Tunnels & Trolls fakes
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:29 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I am not a lawyer but I have watched a lot of Peoples Court


I've watched Judge Judy from the US and a verbal contract does hold some credence.


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:47 am 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote: But I find it a little odd and disingenuous on his part that St. Andre posts this message all over the RPG boards, trying to generate anti-Outlaw sentiment, without actually saying what the problem is or what the agreement was. All this being said, IMO Outlaw Press should honor the "requests" being made.



At this point, the problems are manifold, and have been spelled out in excruciating detail elsewhere; I'm assuming Ken simply didn't want to rehash the last couple of years of copyright infringement, forgery, and attempts by Shipman to claim ownership of the T&T IP.

Shipman is apparently VERY reluctant to commit to ANY kind of contract in writing; here's a post by another Hobbit Hole contributor describing his experiences.  

http://eposic.net/blog/archives/298


Ken also requested that Shipman NOT publish Gristlegrim, based on the artwork issue and poor editing, back in 2009, at which time he pointed out that there was no contract for such publication.  That being the case, I think Shipman would have a very hard time arguing that he was publishing in good faith on the strength of a verbal agreement.

Add in the products Shipman's been publishing that he apparently never had permission to publish--like Monsters!  Monsters! and Sorceror's Apprentice--and I don't think he's the victim of bad press.   If it was just Ken's word against Shipman's, that would be one thing--although I'll freely admit that I'd be inclined to take Ken's word.

It's not, though; it's Ken and Rick Loomis and a fair number of others who have submitted work to OP and a whole bunch of people who NEVER submitted work to OP, but find it published by OP nonetheless.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:44 pm 
 

The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:51 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.


I bet you read all the legal blogs  :D

http://www.lawlawlandblog.com/2010/08/t ... .html#more

  


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:34 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.


But she's THE Judge... :wink:


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:49 am 
 

SimperingToad wrote:The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.


You did understand I was joking.  Right?


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:54 am 
 

Hence my Judge Judy reference...


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:10 am 
 

Check with an attorney, but if a "contract" contains illegal elements it is void as a matter of law and not a contract.  For instance, you can not sue to get a dope dealer to give you your dope or money where dope dealing is illegal.  You also can not "contract" to provide services or publications that incorporate theft from third parties.  You can steal from other people as an individual or as part of a group, but you have committed an illegal act.

Also, verbal contracts are more or less enforceable based upon the jurisdiction.  In some/many states verbal contracts are enforceable, but it depends upon the situation and context.  Witnesses, voice mails, canceled checks can all be used to support them.

The ambiguity of verbal contracts is why wise business people execute signed contracts.  They are very clear and generally easy to enforce, (albeit sometimes it's a tad pricey).  /shrug


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:31 am 
 

Pipswich wrote:Check with an attorney, but if a "contract" contains illegal elements it is void as a matter of law and not a contract.  For instance, you can not sue to get a dope dealer to give you your dope or money where dope dealing is illegal.  You also can not "contract" to provide services or publications that incorporate theft from third parties.  You can steal from other people as an individual or as part of a group, but you have committed an illegal act.


You lost me on this one tieing in the dope to the publishing issue. Are you advising Ken and his attorney to check his contract so that he can find a way to invalidate it?

The ambiguity of verbal contracts is why wise business people execute signed contracts. They are very clear and generally easy to enforce, (albeit sometimes it's a tad pricey).


I don't think any attorney would ever use the word "easy" to describe litigation. Are you speaking from experience ... it sounds like you had to shell out a lot of money in the past. How pricey did it get?  :?

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:03 pm 
 

Judge Judy is one of the Immortals, referenced as such in my gold box.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:54 pm 
 

misterspock wrote:
I don't think any attorney would ever use the word "easy" to describe litigation. Are you speaking from experience ... it sounds like you had to shell out a lot of money in the past. How pricey did it get?  :?


Yes, attorneys all use the word 'profitable' when they describe litigation, at least among themselves.


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:00 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:Judge Judy is one of the Immortals, referenced as such in my gold box.


Is she similar to one in the Indian or Chinese pantheons with three faces, as Judge, Jury and Executioner? :D

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:13 pm 
 

One thing specifically missing from Ken St. Andre's open letter is the threat of legal action.  The fact that it is not there seems significant to me.


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:08 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:One thing specifically missing from Ken St. Andre's open letter is the threat of legal action.  The fact that it is not there seems significant to me.



I think you're right on that point.  Unfortunately, it seems like Shipman's counting on the fact that pursuing legal action against him is simply too expensive an option.  From what I gather, Ken has sent C&D requests, and Shipman, in turn, files claims that he, not Ken, owns Tunnels and Trolls.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:05 pm 
 

Don't know anything about the ins and outs of it, but it all seems rather sad.

Perhaps creative people shouldn't go into business - certainly into the rpg business, as seems to have been proven over time.


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:11 pm 
 

This is the guy that was trying to sell CD roms of all our books a couple years ago. Clark got him banned once on Ebay.



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Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:32 pm 
 

Sorry for the bump, but I'm curious if anyone else is currently getting spammed by Outlaw Press emails lately.

I ordered one package from Outlaw, like in 2006 or something. The quality sucked and it appeared much of it had been stolen and photocopied, so I quickly wrote them off. And I never heard a peep after that ...

... until now. I'm getting an email about every third day or so. I just told the guy to fuck off and die in a grease fire, but he seems to think that means I want to have some sort of meaningful dialogue with him. Jesus wept.

Finally, fair warning: he is making a big deal about taking his site "private" and requiring a password to join. Red flags everywhere. I would sooner trust a rabid wolverine with my personal information that I would this clown.

FWIW.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:51 pm 
 

I'm on the spam list too.  The stuff I bought from him way back was all a big scam too - copies of items that the author's didn't know were being produced.

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