Tunnels & Trolls fakes
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:04 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I immediately grabbed the zoom feature, expecting to land on the roof of outlaw-press.com.

I landed instead on an interesting satellite photo of a forest.

You can do that, but you'll need to click on point "B" first.  I was disappointed with the poor resolution in the area, though.  Maybe we can get Google to send over a truck.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:29 pm 
 

Is this the same person?

http://the-hobbit-hole2.angelfire.com

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:33 pm 
 

Allison wrote:Is this the same person?

http://the-hobbit-hole2.angelfire.com


Yep, that's one of the websites he's created to sell his stuff.

Even his logo looks like it is stolen art.  It looks like the character from The Realm comics.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:59 pm 
 

Interesting comments from Ken St. Andre regarding Outlaw Press to be found in a brand new Tunnels & Trolls magazine, TrollsZine.

Ken St. Andre wrote:For the last several years, the Tunnels and Trolls fannish world has been served by an excellent magazine called the Hobbit Hole. Putting together a good magazine isn't easy and I'm very proud to say that HH was a work of love by several of Trollhalla's most talented members. I will mention just a few who have contributed to make that magazine a delight: Ea, Grumlahk, Mhegrrrim, Ramsen, Hogscape, and Shipy. Many others helped with stories, articles, solos and gm-dungeons. It was great while it lasted.

But that chapter in Trollish history has ended, and HoHo, as we affectionately called it, has come to an end. The hobbit publisher got caught with his hands in the cookie jar, and he didn't always treat his talent as well as he should have, and the Outlaw Press publishing empire has fallen.

Posted in light of Allison posting that link last week.



  

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Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:51 pm 
 

More from Ken St. Andre regarding the James Shipman/Outlaw Press debacle:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=1 ... st12781787

Kind of surprised that this didnt happen sooner though.


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Post Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:16 pm 
 

Wow, that is a clear statement!


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:24 am 
 

lokiwookie wrote:Wow, that is a clear statement!


Most certainly was! I'd imagine that message is throughout the RPG world now already..


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:03 am 
 

Which will doubtless push the culprit into deeper cover, but prolly not dissuade him.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:26 pm 
 

Then retaining a lawyer is the next action.



  

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:30 am 
 

Just a thought....

Are we really sure the Outlaw Press guy is wrong?

Ken St. Andre can repudiate his agreement with his former partner at Outlaw Press...but, was there a contract?  What did the contract say?


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:41 am 
 

Considering Ken St André message, I guess that there is only a verbal agreement. But if not, it is a good point.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:56 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:Just a thought....

Are we really sure the Outlaw Press guy is wrong?

Ken St. Andre can repudiate his agreement with his former partner at Outlaw Press...but, was there a contract?  What did the contract say?


Yeah. St. Andre's post expressly indicates that there was a verbal contract of some sort, the details of which he doesn't specify. He also mentions a falling out, the details of which he doesn't specify. Of course a verbal agreement wouldn't hold up in court. But it's entirely possible that Outlaw Press is just carrying out the terms of the verbal agreement (sending money/product, etc.), and ignoring St. Andre's desire to break the agreement. Without more detail, who knows? But I find it a little odd and disingenuous on his part that St. Andre posts this message all over the RPG boards, trying to generate anti-Outlaw sentiment, without actually saying what the problem is or what the agreement was. All this being said, IMO Outlaw Press should honor the "requests" being made.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:55 am 
 

I may be mistaken (wouldn't be a first) but wasn't/isn't Outlaw Press using material that isn't theirs to use? i.e Artwork?


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:43 am 
 

ashmire13 wrote:I may be mistaken (wouldn't be a first) but wasn't/isn't Outlaw Press using material that isn't theirs to use? i.e Artwork?


The original thread is on the Neromancer Games forums (I believe). It starts out with this one guy from South America who recognizes the work of an artist and is sure it can't be legit. He then gets blasted for a couple of pages before someone else recognizes their artwork being used, then it quickly becomes an avalanche of artists finding their work being used without permission.

It is a very interesting read, but I don't have the link.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:09 am 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
The original thread is on the Neromancer Games forums (I believe). It starts out with this one guy from South America who recognizes the work of an artist and is sure it can't be legit. He then gets blasted for a couple of pages before someone else recognizes their artwork being used, then it quickly becomes an avalanche of artists finding their work being used without permission.

It is a very interesting read, but I don't have the link.


That's what I thought.. I had seen it somewhere, maybe even here. Faro may have the link, but it may equally have been on another site although I haven't ever visited the Necromancer Games forums.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:58 pm 
 

The RPG community naturally favors a good guys versus bad guys view of any issue.  We can be quick to line up on a side and start flaming when an issue like this pops up.

Is it possible that St. Andre is distancing himself from a project for reasons other than a disagreement over publishing rights?  For instance, is he distancing himself from the pirating of artwork now that it has been discovered?

Not saying yes or no...just pointing it out.

I am not a lawyer but I have watched a lot of People's Court.  A verbal contract does have some weight in law, particularly if the Outlaw Press guy is selling items he published under a verbal agreement.  Once an item has been published it seems disingenuous for one side to declare that it cannot be sold.  Also, St. Andre says in his letter that he is still depositing the checks.  A deposited check is exhibit #1 in a business dispute.


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:29 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I am not a lawyer but I have watched a lot of Peoples Court


I've watched Judge Judy from the US and a verbal contract does hold some credence.


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:47 am 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote: But I find it a little odd and disingenuous on his part that St. Andre posts this message all over the RPG boards, trying to generate anti-Outlaw sentiment, without actually saying what the problem is or what the agreement was. All this being said, IMO Outlaw Press should honor the "requests" being made.



At this point, the problems are manifold, and have been spelled out in excruciating detail elsewhere; I'm assuming Ken simply didn't want to rehash the last couple of years of copyright infringement, forgery, and attempts by Shipman to claim ownership of the T&T IP.

Shipman is apparently VERY reluctant to commit to ANY kind of contract in writing; here's a post by another Hobbit Hole contributor describing his experiences.  

http://eposic.net/blog/archives/298


Ken also requested that Shipman NOT publish Gristlegrim, based on the artwork issue and poor editing, back in 2009, at which time he pointed out that there was no contract for such publication.  That being the case, I think Shipman would have a very hard time arguing that he was publishing in good faith on the strength of a verbal agreement.

Add in the products Shipman's been publishing that he apparently never had permission to publish--like Monsters!  Monsters! and Sorceror's Apprentice--and I don't think he's the victim of bad press.   If it was just Ken's word against Shipman's, that would be one thing--although I'll freely admit that I'd be inclined to take Ken's word.

It's not, though; it's Ken and Rick Loomis and a fair number of others who have submitted work to OP and a whole bunch of people who NEVER submitted work to OP, but find it published by OP nonetheless.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:44 pm 
 

The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:51 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:The People's Court and Judge Judy are not courts of law. They deal in legal arbitration.


I bet you read all the legal blogs  :D

http://www.lawlawlandblog.com/2010/08/t ... .html#more

  
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