New Troll Lord Games Sale
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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:53 pm 
 

They just posted this on their web site today.
http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/pdfs ... 10sale.pdf


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:03 pm 
 

Any experts know which of that stuff is worth buying for investment/resale purposes?

Thanks!

  

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:50 pm 
 

Not an expert, just my shot at an assumption.

Dark Druids due to it being Rob Kuntz and not as likely to be reprinted unless they work out a deal with him

Anything else maybe not collectible, though some of it is great material.

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:54 pm 
 

The majority of the stuff has been on sale in one form or another for quite some time, off and on. Dark Druids will most likely never see another release by the Trolls, and the Codex of Erde is being remade into something else, but there are dedicated C&C players looking to get them until that happens -- if the leatherettes were the most recent print (they're one or two behind) then they could be worth getting. But, essentially... all of this is stuff the Trolls have been trying to clear out for 3+ years. I doubt it has re-sale value unless you find someone who has none of it and is looking to get a lump collection.

Of course, that has nothing against the quality of the works, but that is subjective.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:41 pm 
 

There's nothing currently being printed by TLG that is a safe bet for future investment purposes. Little of the TLG stuff resells above it's RRP with the exception of of a few CZ related products.

The only TLG products I would be willing to stake money on are CZ:UW, the CZ Yggsburgh Districts, CZ Dark Chateau (the first print more so than the second), The C&C Signed 300 White Boxes, and Crusader #1.

The production quality is not sufficient to put it in the league of the likes of Necromancer's major collectables, and the writing is not sufficiently unique and talented to make collectable by virtue of the author's ability.

There may be the odd little thing that slips through, but those will more than likely be freebies, fly-by-night and oddball products, and those insignificant little things that don't even crop up in shops or in sales. Towers looked interesting for a moment, but the production and presentation were poor, presumably to keep costs low. Office lazerjet and cheep card boxes is the modern equivelant of JG and it's newsprint fetish, but even the newsprint stuff lasted in sufficient quantity to keep JG prices low pretty much across the board.

For future investments, look to other company's product to put your money into. Buy if you want to play, that's what they write the stuff for anyways, but don't buy if you want a return for your money. That's a whole different ballgame.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:57 pm 
 

I merely posted the news about the sale in case anybody was looking to fill a few holes in their collection.
I still have a problem reconciling why TLG pumped out so many modules before they have released their Castle Keepers Guide.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:33 pm 
 

We will never know the logic behind these arcane mysteries.
TLG are caugth in the classic RPG publisher trap of having to continuously push out new products to generate income, regarless of the quality of those product, and that is the problem Goodman Games now face as well. Neith company has the inhouse financial resource, vision, or access to talent, to publish an anchor piece of work upon which they can build their future.

GG tried to build a campaign world, and then made the fatal error of publishing Castle Whiterock which is very bad for what it's meant to be. Embarrasingly so. And then WoTC pull their 4E trick and sink the entire companies dreams as a final nail in a fairly closed coffin. Now they struggle on in a fairly dead market, pushing mediocre product with access to some good tallent, but cost and time have led to them puting less consideration into presentation and typesetting, and printing on poor quality stock, relative to what they used to be known for.

TLG had the foundation of all foundations upon which to build the next big games company. They had EGG and this Magnum Opus. And they assembled a team of talent to do it justice. This was what New Infinities was meant to be. A virtual dream team with the best of all product. A guaranteed cash cow from now until eternity. And in one foul swoop, Trigee kill the cow. They might be keeping the carcus, but the cow is quite definately dead. It's starting to stink up the joint over at Trigee. But unfortunately that left TLG with a shaky foundation, C&C, and their mediocre quality inhouse printing and a dubious loyalty to a box manufacturer who produces pretty bad quality products to boot.

So for two completely different reasons, to companies who had fairly strong starts have taken big leaps backwards in quality and production, and it presumably is impacting on them. But they both have similar aims and have both complimentary product lines, and different but complementary skill sets inhouse. So a merger and a pull in a single direction would probably strengthen them into a pretty robust company.

I'm sure politics and persoanl pride will never allow such a thing to happen. I do live in the real world. In a few years we'll all look back and remember them fondly.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:01 am 
 

astenon wrote:Any experts know which of that stuff is worth buying for investment/resale purposes?

Thanks!


I have some of the items in question.  

The various Kublai Khan modules might be collectible...although not as playable modules IMO.

The Codex of Erde is not bad but not collectible at the moment.  Give it a decade or so.  It has been on sale literally for years.

The various C&C modules are not bad values at $5 but my inclination is to hold out for $1 each.  (Which is what their D20 modules went down to.) That's what they're worth for at least a few years.  These items have been on sale for a long time at these prices.  

In spite of some ardent supporters I cannot see C&C surviving for much longer.  I hope I'm wrong, actually.  :?

I think Troll Lord Games had a good run with their D20 modules, and for a time they had the big opportunities.  

The Lost City of Gaxmoor was one of the best D20 modules and it is often still available for cheap.

I think Dark Druids is worth your time.

Hall of Many Panes, for Lejendary Adventures, is often on Ebay for less than $10 and it is a thick boxed set by Gary Gygax.

The Yggsburgh publications are worth hunting down.  I also like the map supplements to City of Yggsburgh, except (as I have ranted before) the frickin' maps should have been in the hardback book in the first place.

Poor shipping practices and poor quality control hindered Castle Zagyg:  The Upper Works (for C&C) but even the pre-destroyed copies they sent out are likely to grow in value even more than their current inflated price.

Castle Zagyg: Dark Chateau is currently selling for insane prices.  (And a glance at my shelf reveals that my copy is not there...where the hell is it?  :( )

The various Gary Gygax Worldbuilder series books, such as The Canting Crew are all collectible.

What you will note is that these publications are not on the list of items for sale.  Troll Lord Games lost the rights to the Gygax publications and they jettisoned D20 for a grab at C&C.  

Troll Lord Games has sold adventures for four different systems, starting with their own Sword and Sorcery, D20, Lejendary Adventures and Castles and Crusades.  The earliest versions of their After Winter Dark line of publications were for Sword and Sorcery.

There has been a ray of hope for Troll Lord Games with James Ward writing new materials and attempts to keep pushing C&C items.  They are still an active company.

James Ward's series of fantasy tower modules might do a lot better on RPGNow but they suffer from one of the worst listings I have ever seen.  It is difficult to see what you're getting and there are two $1 modules and a $10+ module for sale with virtually the same name...and no text to explain.  It almost seems like they're being vague on purpose because they know the quality of their product.  (Here's a clue:  Words in English telling us clearly what we are getting rather than literally a blank page with a title and a price.)

I'm hoping they survive.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:04 pm 
 

and the writing is not sufficiently unique and talented to make collectable by virtue of the author's ability.


If I did not partially agree, I would be offended, being one of those "non-talented" authors. It is easy to write rules. It is not easy to make them interesting.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:14 pm 
 

I really do wonder what some of these people are thinking when they set a price on a used book.  On Amazon:

$999.99 for East Mark Gazetteer
$988.88 for Dark Chateau

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:15 pm 
 

Mars wrote:I really do wonder what some of these people are thinking when they set a price on a used book.  On Amazon:

$999.99 for East Mark Gazetteer
$988.88 for Dark Chateau

I often thought that those people that set high prices like that on Amazon then list the items on eBay and point to the Amazon listing to convince people that they are getting a deal.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:30 pm 
 

serleran wrote:
If I did not partially agree, I would be offended, being one of those "non-talented" authors. It is easy to write rules. It is not easy to make them interesting.


I would not agree that the Troll Lord Games modules are not interesting or that their writers are not talented.  That's a pretty harsh judgement.

If it had been written in a different era, Lost City of Gaxmoor would be a classic...a Dark Tower sort of publication.  There are really a number of good things to say about that product.

The modules written for the After Winter Dark setting, such as Vakhund and its two brother modules, would have profited from being issued as a single module.  One of them actually has a battle in it, but overall there is not enough adventure for three modules.  (Maps!  Maps!)

I really liked Dark Druids.

If you read back (somehow) on my posts you'll find my review of Yggsburgh where I loved the product (maps!  :x ) but mourned the failure of the overall project in advance as doomed to failure because of its price and schedule.

I think Troll Lord Games left the D20 ship too early.  Now, they should consider allying with Paizo and supporting Pathfinder.  I do not believe that Castles and Crusades is viable.  

Pathfinder is the logical heir of 3rd Edition D&D...and WOTC helped make it happen by abandoning Dungeon and Dragon magazines to the ether, leaving Paizo with their hardcore customer list...an angry list.

Mind you...this has nothing to do with the relative merits of Pathfinder or Castles and Crusades.  I just think the market favors Paizo.

I'll be cheering for Troll Lord Games to survive.

(And I bought a couple of inexpensive Towers of Adventure PDF publications just the other day.  My main response is...mystification.  There's almost literally nothing there.  One is left wondering if the PDF file was corrupted in some way.  Certainly, there is nothing to indicate I should buy the more expensive product of the same name.  

I saw that James Ward was interviewed in Troll Lords' house magazine about the Towers of Adventure products.  I wondered, "What the hell did he talk about?"  It would be like discussing thin air as a building material or the color of clear.  :scratch:  I must have missed something.)


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:47 pm 
 

Heh, you obviously missed the point of my post, but cool. Nice to see someone likes the stuff that is not a standard flag-waver on their boards. And, people have been saying C&C is not viable since its inception. That argument is boring.

And, no, TLG should not support Pathfinder unless they want to support Pathfinder, and since it is mega-d20, I don't see that happening.... ever. C&C exists because they wanted away from d20. It would seem silly to step backwards.

Otherwise, I don't speak for them, nor do I want to. But, I will take issue with being called a hack. Which I am. But, in my own uninspiring way. ;)

And, one last thing. I agree there could have been some amazing things done, but things happen, and happened, and the "blame" should not be put solely on the heads of the Troll Lords, though likely some is deserved.


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:45 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:In spite of some ardent supporters I cannot see C&C surviving for much longer.  I hope I'm wrong, actually.  :?

Not that it's a new one since the same thing has been said by others since before the game was released, but what made you come to this conclusion?

I hope you're wrong too. :)



  

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:34 am 
 

Traveller wrote:Not that it's a new one since the same thing has been said by others since before the game was released, but what made you come to this conclusion?

I hope you're wrong too. :)


1)  All the others have failed.

2)  Troll Lord Games itself seems to be in disarray.

3)  Pathfinder.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:13 am 
 

and the writing is not sufficiently unique and talented to make collectable by virtue of the author's ability.

I just wanted to point out that mbassoc2003 is not saying here that the authors are untalented. He is saying they are not talented enough to make a product collectible. I dare say that is true of 99% if all gaming authors out there!


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:58 am 
 

On the three points:

1)What others? True20? Blue Rose? OSRIC? Which "others" are we talking about? The failures of others does not mean a like thing will happen to those that remain -- in fact, it could bolster the remaining ones.

2) Has that ever been different? Heh. Actually, they are more focused now than ever. Had it not been for a setback from the printers (who wanted something like $50k) there would be more TLG products out -- but, because the Trolls smartly refused to pay this ludicrous sum to the print house, they moved things in-house and ran into some snafus with the printings, like being 1/8" off center or whatever. There have been many things released of late, which is not usually the sign of a company in "disarray." Hell, even Crusader Magazine has stuck to its monthly promise... something it had never done before Jim Ward got on-board.

3) C&C survived fine under D&D 3.5. Pathfinder is a completely different audience. Pathfinder, like C&C, is not some "holy grail" of gaming that all must flock to-- they offer what they offer and the people interested in them will find them, or not. Already on the boards some people mention they went with C&C because they did not like the ultra-heaviness of d20/PF rehash, which is not saying much... but it does say not all want PF, D&D, or any other specific game. That is why so many of them exist.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:41 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:1)  All the others have failed.

2)  Troll Lord Games itself seems to be in disarray.

3)  Pathfinder.

Define failure. Better yet, tell us what games you are thinking of, since this statement is incomplete. It does not tell us which games have failed, and it's also inaccurate since it assumes that all other games have failed, which is patently untrue. Unless of course you're thinking that Pathfinder is the "one true game", since you mention it as reason three that Castles & Crusades will not survive.



  

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:15 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:
1)  All the others have failed.

2)  Troll Lord Games itself seems to be in disarray.

3)  Pathfinder.


1) Some companies have moved to 4e, others to other rule sets.  But to claim every company from the 3.x boon failed, I'd disagree.  product lines I'd even disagree as well (while I know some have discontinued these)

2) I've seen more an upswing in products, maybe less modules and more higher end products.  Even with the loss of Gygax's properties, the shift is not one of disarray but more focusing on what they can do.

3) While I'm all for Pathfinder/Paizo, I don't see them killing C&C.  Hell if anything it may help drive people away from 4e and back to anything 3.x related be it Pathfinder or C&C.

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:35 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:
1) Some companies have moved to 4e, others to other rule sets.  But to claim every company from the 3.x boon failed, I'd disagree.  product lines I'd even disagree as well (while I know some have discontinued these)

2) I've seen more an upswing in products, maybe less modules and more higher end products.  Even with the loss of Gygax's properties, the shift is not one of disarray but more focusing on what they can do.

3) While I'm all for Pathfinder/Paizo, I don't see them killing C&C.  Hell if anything it may help drive people away from 4e and back to anything 3.x related be it Pathfinder or C&C.

ShaneG.


1)  Not failed companies.  Failed RPG's.  I mean RPG's other than D&D. (I know many will take exception to the word "fail," but I'm just saying my opinion.)

2)  From my point of view, whenever I have encountered the Troll Lords in the past year, they have stumbled badly.  My recent experience with two of their newest PDF products was just plain baffling.  The printing and shipping fiasco with Castle Zagyg: The Upper Works....yikes.  Loss of the Gygax licenses...ouch.  Old products that have been on sale at dump-off prices literally for years and are still around...not good.  New game edition promised but not appearing...oh boy.  Having been involved in a failing business, and having dealt with other failing businesses, I know the signs.  Individually those are bad signs.  Taken together, they are bad indeed.

3)  It isn't Pathfinder versus C&C.  It's "established niche market" versus "shrinking niche market."  It is "huge sales with big new launch" versus "Umm, when is that coming out?"  Paizo's product has market advantages over Troll Lord's product, plain and simple.

Here I am, tearing down Troll Lords...not what I meant to do.  :?   It's just the truth.


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