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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:08 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:
Must have been disappointed when Al didn't turn up to buy up the rest!

*listens for typing in the background*




:)



thing is, how would i have gotten it home? would have had to go to the post office and m-bag it :D



  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:11 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:

IIRC was later reduced to $9.99 for #0, Al...

Gone now, anyhow.



[edit] Hmm... missed it first time. Still there; http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5276369803




yeah i know - it didnt go un-noticed. i just simply will not buy it from them. how can they justify $13 shipping? it should be at least half that. that is just ludicrous for 1 feckin sheet of paper  :evil:



nah i would rather wait and pick it up from someone more sensible about these things. i am in no rush.



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:24 am 
 

shane / david



dunno what it is, but something is nagging away at me with regards to these I-6 & I-8's we were discussing last night.



does anyone have a #14 with all yellow sheets? or one with I-6 (or is it I-8 - i am in work so i cant check to hand) without the minus AC values in the pack?



my thoughts are this. i do think that the #14 i have is still the 1st print. it feels right with the timing and all.



the original releases of #5 #6 and #7. this could have been where the yellow sheets originated from. are there any yellow sheets with the minus AC values?



the loose I-6 and I-8's i have, i bought off terry like that many moons back. if he was selling them like that, they were loose, which would tell me that they were not as part of a pack, but individual, which would still point back to the releases of #5 #6 and #7



terry literally took these from the boxes that they were stored in, when he bought them from that massive stock. if they were stored that way, then they must have been sold that way too?



it might have been that they did an original run of prints without the AC values and sent them out to subscribers. there were loads of complaints and then they re-printed a load on yellow or tan cardstock and released them in the newer format? sounds possible to me....



anyway. work beckons...yeah its sunday....man this sucks.



mind you at least i dont waste four hours digging for books and notes :)



Al



  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:29 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:shane / david



dunno what it is, but something is nagging away at me with regards to these I-6 & I-8's we were discussing last night.



does anyone have a #14 with all yellow sheets? or one with I-6 (or is it I-8 - i am in work so i cant check to hand) without the minus AC values in the pack?



my thoughts are this. i do think that the #14 i have is still the 1st print. it feels right with the timing and all.



the original releases of #5 #6 and #7. this could have been where the yellow sheets originated from. are there any yellow sheets with the minus AC values?



the loose I-6 and I-8's i have, i bought off terry like that many moons back. if he was selling them like that, they were loose, which would tell me that they were not as part of a pack, but individual, which would still point back to the releases of #5 #6 and #7



terry literally took these from the boxes that they were stored in, when he bought them from that massive stock. if they were stored that way, then they must have been sold that way too?



it might have been that they did an original run of prints without the AC values and sent them out to subscribers. there were loads of complaints and then they re-printed a load on yellow or tan cardstock and released them in the newer format? sounds possible to me....



anyway. work beckons...yeah its sunday....man this sucks.



mind you at least i dont waste four hours digging for books and notes :)



Al




Okay first Al..you have a 1st #14 (as stated in journal snips) the whole package was released late (so 1977)

Checking #14s Vol 1 booklets..interesting things there..I-8 in all three of those printings has the negative ACs (since I-8 is really the only change in printings besides color for the whole I-6/8 discussion). Though our Checklist (David's and mine) matches what is in those Vol I books too.



As for Tac cards I have 1st 1976 (complete as in all different cards, but numbers are off in some places), 2nd 1977 (only the three cards shown..came in a lot together so I am skeptical of the one card being mixed with the other two), and 70+ cards from another lot ( Men Attacking chart though is like others I have)..

Those with a 3rd have a Men attacking chart with negative ACs?



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:54 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Checking #14s Vol 1 booklets..interesting things there..I-8 in all three of those printings has the negative ACs (since I-8 is really the only change in printings besides color for the whole I-6/8 discussion).


Good. As expected on that.



Plaag wrote:Though our Checklist (David's and mine) matches what is in those Vol I books too.


Smart thinking, Shane.

Yeah, if it's a match for the booklet form, chances are the format is later: would happily go with that for lack of any better evidence.



So, when was that change (font/copyright message) made? Must've been pretty early since the previous owner of my copy had a red Tegel, IIRC (that same owner of your 1st print Tac Cards, yellow I6-8, etc., again).



I'd previously checked Booklet L and Character Checklist which states a Character Checklist should be present with the red Tegel, but Tegel Manor Playing Aid says it wasn't. What's up there?



*needs to dig out red Tegel from JonB =cough=*



Plaag wrote:Those with a 3rd have a Men attacking chart with negative ACs?


*checks*

Nope; they didn't bother to "update" that card to include -ve ACs.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:18 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:the loose I-6 and I-8's i have, i bought off terry like that many moons back. if he was selling them like that, they were loose, which would tell me that they were not as part of a pack, but individual, which would still point back to the releases of #5 #6 and #7



terry literally took these from the boxes that they were stored in, when he bought them from that massive stock. if they were stored that way, then they must have been sold that way too?


Just a brief thought on that, Al.



Terry had/has much JG overstock including spare items (booklets, maps, etc.) that weren't packaged up into installments, etc.

There's no guarantee that anything originating from him was "as originally issued" or any particular combination of prints; just one great big remaindered stock pile :(

Those spare I6-7-8s you picked up might've been destined to have been sold loose or as part of a #14 pack. It's impossible to tell which, now.



Can only get intriguing "hints" on a few of those items he has, such as his blue Modron booklets that are consistently showing the minor front page printing flaw not present on other booklets known to have been distributed with the original installment.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:20 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:So, when was that change (font/copyright message) made? Must've been pretty early since the previous owner of my copy had a red Tegel, IIRC (that same owner of your 1st print Tac Cards, yellow I6-8, etc., again).



I'd previously checked Booklet L and Character Checklist which states a Character Checklist should be present with the red Tegel, but Tegel Manor Playing Aid says it wasn't. What's up there?




Yeah after reading the Journal snipets..the 1st printing (ie Installment L) should have the Character Checklist as well as Wizard's Guide actually..(I think I'll call this the DRJ effect..Didn't Read Journals). This is Priotity One for the next update in a week.



Hum..anyone ask for photo of character sheet: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8735470210



Hum..they have to be close (well copyright 77 it says), but in terms of being released the 1977 journals all have #29 starting from L that is.



Oh well, something to ponder and research..(Get your Judges Guild stuff organized you two  :D )



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:29 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
Terry had/has much JG overstock including spare items (booklets, maps, etc.) that weren't packaged up into installments, etc.

There's no guarantee that anything originating from him was "as originally issued" or any particular combination of prints; just one great big remaindered stock pile :(

Those spare I6-7-8s you picked up might've been destined to have been sold loose or as part of a #14 pack. It's impossible to tell which, now.



Can only get intriguing "hints" on a few of those items he has, such as his blue Modron booklets that are consistently showing the minor front page printing flaw not present on other booklets known to have been distributed with the original installment.




yeah i agree. a lot of what he had was scattered across many prints and agreed, there is no way of knowing now, what belonged to which, especially with regards to loose items. something that is lost in time i expect?



with regards to modron, again, hints is about all we can get with regards to what was what now, as nothing was logged back then for historical sake.



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:37 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:

I'd previously checked Booklet L and Character Checklist which states a Character Checklist should be present with the red Tegel, but Tegel Manor Playing Aid says it wasn't. What's up there?



Yeah after reading the Journal snipets..the 1st printing (ie Installment L) should have the Character Checklist as well as Wizard's Guide actually..(I think I'll call this the DRJ effect..Didn't Read Journals). This is Priotity One for the next update in a week.




thing is with regards to that, i have bought many tegels and have never seen one with a wizards guide. has anyone ever bought one complete with that, or actually has the original instalment in its envelope that can tell us its contents? wasnt there someone on here who had loads of the original instalments that he purchased in one go or something? surely lots of scans n stuff off him should do the trick? sorry but i cant remember his name.



Plaag wrote:Hum..anyone ask for photo of character sheet: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 8735470210



Hum..they have to be close (well copyright 77 it says), but in terms of being released the 1977 journals all have #29 starting from L that is.




i will be bashing a bid in on that at the end, as well as the CSIO, so if i get it, i will let you know whats what.



Plaag wrote:

Oh well, something to ponder and research..(Get your Judges Guild stuff organized you two :D )




organised? pfft. chance would be a fine thing. no time really - too much to do - no time to sort out :)

mand was going mad last night cos i was up down up down in out in out - she was like "which feckin book are you getting now??!!" :D



i was like "research" she was like "get a feckin life you geek" :D



  


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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:16 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:thing is with regards to that, i have bought many tegels and have never seen one with a wizards guide


Wizard's Guide came with K. We were talking 'bout the Character Checklist (interestingly mentioned- pre-emptively? - in journal K as being part of the forthcoming JG #14 package).



Is becoming a "feature" that anyone with multiple installments doesn't put the sheets back in their original installment. Causing some fun that where observations don't appear to tally with the Journal or Booty list... or a new "variety" is discovered, as with that variant Character Checklist :?



Plaag wrote:Yeah after reading the Journal snipets..the 1st printing (ie Installment L) should have the Character Checklist as well as Wizard's Guide actually..(I think I'll call this the DRJ effect..Didn't Read Journals). This is Priotity One for the next update in a week.

...

Oh well, something to ponder and research..(Get your Judges Guild stuff organized you two :D )


Well, I've "found" J, K & L again, anyhow; buried under the Ozzie Gs & Ds for some reason... who said "organisation"? ;)

  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:24 pm 
 

well when i get a min tomorrow, i will dig out all the tegels i have, as well as all their contents and then we can tackle this one again.



so the character checklists that are with then. if i scan them, what is it that i am looking for?



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:35 pm 
 

thx :)

killjoy32 wrote:so the character checklists that are with then. if i scan them, what is it that i am looking for?


Shouldn't need to scan any more (unless there are further variants ;))

Just whether the fonts used (at the top of the sheet, for example) and copyright message matches the scan below, or your other copy (per the scan you sub'd to Shane). And what print of Tegel each was "found" with.

I think that should suffice...



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:04 pm 
 

right i have just had a quick look and have found some tegels, but its not all that i have. i cant remember where i've stored them  :?  they are in one of my ummm boxes and there is like 50+ of judges guild stuff  :cry:  i will just have to look for them sometime.



the ones i have put my hands on are as follows:



booklet L with ende - 3 hole punched with no maps - no feckin use *slings*



booklet L with no ende - with all the maps and no character checklist - this was how i bought it. which was why i wondered if these extra lists etc, were always with each one? guess they must have been .... again no feckin use *slings*



booklet L with no ende - tegel manor tan sheet with $4.50 in top left, no booty list on back, AHA, characters checklist present, orange in colour, but with a thicker font than the pic scanned above. its in the same font as the characters checklist at the back of the 4th print book, and states, copyright 1977. all maps present.



now heres where it gets interesting:



(again this is how i have bought them, i havent swapped things around or anything. they were stored as i purchased them)



booklet L with ende - tegel manor tan cover sheet, $4.50 in top left, treasure vault on the back. highest # is 160 Journal 19, new releases coming soon, 140 castle book II, 150 CSWE. judges guild, 1165 N university ave, decatur, Il, 62526 - characters checklist is the same as the one i mentioned above - not like the pictured one of yours. only one large map.



now. i have a tegal shrinkwrapped and its unbroken. i really, REALLY dont want to break the shrink.aaaaaaaaaaaha!!!! the characters checklist is the SAME as your one! WOOHOOO! - is there nothing on the back? moving the shrink around i can only see the top, but the font is most definately the same! $4.50 price sticker on the front of the shrink - the back of the cover sheet doesnt look like its got a booty list / treasure vault on it.



that one prb helps i hope? pleeeeeeeeeeeease dont ask me to open it, cos i really dont wanna :) cos its in super minty mint. the booklet L is the lighter colour than the darker ende booklet.



so does that help fit your characters checklist in?



anyway, considering i said i was gonna do this tomorrow, there you go, you got it tonight :)



i have 3 maybe 4 others somewhere but i really dont know where they are. i have two 4th prints to hand, but they no real use nor ornament at this point.



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:24 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:right i have just had a quick look and have found some tegels, but its not all that i have.


*checks to see whether you got into trouble for researching after 11pm*

Thanks, Al :)



killjoy32 wrote:1. booklet L with no ende - tegel manor tan sheet with $4.50 in top left, no booty list on back, AHA, characters checklist present, orange in colour, but with a thicker font than the pic scanned above. its in the same font as the characters checklist at the back of the 4th print book, and states, copyright 1977. all maps present.



(again this is how i have bought them, i havent swapped things around or anything. they were stored as i purchased them)

[GOOD!]



2. booklet L with ende - tegel manor tan cover sheet, $4.50 in top left, treasure vault on the back. highest # is 160 Journal 19, new releases coming soon, 140 castle book II, 150 CSWE. judges guild, 1165 N university ave, decatur, Il, 62526 - characters checklist is the same as the one i mentioned above - not like the pictured one of yours. only one large map.



3. now. i have a tegal shrinkwrapped and its unbroken. i really, REALLY dont want to break the shrink.aaaaaaaaaaaha!!!! the characters checklist is the SAME as your one! WOOHOOO! - is there nothing on the back? moving the shrink around i can only see the top, but the font is most definately the same! $4.50 price sticker on the front of the shrink - the back of the cover sheet doesnt look like its got a booty list / treasure vault on it.




A. Thicker font at top (other minor font differences), "Copyright 1977"

Characters Checklist 1st

- found with

Orange Tegel 1., above.

Red Tegel 2., above. (what's that about #160, Al? Later mix-and-match copy??)

- found in

4th print Tegel book (neat observation! :)



B. Thinner font at top, "Copyrighted by Judges Guild 1977" (format as used in previous installments from "I" onwards :?)

Page Not Found

- found with

Orange Tegel 3., above.

- may have been found with

Red Tegel?? (the ref. sheet copy I have but someone else won the Tegel: thought it was a red copy. That owner with those 1st print Tac cards, yellow I6-8s, etc.)

- found in

Purple JG #14 (just to confuse matters!)



killjoy32 wrote:that one prb helps i hope? pleeeeeeeeeeeease dont ask me to open it, cos i really dont wanna :) cos its in super minty mint. the booklet L is the lighter colour than the darker ende booklet.


:twisted:



killjoy32 wrote:so does that help fit your characters checklist in?


hmm... Not really.... Stuck at 65-35 phps. Still contradictory evidence, IMO, albeit some is secondary. What d'ya think, Shane?



Would be useful to check those other three or four, if poss.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:37 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
*checks to see whether you got into trouble for researching after 11pm*

Thanks, Al :)




nah am ok here - mand went home, so was able to sort it, tho am going to bed in a min



harami2000 wrote:
A. Thicker font at top (other minor font differences), "Copyright 1977"

Characters Checklist 1st

- found with

Orange Tegel 1., above.

Red Tegel 2., above. (what's that about #160, Al? Later mix-and-match copy??)

- found in

4th print Tegel book (neat observation! :)




that one had a tan cover sheet with it. on the back of the cover sheet it had a treasure vault (you know, the product list thingy) and the highest numbers on it were D&D 119 tower of ulission, AD&D 124 escape from astigars lair, but highest # was 160 journal 19. thats what i meant by the #160 comment. was meant to help shane mebbe fit it in wherever he fits these things in :D



harami2000 wrote:Would be useful to check those other three or four, if poss.




well it really take quite a time to find the others, cos um i really didnt log what i was storing at the time, cos i didnt have the time to do so - i had 140 boxes of books landing any second and it was a case of just move stuff fast and i cant remember the box they are in, even IF they are all together, which i doubt too :)



from memory tho, i dont think they will help any more than these ones will.



well i did try :)



still think the guy off here, who has all the instalments with the envelopes is the best option - surely they are all gonna be 1st prints and so that would be the logical starting point for research. was it tntfargo or something...i cant remember now and its really late :D



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:46 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:that one had a tan cover sheet with it. on the back of the cover sheet it had a treasure vault (you know, the product list thingy) and the highest numbers on it were D&D 119 tower of ulission, AD&D 124 escape from astigars lair, but highest # was 160 journal 19. thats what i meant by the #160 comment. was meant to help shane mebbe fit it in wherever he fits these things in :D


yeah, what's a red Tegel doing in there?

(Hence my mix-and-match comment, but prb from the p.o.v. of how JG released the stuff, originally).



killjoy32 wrote:still think the guy off here, who has all the instalments with the envelopes is the best option - surely they are all gonna be 1st prints and so that would be the logical starting point for research.


*nods*

And was the theory I was working to, also, given that other seller with all the original installments, 1st Tac cards w/o product card, etc. Doesn't seem to have helped in this case, however.



G'night ^^

  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:53 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
(Hence my mix-and-match comment, but prb from the p.o.v. of how JG released the stuff, originally).



And was the theory I was working to, also, given that other seller with all the original installments, 1st Tac cards w/o product card, etc. Doesn't seem to have helped in this case, however.



G'night ^^




yeha i agree. i certainly think, without any shadow of doubt, that there IS plenty of mixing and matching that was done back then. i mean back then, would they have been bothered what print was what etc? i think not :) course that doesnt help things none these days either.



i am almost positive tho, that i havent mixed anything up. granted i might have, given how much stuff is here *shrugs* you can only try :)



would be nice to HEAR FROM ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS ANY OF THESE ITEMS TOO!!!! *ahem* :D :D :D



right its off to bed for me - way too late even as it is!



ttfn



  

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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:23 pm 
 

Well my 4 Monster Compendiums have almost the same color paper (very very slight difference) as the Character Checklist..and while the CL is all chapital letters, and only the M and C are capital of the Monster Compendium (they have the same C regarding font).

I do not remember where I got my character checklist from, but my Tegel is the one without the Ende (I'd very much like one of those along with that TV coversheet)

Hell I'd even buy the shrink one and bite the bullet to open it (BUT AL DO NOT OPEN THAT FOR THE SAKE OF KNOWLEDGE)..

I want to say since #14 was priced in Journal K, and the CC was released with L, and the MC was released with M..that the one in the #14 was the 1st, and the CC released after is 2nd (plus it does match the one in the #14 Vol Is).



Thats all from me tonight..



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Post Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:44 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Hell I'd even buy the shrink one and bite the bullet to open it (BUT AL DO NOT OPEN THAT FOR THE SAKE OF KNOWLEDGE)..


yeah, leave that to Ian :P

(without whose misc. shrink openings we would still be missing a few research points)



Plaag wrote:I want to say since #14 was priced in Journal K, and the CC was released with L


OK. Back to the Character Checklists noted in Journal K's "Tips from the Tower", as noted above. Is that, plus the phrasing in the rest of that sentence, indicating that #14- or the CC, at least - was released before "L"? Otherwise not sure why you're noting #14 was priced at the point (in journal K) :?

And if so, why does the loose-leaf #14 have #30 as the lowest stock item?



Plaag wrote:, and the MC was released with M..that the one in the #14 was the 1st, and the CC released after is 2nd (plus it does match the one in the #14 Vol Is).


*g*. Could you draw me a time-line there please, Shane? I lost that somewhere.



"that the one in the #14 was the 1st". What version of the CC is in Al's loose leaf #14? (not yet stated?)



Am a bit confused that Al notes the 4th print Tegel (1980) is "still" using version "A" (thicker font, etc., "Copyright 1977") whereas JG #14 (1978 version, if not the 1977 loose-leaf flavor) is using version "B" (thinner font, etc., "Copyrighted by Judges Guild 1977").

  

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Post Posted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:31 pm 
 

Image



Seeing if that works (thanks for that link)



Anyhow..from that above, CC would have been printed before Installment L so that it could be included in #14, but then also released with L.

I also thought the Al's CC was from #14 (shall have to read up in messages to see if wrong)..also Tom's installment L may have the 1st (though have asked a follow up question to see..since I have a mistake on that page..plus asked ihim what Tegel he also has)



Shall wait on some answers but as to a time line..

I6/7/8 released in 76



#14 first priced in K (but a thought occured to me...would they have released #14 after all of the RR sheets were released..so #14 came after Installment L, but before M since they did not include Monster Compendium sheets)



RR Wizards Guide first released with Installment L only those who got it mailed to them would have this..those bought later, would not, same with those who bought Installment K later on would now have it. (April/May 77)



k..ending this message while I go check on more things..



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