Cool Judges Guild aquisition
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:31 pm 
 

El Diablo Robotico wrote:I put a snipe in on that, but I went too low. I thought I might get outbid, but it was going for such a low price with such little activity that I thought maybe I'd luck out. But I'm probably not as bummed as you, Al, cuz I'm not that big of a collector. Kind of a casual collector comparitively speaking.


:D

next time i will just bang a bid on that will scare everyone away :)

Al



  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:15 am 
 

Hey, what are those "dungeon levels" that I see beside the Judge's screen in that City State Ebay picture.

   Are the dungeon levels a part of the standard CSIO package?

   I have a few pages of dungeon levels that I bought included with a couple of other products.  Are they sought-after items?

   I mean...probably not, but maybe are they part of CSIO?


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:28 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:Hey, what are those "dungeon levels" that I see beside the Judge's screen in that City State Ebay picture.

 Are the dungeon levels a part of the standard CSIO package?

 I have a few pages of dungeon levels that I bought included with a couple of other products. Are they sought-after items?

 I mean...probably not, but maybe are they part of CSIO?

They are part of the CSIO. In all the Revised editions of CSIO they are printed within the book. In the picture the guy has opened the book to map page (staple indentations at the top).

If you have those maps loose on coloured paper, they come from the original edition of the CSIO. Its the hardest one to get a hold of. There has only been two first edition in the past year to go on eBay and the first went to harami2000 (November) and the second was in toymom's auctions (but it wasn't mint or complete IIRC).

A true first should fetch in the region of $100 but I don't know how saleable the maps on their own are.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:38 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:If you have those maps loose on coloured paper, they come from the original edition of the CSIO. Its the hardest one to get a hold of. There has only been two first edition in the past year to go on eBay and the first went to harami2000 (November) and the second was in toymom's auctions (but it wasn't mint or complete IIRC).

Y'know I can't honestly remember now, despite a few of us trying to help DeLaina package up the lots in a coherent fashion.

Pretty sure they wouldn't have been mint, if present (but probably somewhat better than the 1st print Men & Magic that Stephen snagged ;)).

mbassoc2003 wrote:A true first should fetch in the region of $100 but I don't know how saleable the maps on their own are.

Probably not, at present, unless Shane goes with a priced list of every item that isn't based purely on eBay realisations.
And even then, unsure...

  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:10 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:If you have those maps loose on coloured paper, they come from the original edition of the CSIO. Its the hardest one to get a hold of. There has only been two first edition in the past year to go on eBay and the first went to harami2000 (November) and the second was in toymom's auctions (but it wasn't mint or complete IIRC).

Y'know I can't honestly remember now, despite a few of us trying to help DeLaina package up the lots in a coherent fashion.

Pretty sure they wouldn't have been mint, if present (but probably somewhat better than the 1st print Men & Magic that Stephen snagged ;)).

mbassoc2003 wrote:A true first should fetch in the region of $100 but I don't know how saleable the maps on their own are.

Probably not, at present, unless Shane goes with a priced list of every item that isn't based purely on eBay realisations.
And even then, unsure...


A lot of us buy the majority of our collections on eBay. eBay sort of dominate the market in that respect, and the ambitious newbies with their money dictate price. I'm concious of a dip in the market at the moment, but the JG prices are still a good 30% higher that they were nine months ago.

There are exceptions of course. The market being flooded with the common reprints. But the sought after items seem to keep their price well. I remeber buying a 1st edition Magic Realms for £24 which was quite a high price in January. I sold it in April for £48.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:42 pm 
 

£24 in January - That was back when I kept getting outbid on MRs and the other one.
Can't think who it was now :?


I'd seen them go for about £18 last year, which I thought was too much for me

BJS

PS - Ian - yes I need to reply to your PM

  


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:57 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:eBay sort of dominate the market in that respect, and the ambitious newbies with their money dictate price. I'm concious of a dip in the market at the moment, but the JG prices are still a good 30% higher that they were nine months ago.

Yup to all that.

Is certainly problematic if trying to use eBay for price datapoints since many items, especially the earlier ones, appear in batches.
I don't recall anyone selling those early CSIO dungeon level maps by themselves, so it would be impossible to ascribe an eBay "value" to them.

Easier, perhaps, to throw a "consensus" value at an item, knowing that you're no more or less likely to get it "right" than eBay is.
e.g. Could say a decent red Tegel is worth somewhere around $50-60 whereas the "L" book would fetch somewhere around $20; ditto for the maps. Don't need to rigorously collect the eBay data for that.

Anyhow, UK prices are very often higher than US prices for the "classic" stuff. How can that be factored in to a price guide?

Just thinking out loud...

  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:12 pm 
 

I am surprised at how much JG material actually made it over to England.  I  guess that role-playing games were at least as popular there as in America.

For you guys in England...what is your sense of the prevelance of D&D players during the heady days of the late 70's/early 80's?

Also, being English, can you tell the difference in "feel" between American products such as the AD&D Monster Manual and English products such as the original Fiend Folio?

   (If you don't know...a sip of the Fiend Folio tasted like tainted water to most American purchasers.  The art was lurid and the monsters included seemed rather odd.  Did it seem that way to someone from the British Isles market?)

    (Also, has anyone else ever read the monster credits in the Fiend Folio and noticed that all of the most popular, useful and enduring monsters were invented by one guy?)   :)


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:13 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Anyhow, UK prices are very often higher than US prices for the "classic" stuff. How can that be factored in to a price guide?

Just thinking out loud...

One could make a blanket statement that you tend to pay 10-15% extra for products located outside of their country of origin.

You may find UK products sell for more when they are already located in the US. US collectors don't seam to go for White Dwarf, Tortured Souls, the Game Master Publications modules and other UK publications (although most of the ST1's tend to disappear over the water).

I think we get a higher price in the UK for JG rarities because bidders in the UK will bid the items up knowing they don't have to spend $12 on shipping. The fact that a majority of bidders are still US based means there is a bias towards inflating UK sales vs. US sales. UK bidders bid more on UK auctions and the US money will cover the increase.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:58 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I am surprised at how much JG material actually made it over to England. I guess that role-playing games were at least as popular there as in America.

12-18 month lag, perhaps; hence few woodgrains or T1st Greyhawks, but definitely getting "on board" by the time PotVQ came out and getting up to speed as the first JG products rolled in.
*
Ditto for the keystone prozines (mid '77 vs mid '76).

Relative popularity is difficult to tell: certainly can't just link sales of TSR items to role-playing popularity as a whole.
Magazine circulation might suggest the UK was well ahead of the US on a per capita basis within a relatively short period... or else that each of us bought more 'zines over here... or even that WD's inclusiveness trumped TD's in-house approach :)

MShipley88 wrote:For you guys in England...what is your sense of the prevelance of D&D players during the heady days of the late 70's/early 80's?

Can't speak for England. Up North, however, we were having D&D products banned from all shops into the mid '80s. 8O

MShipley88 wrote:(If you don't know...a sip of the Fiend Folio tasted like tainted water to most American purchasers. The art was lurid and the monsters included seemed rather odd. Did it seem that way to someone from the British Isles market?)

Not a particular favorite of mine, either; rather a hodgepodge (inevitable), but still of some use as a hardback to cart around rather than a stack of 'zines.

Still don't know why the Underworld Oracle monsters went uncredited with regards their original creators, no mention of Lou Nisbet and Phil Alexander (IIRC), or why no other fanzine submissions were considered.

MShipley88 wrote:(Also, has anyone else ever read the monster credits in the Fiend Folio and noticed that all of the most popular, useful and enduring monsters were invented by one guy?) :)

That famous Brit, Gary Gygax? ;)

  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:57 pm 
 

No, it wasn't Gygax.

   I am speaking only from memory, but the guy I remember was named Charles Stross....or something very similar.

    Anyway, Charles Stross was credited with:

Slaad
Death Knight
Githyanki
Githzerai
Elemental Lords of Evil (or something similar)

    I think my memory is accurate here....and it is significant that four of these creations remain highly popular/infamous in D&D circles to this day.

    Aside from these, and the Fog Giant, there was quite a bit of head scratching over what to do with dozens of almost identicle 1/2 to 1 HD monsters...all described as lurking about dungeons looking to waylay sleeping adventurers.  (Or something like that.... :wink: )


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:30 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:No, it wasn't Gygax.

Not even for his "why haven't you bought the modules yet?" inclusion of Kuo-Toa, Drow and Lolth? :D

MShipley88 wrote:I am speaking only from memory, but the guy I remember was named Charles Stross....or something very similar.

Yup, thought you might've meant him ( http://www.dungeonlord.co.uk/interviews/stross.htm ).
TSR did well not to get their knuckles rapped for transferring the casual name-borrowing of George Martin's githyanki into a TSR product.

MShipley88 wrote:I think my memory is accurate here....and it is significant that four of these creations remain highly popular/infamous in D&D circles to this day.

Agreed on that. :)

MShipley88 wrote:Aside from these, and the Fog Giant, there was quite a bit of head scratching over what to do with dozens of almost identicle 1/2 to 1 HD monsters...all described as lurking about dungeons looking to waylay sleeping adventurers. (Or something like that.... :wink: )

Heh, heh... just a slight over-generalisation, perhaps? :P

=
Hmm... *looks above*. JG forum... Oops; apologies, y'all! ;)

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:12 am 
 

b_stedman wrote:£24 in January - That was back when I kept getting outbid on MRs and the other one.
Can't think who it was now :?


I'd seen them go for about £18 last year, which I thought was too much for me

BJS

PS - Ian - yes I need to reply to your PM


I got a 1st ed CSIO back in April for £24.05. Although it was not exactly in great condition, and it's missing the Thunderhold map (I was bummed by that). Speaking of which, here's what I got in my package:

Guide to the City State booklet (56 pages)
Guidelines Booklet I (27 pages)
Guidlines Booklet J (18 pages)
17"x22" Players map of the city
4 17"x22" quadrant maps of the city (which when pieced together form a 34"x44" map)
21"x28" Judges map of the city
21"x28" Players map of the city

Based on the descriptions on the keltic JG site, it looks like I got a couple of maps from the later revised edition.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:30 am 
 

El Diablo Robotico wrote:I got a 1st ed CSIO back in April for £24.05. Although it was not exactly in great condition, and it's missing the Thunderhold map (I was bummed by that). Speaking of which, here's what I got in my package:

Guide to the City State booklet (56 pages)
Guidelines Booklet I (27 pages)
Guidlines Booklet J (18 pages)
17"x22" Players map of the city
4 17"x22" quadrant maps of the city (which when pieced together form a 34"x44" map)
21"x28" Judges map of the city
21"x28" Players map of the city

Based on the descriptions on the keltic JG site, it looks like I got a couple of maps from the later revised edition.


The first edition CSIO came with a stack of loose maps of all the dungeon levels (about 9 of them) over and above the City maps and Thunderhold that you describe above. Were those with your package?


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:15 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The first edition CSIO came with a stack of loose maps of all the dungeon levels (about 9 of them) over and above the City maps and Thunderhold that you describe above. Were those with your package?


YOINK! No they weren't. More stuff I'm missing. Damn!

*grump*

Now that we're on the subject, what's supposed to come with a revised edition of the city? I recently acquired the orange cover printing of revised. But I have no idea if it's complete.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:20 pm 
 

El Diablo Robotico wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote:The first edition CSIO came with a stack of loose maps of all the dungeon levels (about 9 of them) over and above the City maps and Thunderhold that you describe above. Were those with your package?


YOINK! No they weren't. More stuff I'm missing. Damn!

*grump*

Now that we're on the subject, what's supposed to come with a revised edition of the city? I recently acquired the orange cover printing of revised. But I have no idea if it's complete.


Original CSIO: Guide to the City State (56-page booklet), yellow Booklet I (16-page booklet), Booklet J (12-page booklet), huge City State Map (34"x44" map - 4 sections), City State Player Map (17"x22" map), Judges Thunderhold/Sunstone Cavern Map (11"x17" map), Players Thunderhold Map (8.5"x11" map), Dungeon Level Maps I: Levels 1-5 (5 8.5"x11" maps), Dungeon Level Maps J: Levels 1-4 (4 8.5"x11" maps) and cover sheet.
Revised CSIO 4th Printing: (1981) Cover has red background with white lettering. ‘Official Playing Aid Approved for Dungeons & Dragons' on the cover along with small item number and price at bottom left corner. 6th edition is stated on the first page. 96 page book with 2 22.5"x28.5" maps (Judge, Player)

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:38 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Dungeon Level Maps I: Levels 1-5 (5 8.5"x11" maps), Dungeon Level Maps J: Levels 1-4 (4 8.5"x11" maps)

That's the ones.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:28 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:Original CSIO: Guide to the City State (56-page booklet), yellow Booklet I (16-page booklet), Booklet J (12-page booklet), huge City State Map (34"x44" map - 4 sections), City State Player Map (17"x22" map), Judges Thunderhold/Sunstone Cavern Map (11"x17" map), Players Thunderhold Map (8.5"x11" map), Dungeon Level Maps I: Levels 1-5 (5 8.5"x11" maps), Dungeon Level Maps J: Levels 1-4 (4 8.5"x11" maps) and cover sheet.


I have everything else, but I'm definitely missing the Thunderhold map, as well as the Dungeon level maps. Dang. Have a feeling those will be hard to get a hold of. :(

Plaag wrote:Revised CSIO 4th Printing: (1981) Cover has red background with white lettering. ‘Official Playing Aid Approved for Dungeons & Dragons' on the cover along with small item number and price at bottom left corner. 6th edition is stated on the first page. 96 page book with 2 22.5"x28.5" maps (Judge, Player)


My Revised came with more maps. I did get the two city maps (Judge and Player) but I also got a Thunderhold map and a huge fold out of the undercity stuff (which is pretty damn cool in its own right!). Might have more too, but I'm not at home right now, so I can't look at it and list what I have.

(Got it for the half-way decent price of £10.50 too; I'm pretty happy with that purchase!)

  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:42 pm 
 

El Diablo Robotico wrote:
Plaag wrote:Original CSIO: Guide to the City State (56-page booklet), yellow Booklet I (16-page booklet), Booklet J (12-page booklet), huge City State Map (34"x44" map - 4 sections), City State Player Map (17"x22" map), Judges Thunderhold/Sunstone Cavern Map (11"x17" map), Players Thunderhold Map (8.5"x11" map), Dungeon Level Maps I: Levels 1-5 (5 8.5"x11" maps), Dungeon Level Maps J: Levels 1-4 (4 8.5"x11" maps) and cover sheet.


I have everything else, but I'm definitely missing the Thunderhold map, as well as the Dungeon level maps. Dang. Have a feeling those will be hard to get a hold of. :(

Plaag wrote:Revised CSIO 4th Printing: (1981) Cover has red background with white lettering. ‘Official Playing Aid Approved for Dungeons & Dragons' on the cover along with small item number and price at bottom left corner. 6th edition is stated on the first page. 96 page book with 2 22.5"x28.5" maps (Judge, Player)


My Revised came with more maps. I did get the two city maps (Judge and Player) but I also got a Thunderhold map and a huge fold out of the undercity stuff (which is pretty damn cool in its own right!). Might have more too, but I'm not at home right now, so I can't look at it and list what I have.

(Got it for the half-way decent price of £10.50 too; I'm pretty happy with that purchase!)


3rd Printing: (1980) Cover has gray background with red lettering. ‘Official Playing Aid Approved for Dungeons & Dragons' on the cover. 80 pages and doesn't count cover as page 1. Item number and price in small box at bottom left corner.

Now that I look at this copy that I have also it seems I have a loose I-5 sheet (dungeon level 5 with players thunderhold on reverse and copyright 1976) and the Judges copy of Thunderhold (copyright 1976). I assumed these were for the original CSIO but looking at the cover for this RCSIO it states 84 pages (actually 80 plus cover), comes with two lagre maps (it does), has the thunderhold judge and player (if loose then it has to be the copyright 1976 ones), and 10 maps included (but only 8 in mine J 1-4 marked, levels 1-4 none marked though they are the "I" maps)

just found the confirming bit to the above...

The red/orange cover 4th printing has a picture ad for RCSIO and CSWE (the RCSIO is the 3rd printing with the price/item # in the box and has 4 maps. Judge/Player city maps, Judge thunderhold like mine and the I-5 sheet.)
Now the 4th has its player thunderhold (colored) on the back cover, I-5 only "I" map marked after the others (plus both level 1 and 2 are now in color), judge thunderhold/sunstone caverns in the center of the book.

WHEW!

Pretty jazzed now finding all that out :)
Of course now I have to write that in a better format and update my list..

Back to original message..underworld map (I may have to dig out the #860 Wraith Overlord: Terror beneath the City State to see if it may be that, unless someone else wants to tackle that)

*ends rapid, jumbled sentence structure mode*
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Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:50 am 
 

Okay, so after getting home, I checked my RCSIO and I misremembered what came with it. I got the two city maps (Judge and Player) but the Thunderhold map was in the center of the book.



I did get a large 35"x22" undercity map which is titled "Wraith Overlord City-State Sewer Map." One side of the map has sewer maps connecting a bunch of buildings in the city. The other side has a bunch of smaller dungeon maps such as Temple of the Spider God, Thieves Guild, School of Ancient Knowledge, and a bunch of other stuff. I'm guessing that this isn't part of the original.



So to summarize, the RCSIO that I received from auction included:

94 pg book

22"x28" Judge map

22"x28" Player map

35"x22" Wraith Overlord map



Yay for bonus items! :)

  
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