Tunnels & Trolls fakes
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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:34 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.


But she's THE Judge... :wink:


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:49 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.


You did understand I was joking.  Right?


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:54 am 
 

Hence my Judge Judy reference...


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:10 am 
 

Check with an attorney, but if a "contract" contains illegal elements it is void as a matter of law and not a contract.  For instance, you can not sue to get a dope dealer to give you your dope or money where dope dealing is illegal.  You also can not "contract" to provide services or publications that incorporate theft from third parties.  You can steal from other people as an individual or as part of a group, but you have committed an illegal act.

Also, verbal contracts are more or less enforceable based upon the jurisdiction.  In some/many states verbal contracts are enforceable, but it depends upon the situation and context.  Witnesses, voice mails, canceled checks can all be used to support them.

The ambiguity of verbal contracts is why wise business people execute signed contracts.  They are very clear and generally easy to enforce, (albeit sometimes it's a tad pricey).  /shrug


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:31 am 
 

Pipswich wrote:Check with an attorney, but if a "contract" contains illegal elements it is void as a matter of law and not a contract.  For instance, you can not sue to get a dope dealer to give you your dope or money where dope dealing is illegal.  You also can not "contract" to provide services or publications that incorporate theft from third parties.  You can steal from other people as an individual or as part of a group, but you have committed an illegal act.


You lost me on this one tieing in the dope to the publishing issue. Are you advising Ken and his attorney to check his contract so that he can find a way to invalidate it?

The ambiguity of verbal contracts is why wise business people execute signed contracts. They are very clear and generally easy to enforce, (albeit sometimes it's a tad pricey).


I don't think any attorney would ever use the word "easy" to describe litigation. Are you speaking from experience ... it sounds like you had to shell out a lot of money in the past. How pricey did it get?  :?

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:03 pm 
 

Judge Judy is one of the Immortals, referenced as such in my gold box.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:54 pm 
 

misterspock wrote:
I don't think any attorney would ever use the word "easy" to describe litigation. Are you speaking from experience ... it sounds like you had to shell out a lot of money in the past. How pricey did it get?  :?


Yes, attorneys all use the word 'profitable' when they describe litigation, at least among themselves.


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:00 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:Judge Judy is one of the Immortals, referenced as such in my gold box.


Is she similar to one in the Indian or Chinese pantheons with three faces, as Judge, Jury and Executioner? :D

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:13 pm 
 

One thing specifically missing from Ken St. Andre's open letter is the threat of legal action.  The fact that it is not there seems significant to me.


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:08 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:One thing specifically missing from Ken St. Andre's open letter is the threat of legal action.  The fact that it is not there seems significant to me.



I think you're right on that point.  Unfortunately, it seems like Shipman's counting on the fact that pursuing legal action against him is simply too expensive an option.  From what I gather, Ken has sent C&D requests, and Shipman, in turn, files claims that he, not Ken, owns Tunnels and Trolls.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:05 pm 
 

Don't know anything about the ins and outs of it, but it all seems rather sad.

Perhaps creative people shouldn't go into business - certainly into the rpg business, as seems to have been proven over time.


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:11 pm 
 

This is the guy that was trying to sell CD roms of all our books a couple years ago. Clark got him banned once on Ebay.



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Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:32 pm 
 

Sorry for the bump, but I'm curious if anyone else is currently getting spammed by Outlaw Press emails lately.

I ordered one package from Outlaw, like in 2006 or something. The quality sucked and it appeared much of it had been stolen and photocopied, so I quickly wrote them off. And I never heard a peep after that ...

... until now. I'm getting an email about every third day or so. I just told the guy to fuck off and die in a grease fire, but he seems to think that means I want to have some sort of meaningful dialogue with him. Jesus wept.

Finally, fair warning: he is making a big deal about taking his site "private" and requiring a password to join. Red flags everywhere. I would sooner trust a rabid wolverine with my personal information that I would this clown.

FWIW.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:51 pm 
 

I'm on the spam list too.  The stuff I bought from him way back was all a big scam too - copies of items that the author's didn't know were being produced.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:22 am 
 

yep...got the spam just the other day.  This guy is like a bad penny...


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Post Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:51 am 
 

Ran across this auction.  Seller list most of the books as published by Outlaw Press.  Should I assume that these products are in violation of copyrights?




** expired eBay auction **

  

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:45 pm 
 

And he's back!!!

Scamwatch: James L Shipman II And Outlaw Press - Bleeding Cool Comic Book, Movie, TV News

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:58 pm 
 

Badmike wrote in Tunnels & Trolls fakes:And he's back!!!


I felt dirty bidding on the True West RPG offered by Tadashie (authored by Shipman) even though it might be a legit photocopy.

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:33 pm 
 



Heh.

What I love about this place is I can be about member for three years and still feel like a gatecrasher. These old threads that highlight your experiences with scammers, ebay cranks and other niche nerd nemeses simply reinforce that feeling.

That being said, I shared this story on FB this morning and it has been my most commented on and shared post ever (Why, oh why not a link to the webstore?). His brazenness strikes a nerve apparently, but can he honestly be doing this for the money? Or is this some strange case of revenge fantasy? Mental Instability?

I am at a loss. Interesting post though.

Zach



  

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:07 pm 
 

He offers enough stuff that people who don't know his story would buy from him and think its legit.  A number of the items he has obtained the okay from authors to publish and sell (unknown to me whether the new artwork used is legit or not).  But he basically has continued on since 2009 so he must be doing well enough.  Not all of the copied images have been replaced though - his Outlaw Games logo is a character taken from The Realm comic.

I wonder what percent of his business is legit (50/50)?

It reminds me of an older story about an online business that sold eye glasses - they would basically screw over about 10% of their customers (take their money, refuse to send product, swear and threaten them if they called to complain, etc).  They were so bad that they had lots of cases on the better business bureau and lots of websites had threads complaining about them.  Since all of these credible websites had links to the glass seller, they ranked no 1 in Google search and made large profits (until ultimately exposed but this was the case that prompted Google to alter how their search engine ranked links).

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