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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:47 pm 
 

Promote a site is fine, and this is the place to discuss it.
But to front a site like BGG and elude to the fact that you're contributing to RPGG and would like to name names, but won't, and then not be willing to answer questions, and try to defend the current abortion of a regime with exclamations like 'less than 0.1% of people give a f"ck if it's correct or not is just 'a55hole' in my books.
And to level that sort of attitude on the Acaeum and what we represent invites the same sort of response straight back.
I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.
I'm just willing to say it.


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:07 pm 
 

. wrote:Promote a site is fine, and this is the place to discuss it.
But to front a site like BGG and elude to the fact that you're contributing to RPGG and would like to name names, but won't, and then not be willing to answer questions, and try to defend the current abortion of a regime with exclamations like 'less than 0.1% of people give a fuck if it's correct or not is just 'asshole' in my books.
And to level that sort of attitude at Acaeum members and what we represent is only going to get the same sort of response straight back.
I know I'm not the only one who feels the same way.
I'm just willing to say it.


Yeah but I just like calling you Bobbing Head Cat Piss Man more than the acaeum member formerly known as Mbassoc.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:09 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
Yeah but I just like calling you Bobbing Head Cat Piss Man more than the acaeum member formerly known as Mbassoc.

I'd change my name to BHCPM, but I like the spot.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:45 pm 
 

. wrote:But to front a site like BGG and elude to the fact that you're contributing to RPGG and would like to name names, but won't, and then not be willing to answer questions, and try to defend the current abortion of a regime with exclamations like 'less than 0.1% of people give a f"ck if it's correct or not is just 'a55hole' in my books.

See. This is what I don't understand. I thought I was promoting RPGG, but somehow I'm fronting it? It would be like me going to the RPGG forums and linking the Acaeum. Am I fronting the Acaeum if I do that?

What names am I supposed to name? I've already said that beyond casual membership, I have nothing more to do with the site. It seems that most people here know the admin names... what more do you want me to provide?

If there were questions asked in a way I could answer them, I would. But so far they have all been directed in a way that assumes I have something to do with the site. For the third time, I don't! You seem to comprehend the English language well enough, what don't you understand about that statement? And frankly what's the point? Everyone here seems to have preconceived notions about what RPGG is all about, and I don't think I'm going to change anyone's view. But if you are interested, try me.

Seems that since I didn't sit at my computer and wait for you to respond so I could respond right back at you, I've erred...

Well, you break down the demographics of the roleplaying hobby for me and tell me what percentage of them truly do care about versions and prints. To me as an active roleplayer and casual collector, I find it nice to know that there are versions of games but don't collect them all (hence "casual" collector). Yes, there are those who do, but it's a tiny minority of the hobby as a whole. If my hyperbole grates on you so much, please set me straight with the facts, and links to the data.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:18 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:Not true. Not even close.

It might be true for the general public as a whole, but it is certainly nowhere near true for the sub-set of people who take the time to search for gaming information on the internet. Many, many people from that second group care about the details, as evidenced by the flame-wars that erupt over at BGG whenever the tiniest of details gets changed.

Again, I am told that I am wrong - but if you take a subset of people... and that's my point. The Acaeum is a subset of the roleplaying community, which is a subset of the gaming community. RPGG will satisfy the needs of most roleplayers, ones who do not find their scratch itched will eventually find places like the Acaeum. To make it more clear, I am referring to the subset of people in the most general sense, not the subset that you are referring to. I would guess (and for fuck's sake people, this is my personal guess, disagree if you want to but no need to crucify me for it) that 80+% of active roleplayers play games that are in print, only own games that are in print or since they started roleplaying, and are only looking to the future to satisfy their gaming itch. That's the target audience of RPGG.

I tend to ignore the flamewars on BGG as well as most other sites (including the recent 4e ones) as I simply don't care that much. Everyone is ultimately a lumper or a splitter. What happens on BGG in regards to game versions is that the Ls or Ss are the most vocal, and then the Admins decide on a course of action. Just like how our democratic governments work (except I suspect there are fewer kickbacks on BGG).


Xaxaxe wrote:But I think it's very interesting how often I see negative reactions to BGG outside of BGG. From the top down, that place is horribly mis-managed. The level of resentment toward the management there is a very real thing; these aren't made-up feelings.

I don't really see this, but we're looking through different eyes, and probably for different purposes. It seems well enough managed for the purposes I've seen, and the resentment I've seen from the outside (Fortress Ameritrash is the only example I know of) was started by a total jerk who deservedly got the boot. It was a shame, since 80% of what he contributed was amazingly positive, but then he got an attitude on the forums that overshadowed everything good he did. I would be curious if you would link to anything you have handy so I can catch up on the anti-BGG side of things.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:21 pm 
 

Eryops wrote:Okay, when the head Cat Piss Man has made his feelings clear to me, I know when I should go away... I hope you think your cock feels a little bit bigger now . ...

One more story before I'm driven off with sticks - I first heard of the Acaeum through a thread on another site showing how rude and assholeish everyone was here. I thought to myself, "These guys aren't really rude, and hey, they *really* know their stuff!" So I decided to give it a try. For the next year and a half I've learned more about D&D and it's history, collectability, and didn't really detect levels of antagonism that were above your average board. But wow, thank you for making me see the true colours of the Acaeum, despite my best efforts not to.

I'll be sure to pass on my experiences with anyone who asks in the future...


Every board has a few.....

I don't hold you responsible for anything sinister, because you were just bringing something to our attention.  But we are a high strung bunch over here, no doubt.  The bar is held pretty high....I know the comparison is completely whacked, but people here really feel like they are historians of the hobby, and for a new site to basically give them the finger, it hurts.  Not to mention disseminates a lot of what will undoubtedly be wrong information.  All for the prospect of new advertising dollars. So people are getting a little pissy, I'm sorry they took it out on you.

Our focus here is far different than the new site will be.  I (and others I bet) feel like the new site will simply steal all our research and data, without any sort of nod to us, and present it as their own.  More pissiness.

My first few posts here I was raked over the coals for virtually nothing. I managed to hang in here. I hope you stick around.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:29 pm 
 

Mars wrote:Does there really need to be 737 images for this game?  For some people it really has just devolved into a place where you can put pictures of yourself playing the game instead of relevant pictures of the game itself.

The way the 'economy' works on BGG is that you are rewarded with 'Geekgold' for contributing to the site. Geekgold is earned by adding a game to the database, adding session reports, adding reviews, and adding photos. So if you want to earn an avatar or microbadges, you need to contribute. Adding a photo is by far the easiest out of all of those things to do - hence 737 (and counting) images. It really does dilute the usefulness of BGG.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:38 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Our focus here is far different than the new site will be.  I (and others I bet) feel like the new site will simply steal all our research and data, without any sort of nod to us, and present it as their own.  More pissiness.

I can understand that sentiment. On most boards, I have the attitude of "Half a part, and half apart." I don't really have any emotional investment in ANY message boards I partake in. I do apologize about my 99.9 vs 0.1% comparison, as that seemed to set a lot of people off again. It's just me looking at it as a consciously outside observer (I'm a scientist by trade). Of course I didn't mean to degrade anyone's efforts or the niche we populate in the hobby - simply stating facts through my eyes.

And of course, you'll have ME as a regular participant on RPGG. Regardless of any of my personal feelings towards any of you ;) I can't in good conscience ever allow credit to go without proper recognition and permission (again, that little scientist in my head). So if any of you were worried about that, please rest easy!

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:41 pm 
 

Eryops wrote:To make it more clear, I am referring to the subset of people in the most general sense, not the subset that you are referring to. I would guess (and for fuck's sake people, this is my personal guess, disagree if you want to but no need to crucify me for it) that 80+% of active roleplayers play games that are in print, only own games that are in print or since they started roleplaying, and are only looking to the future to satisfy their gaming itch. That's the target audience of RPGG.

Mhmm... by-and-large and that wouldn't be a "problem" (just a "missed opportunity") even if it didn't have the older rulesets in the same place, too. The target audience for BGG already does have a nice splurge of interests at the edges back to the 1970s/80s and before and it shouldn't be any great difficulty to carry that through to a relatively new hobby.

Badmike wrote:I know the comparison is completely whacked, but people here really feel like they are historians of the hobby, and for a new site to basically give them the finger, it hurts.

Well, that's happened in reverse for long enough, so fair game IMO.

Badmike wrote:Not to mention disseminates a lot of what will undoubtedly be wrong information.

There's still a fair amount of "wrong information" over here (core site), Mike, with no interest in changing/updating that. I honestly couldn't say which model to run things is actually the best but there will inevitably be a large number of active contributors to the front-end content over at RPGG.

Badmike wrote:Our focus here is far different than the new site will be.  I (and others I bet) feel like the new site will simply steal all our research and data, without any sort of nod to us, and present it as their own.  More pissiness.

Heh... well at least they've stomped (in principle) the idea of ripping images from other sites so that's one better than rpg.net, no?


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:03 pm 
 

I have the feeling that I've missed something here.   :?

IS Boardgame Geek some stort of power-mad vehicle for game domination?   8O

I went there once...checked out the Yaquinto game Beastmaster.  

Interesting.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:44 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:I have the feeling that I've missed something here.   :?

IS Boardgame Geek some stort of power-mad vehicle for game domination?   8O

I went there once...checked out the Yaquinto game Beastmaster.  

Interesting.


Yes it is Mark - you were lucky you only went once, as I hear that on the second visit they own your very soul (though you do get a nice little avatar and a badge in compensation) :D  :D

Seriously though - don't know a lot about BGG - sold a couple of games there once (and bought a couple as well), but never really did the forums and generally found the site a bit unwieldy.

It's a tough one, generally the more information/knowledge out there the better, but if something is done badly it could potentially harm the reputation of the collecting community. In the end though, the serious names/faces will come here eventually - let's face it if yoiu really want to know D&D you can't really avoid this site 8O .


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:49 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:I have the feeling that I've missed something here.   :?

IS Boardgame Geek some stort of power-mad vehicle for game domination?   8O

I went there once...checked out the Yaquinto game Beastmaster.  

Interesting.

I don't think it's any different from other boards I've been to, albeit it's quite a large one. It has the usual personalities, and alphas who have worked their way to the top of the food chain. I don't see it being more heavy-handed moderation-wise than some boards I've been to (certainly not to the degree that RPG.net is moderated).

I think a lot of the grief it gets is that the admin (Aldie) earns his living off of the site. It's been alluded to in this thread that decisions that have been made are a direct consequence of that fact. And rightly so! If I was making decisions that directly affected my livelihood, damn right a lot of them would be working in the direction that put more $$ in my pocket. I don't fault him for that in the least. Of course, people will disagree on that, and spew the 'sold out' or 'commercial' adages, but people say a lot of things on the Internet. Same as if the creator of the Acaeum decided to earn some money from this site, there would be a LOT of changes, and not everyone would agree with the new direction it would take.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:31 pm 
 

Eryops wrote:I don't think it's any different from other boards I've been to, albeit it's quite a large one. It has the usual personalities, and alphas who have worked their way to the top of the food chain. I don't see it being more heavy-handed moderation-wise than some boards I've been to (certainly not to the degree that RPG.net is moderated).

I think a lot of the grief it gets is that the admin (Aldie) earns his living off of the site. It's been alluded to in this thread that decisions that have been made are a direct consequence of that fact. And rightly so! If I was making decisions that directly affected my livelihood, damn right a lot of them would be working in the direction that put more $$ in my pocket. I don't fault him for that in the least. Of course, people will disagree on that, and spew the 'sold out' or 'commercial' adages, but people say a lot of things on the Internet. Same as if the creator of the Acaeum decided to earn some money from this site, there would be a LOT of changes, and not everyone would agree with the new direction it would take.


My problem with this is that he doesn't have an interest in making the best or even a very good site; all the owner has to do is put up a functional site, one that attracts hits and advertisers, and their job is done.  Someone who has a perfectly decent website hasn't "sold out" unless they are putting out a sub-standard product merely to pull in cash.  I'll wait to see what kind of website is generated, but so far I have nothing to point to that fills me with confidence.

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:08 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:My problem with this is that he doesn't have an interest in making the best or even a very good site; all the owner has to do is put up a functional site, one that attracts hits and advertisers, and their job is done.
From how I read this, you would rate BGG 'below average' in terms of board game sites on the internet. For what they've set out to do, I believe that BGG is THE best board game site. I'll state a few reasons why I think so:

- Great database of board games.

- Allows me to keep a catalog of games I own, when I've played them, my own personal ratings (which are part of the overall database) any comments I have about the game, etc. There is actually quite a lot you can do with your collection.

- Has a system of 'Geekbuddies' which is a list of other users that you can use when browsing games. With a click it will show you how all of them have rated a particular game. This is actually a novel feature, since if I'm going to have a game night with Dick and Jane, I can check out potential games and find out with a few clicks if they've played them and how they rated them (so I know if I should put Settlers of Catan in my bag).

- Allows you to put games up for trade and sale, and you can filter the results in many ways. For instance, if I have Settlers up for trade and I want Puerto Rico or Power Grid in trade, I can filter so that only users that have either PR or PG for trade and want Settlers in trade will show up. That's a very resource intensive feature of the site, and not something that someone 'throwing something together' would bother with.

Those are some of the features available. It is a good, functional website that has the usual quirks to it, but they are constantly evolving and bringing in a lot of features that the users are demanding.

Of course it's been brought up in this thread that BGG isn't interested in a lot of the things that this membership is. That's okay. That also doesn't make BGG a bad site. It doesn't even make it a 'below average' site. If you wouldn't mind, please paste some URLs of other board game sites that do meet your needs so I can compare them myself.

Badmike wrote:I'll wait to see what kind of website is generated, but so far I have nothing to point to that fills me with confidence.
Confidence to have the same information found here? Absolutely not. Confidence to be able to go to the message boards there and get the quality answers you get here in just a few hours turnaround? Not a chance in hell.

But if you're curious about more recent stuff or general knowledge? I bet you'll find what you're looking for. If that doesn't elevate it above an 'average' site, the ideal site will probably remain in someone's imagination. And there's no way it can be worse than RPG.net's attempt at a database.

I would say take a look at RPGG in 2012 and see where it's heading. I've fiddled with the beta and entered in a few modules, and it's pretty confusing. There are a LOT of fields that they are trying to get info on, and knowing what info to put where can be a challenge. Of course, when you do screw up, a mod has to fix it for you. It looks like it will be more hierarchical than BGG is (with 'system' and 'family' being some of the trunks of the database).

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:32 pm 
 

Eryops wrote:Badmike wrote:
 My problem with this is that he doesn't have an interest in making the best or even a very good site; all the owner has to do is put up a functional site, one that attracts hits and advertisers, and their job is done.

From how I read this, you would rate BGG 'below average' in terms of board game sites on the internet. For what they've set out to do, I believe that BGG is THE best board game site. I'll state a few reasons why I think so:


Comments are directed at the new RPG site, not the existing BGG site.  I thought I've made that pretty clear in my discussions.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:44 pm 
 

faro wrote:
 Badmike wrote:
 I know the comparison is completely whacked, but people here really feel like they are historians of the hobby, and for a new site to basically give them the finger, it hurts.

Well, that's happened in reverse for long enough, so fair game IMO.


Who have we pissed on?  Did I miss something?

 Badmike wrote:
 Not to mention disseminates a lot of what will undoubtedly be wrong information.

There's still a fair amount of "wrong information" over here (core site), Mike, with no interest in changing/updating that. I honestly couldn't say which model to run things is actually the best but there will inevitably be a large number of active contributors to the front-end content over at RPGG.


There's very little wrong information here of IMPORTANCE, unless it's VERY specific in nature (I wouldn't even try to get into the middle of POTVQ's various printings for fear of suffering a mental breakdown).  At that, unless the "active contributors" know their stuff and aren't just desperate to collect "Geek Gold" ("Hey, I'll scan B2 again so I can collect some more booty!"), there is no way this new site will come within a 100 miles of what has already been done here, ToT, and the Acaeum wiki.  

Faro, I'd love to see a list of all the "wrong" information here, if nothing else then for my own benefit. Otherwise it's all smoke blowing in the breeze....

So far I'm seeing that content over there will have to be changed by Mods, many of whom admit they don't know anything about RPGs.  I think the best model by far is the Acaeum Wiki, which allows users to edit their own additions.  

 Badmike wrote:
 Our focus here is far different than the new site will be.  I (and others I bet) feel like the new site will simply steal all our research and data, without any sort of nod to us, and present it as their own.  More pissiness.

Heh... well at least they've stomped (in principle) the idea of ripping images from other sites so that's one better than rpg.net, no?


We'll see........ :?

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:42 am 
 

I'm pretty impressed with a site admin that can earn a living off of his website.

That would mean caveat emptor for the visitor, but I can't see where running a game site for money is necessarily bad.  :?

I wish I were clever enough to make money off a game collecting site  :!:


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:06 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:I'm pretty impressed with a site admin that can earn a living off of his website.

That would mean caveat emptor for the visitor, but I can't see where running a game site for money is necessarily bad.  :?

I wish I were clever enough to make money off a game collecting site  :!:


Nothing that terrible about BGG....it serves a purpose.

Nothing wrong with anyone making a living off a gaming website.

Nothing wrong with making a few bucks off a informative RPG website.

I have a problem with just tossing out a website with little informative or accurate content, concerning the hobby I love, if the sole purpose is to create a platform for snagging advertising dollars.

If the new BGG RPG website has in depth, accurate, and informative information about every RPG system, and has a good streamlined and easy to use entering and editing system, and is receptive to changing entries when glaring errors appear, I will have no problem and welcome them with open arms.

If they throw out a shoddy, inaccurate, and misleading product ("The Final Word about RPGs!") and are insanely and stubbornly resistant to changing an entry even when the information is blatantly incorrect, or they choose to not divide their classifications into editions ("1E and 2E and 3E and 4E are all D&D, so what's the problem?"), I'll probably bitch.

Whether or not I find the site up to my standards is probably not a huge concern to the brains behind this, as I am not their target audience (nor are most of us on the site, I'm going to assume).  Frankly even though it would have been nice for the powers that be to solict input from the fonts of knowledge here (I don't even count myself one of these; many on these boards have much more accumulated collecting wisdom) or at ToT that isn't their goal, it's becoming apparant.  Maybe I just like to bitch a lot (It has been suggested). :wink:

I like a lot of what BGG does....create a community, a platform for listing and trading games among members, a decent database for something I don't know much about (boardgames) that I can go to when I have questions, game reviews of stuff I see that I think I might be interested in, etc.

From comments I see on the threads dedicated to the RPG site on BGG, I have my doubts whether this new site will offer the same kind of experience to RPGers.

I'm willing to have them knock my socks off and blow me away.....I'd eat crow all the way home.  

Mike B.


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