..since I have a mistake on that page..plus asked ihim what Tegel he also has)



Shall wait on some answers but as to a time line..

I6/7/8 released in 76



#14 first priced in K (but a thought occured to me...would they have released #14 after all of the RR sheets were released..so #14 came after Installment L, but before M since they did not include Monster Compendium sheets)



RR Wizards Guide first released with Installment L only those who got it mailed to them would have this..those bought later, would not, same with those who bought Installment K later on would now have it. (April/May 77)



k..ending this message while I go check on more things..



ShaneG.

Some tid bits after perusing Journals I/J/K:

From I (Oct 1976)

"As astutely pointed out by the halycon heroes of the north (TSR) out artist-scribe took considerable artistic license in depicting the weapons on our Tac Cards. Rest assured history scholars, a new deck (with many unusual weapons) is being designed accurately... else our pen pusher will run the expectorate gauntlet with his drafting table tied to his ears!"



Items 1-8 are in the subscription with Journal I (this was not called an installment, but it has helped in that product lists sort of make sense how they were early on.) Also items 1-8 are only sold seperately (at the time mind you) to Guildmembers.



From J (Dec 1976-Jan 1977)

Labeled the 1st Installment

Thunderhold done

#10 ready to mail by the end of the month (copyright 1976 but people must have only got these in Jan 77 due to as they have stated slow mail bulk rate.)

item 9 and 10 must be purchased seperately..not part of the subscription (i.e. items 1-8/journal I plus 5 bi-monthly installments)

items 11-13 are to be sold in stores (so actually these are 1977 releases)

RR charts package (item 14) and Tac cards due to copyright agreement will be available seperately (so to be sold in stores in 1977..with Tac card info from I..thsis the new deck/2nd print I presume)



"Tac Cards will be available for $3.95 which is up from old price, but since we will now start paying postage, it went down 5¢ net! The cards may cost a mint to print (&collate- Mrs. Makistakator has sorted almost 100,000 cards so far!) and are priced a bit over a deck of playing cards- but the guys that play my game love'em!" (741 sets at least..but this include 1st prints or only the to be sold 2nd sets the paragraph is talking about.)



"Ready Ref Package several copies of each of our RR sheets printed so far plus the up coming ones on 'Alignments & Record Keeping', 'Building Costs' and the Wizards' Guide. This one's price will be announced later." (So Wizards guide was determined and/or layout at the time of this, but the other two were working titles I presume - and of course never materialized since ARK became Character Checklist, and BC became Construction costs and placed at the back of Wizards Guide - so WG was not printed by this time)



From K (Feb/Mar 1977)

Judges Guild moved to new place/address

RR package contains all sheets published so far plus CC to be included in next installment (Phantasmal Forces/Encounters sheet not released with other installments and I can only see its predassesor so far in the earliest Judges Guild Shield item 28..so this help to determine that #14 was not released till Installment L April/May 1977)



judgesguild.net Again so that Journal I and J can be looked over, and yeah most I pointed out maybe already known but I've brought it forward to maybe get a better understanding for this time table I've worked on:

#1 released Gen Con IX August 1976

#2-8 (and Journal I) October 1976

#9 November 1976

#15-17 Decemebr 1976

#10-13 Jan/Feb 1977

#18-20 Feb/Mar 1977 (Wizards Guide like stated was printed, but did not see Guildmembers hands till Installment L)



#14 1977, but is it April/May after all RR sheets released thru L and after Judges Shield, but before Installment M June/July 1977 or soem other date?



ShaneG.