Suspected Modern Reproductions
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:54 am 
 

> EDITED FIRST POST <

The overstock of Manual of Aurania available online through NKG and some eBay resellers have been confirmed by the Author as genuine product printed under a distribution agreement circa 1978 by J. Tibbetts & Sons.

In my experience Noble Knight Games do not knowingly resell vintage products when their authenticity is questioned, and have always demonstrated integrity and professionalism in researching and answering questiones posed by the collecting community.

This thread remains for the sake of posterty and as a record of the research and information gathered.


I suspect that the DunDraCon City Modules currently offered by NKG may be reproductions. They are ink jet printed on thin laser jet paper. Whether Aaron is aware that he is selling them or not, I don't know, but these are the third set of forgeries that Noble Knight Games have all of a sudden found a large stock of.

First Gamelords Montie Haul Dungeon
Then Gamelords Complete Tavern

What about DunDraCon City Map Modules and their stock of Manual of Aurania?

>EDIT<

Thread title changed for obvious reasons. My sincerest apologies for the aggresive nature of my post. I do not doubt Aaron's integrity or honesty, but question some of the sources of these products. Let's face it, there is plenty of evidence that Lou Zocchi 'manufactured' products by Wee Warriors to meet percieved demand at points in the past. Such things did go on, and it is not unreasonable to speculate that a box load of DGs or Character Archaics might turn up.


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:41 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:01 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The DunDraCon City Modules sold by Noble Knight Games are fake. They are ink jet printed on thin laser jet paper. Whether Aaron is aware that he is selling fake goods or not, I don't know, but these are the thire confirmed set of forgeries that Noble Knight Games have all of a suden found a large stock of.

First Gamelords Montie Haul Dungeon
Then Gamelords Complete Tavern
Now DunDraCon City Map Modules

And there is suspicion over their stock of Manual of Aurania.

When will they stop this? Who is photocopying their stuff for them? And will Aaron appear hear and account for this 'stock error'?


They should change the name of the company now.
Selling fakes is not so noble to begin with and doing so knowingly is simply Evil....

Getting hit twice without foreknowlegde...is (perhaps) excusable.
But three or four times and the copies being so blatant as what you described?

No excuse would forgive such disregard for truth and fairness.

Corporate greed is a killer.


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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:04 am 
 

There was a long discussion about the DunDraCon items that included a comparison with a separate reliable source that showed them to be of a similar format.

Also, where are you seeing the fake Gamelords items for sale?  They were removed from his catalog a couple years ago when he was informed they were fakes.  The stock photos of the fake items were also removed at that time.

Manual of Aurania also seems to be the same as all the ragged copies that have been for sale on Ebay that I have ever seen (at least the 2nd Edition versions).

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:12 am 
 

The fake Gamelords stuff was pulled a while ago.
The point is, somehoe they are getting ahold of reproduced stuff IN BULK and shifting it through their site. I am sitting on five copies if DunDraCon City Modules, and these are laser jet ink on laser jet paper. No way are they circa. 1978. Maybe circa. 1998 (the undiscovered 2nd printing). Either way, they should not be shifting bulk photocopies of products.

As regards Manual of Aurania, I have two copies from two sources on eBay, one I bought some six years ago, and the other in a bundle from a shop clearance some four years ago, so I have no doubt about the authenticity of my copies. But I don't want to buy a copy from Aaron, because he was sitting on many copies some six to nine months ago, and with all the other fakes, I have serious doubts about whether they are real of fake.


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Fri May 01, 2009 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:12 am 
 

Just so I'm clear,

I believe that all of the items on your list sold by NK are authentic.

The only issue of selling confirmed fakes is the Gamelords items (2 years ago) and once that was brought to Aaron's attention, he removed them for sale.  It took a couple weeks longer to remove and change the stock photo that he was using.

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:23 am 
 

I would be interested to see a comparison between a NKG City Modules copy, and a City Modules copy that has a pedegree that can be traced to another source. My comparison here is with what I can print out from my own Epson printer, a Canon photocopier, the five (sorry six) copies of the NKG City Modules, and the quality of printing on DunDraCon's Dungeon Referee Map Modules cover sheet and products Clint Bigglestone was publishing at the time.

>Word 'Suspected' added to title of thread so as not to draw Moderator's wrath<

Found the previous thread... http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5848&highlight=dundracon The consensus at the time was that Noble Knight Games was selling fakes. I remember e-mailing them at the time, as I did about the Gamelords stuff, and received nil response. These have been on sale now for 22 months, and they are quite deffinately photocopies (or at least the six copies he sent me are!).


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:29 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:   ..... >Word 'Suspected' added to title of thread so as not to draw Moderator's wrath<

Found the previous thread... http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5848&highlight=dundracon


yep adding that was a good idea.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:31 am 
 

Aneoth wrote:yep adding that was a good idea.

Seems to say the same think.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:31 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:As regards Manual of Aurania


For this one, I had a copy of this that I bought 8 years ago on Ebay but was well used.  I bought two copies in shrink from NK about 5 years ago and they matched the used one.  NK has had 20+ copies of this one for years.  While they were selling for $40-$50 on Ebay 5-8 years ago, NK had them for sale for $25, then $20, now $15.

As for the DunDraCon item.  We are really only talking about the item that was printed in black ink.

1)  This matches a copy sold in an independent auction more than a year before NK got their copies.  It was sold with at least one other unquestionably authentic DunDraCon item (maybe 2).

2)  NK received their copies of this item along with a bulk lot of the DunDraCon Artifact cards which I am guessing you aren't questioning the authenticity of.

3)  The black ink version also matches the copy later sold by the guy who bought the Clint Bigglestone estate.  I bought a number of other Bigglestone items from him that are authentic.

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:35 am 
 

The DunDraCon City Map Module I bought from NKG was printed on a dot matrix. I can tell by the pixelation in the lettering. Reminds me of the old days of using PrintShop from an Apple II.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:51 am 
 

I didn't know Singh shrinkwrapped Manual of Aurania?!
I cannot really comment on MoA because I haven't bought one from NKG. I was just concerned at them sitting on bulk stock of something easily photocopied.

City Map Modules on Dot Matrix printer sounds unusual.

How does the paper and ink quality of the NKG City Map Modules compare to the other Clint Bigglestone products in your collection, and what are they?


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:54 am 
 

City Map Modules on Dot Matrix printer sounds unusual.


It could also be done from a typewriter. It definitely does not have a modern inkjet perfect text quality.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:59 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Found the previous thread... http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5848&highlight=dundracon The consensus at the time was that Noble Knight Games was selling fakes. I remember e-mailing them at the time, as I did about the Gamelords stuff, and received nil response. These have been on sale now for 22 months, and they are quite deffinately photocopies (or at least the six copies he sent me are!).


From this thread, I read the exact opposite - I think it shows the NK ones are legit.

Also, it shows that for the last 22 months, NK has been only selling legit Gamelords items.

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:15 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:How does the paper and ink quality of the NKG City Map Modules compare to the other Clint Bigglestone products in your collection, and what are they?


I almost have a complete collection of Bigglestone items (missing 1 item and possibly a couple prints).

Here are the Fantasy Factory ones:

http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=197

and the DunDraCon ones:

http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=533

Clint also did more of a wargaming book that I don't think I have listed.  I think its called "The Killing Ground".

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:29 am 
 

How does the actual ink and paper between the two compare?
Aurania - What type of shrinkwrap? Like the loose JG and TSR shrinkrap of the 80's or heat shrink shrinkwrap? Do you think the author shrinkwrapped them? Or sell them to a gamestore who then shrinkwrapped them?


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:38 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:How does the paper and ink quality of the NKG City Map Modules compare to the other Clint Bigglestone products in your collection


That is a difficult question because almost all of the Clint Bigglestone products seem to have a different feel.

For the DunDraCon items, each one has a different paper quality and different ink.  There is no consitency to any of these items.

Referee Map Modules - black ink cover, blue ink maps
City Modules - black ink cover, black ink maps
Artifact Cards (1st print) - cut out cards on cardstock
Artifact Cards (2nd print) - uncut cards on paper with a blue paper cover page.

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:51 am 
 

I'd have to dig these out to really do a thorough check over everything.

I recall that the Aurania is a loose shrink like the old Judges Guild items - it seems authentic.  As for who put them in shrink, no idea if it was Singh, a distributor, or a gamestore.  I have never been able to track any of the author's down.

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:53 pm 
 

Mars wrote:I'd have to dig these out to really do a thorough check over everything.

I recall that the Aurania is a loose shrink like the old Judges Guild items - it seems authentic.  As for who put them in shrink, no idea if it was Singh, a distributor, or a gamestore.  I have never been able to track any of the author's down.

In all likelihood, he shifted his surplus prints to a gamestore and they put it in loose shrink (of the time) to keep prom hetting spoiled. I've seen unusual items in shrink before. So long as the shrink is consistent with the time period I don't think there's any reason to worry.

Would certainly be interested in a more detailed study of the ink and paper across the Bigglestone range.


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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:51 pm 
 

Hi,

to quote Ian Fleming:

Once is happenstance,
Twice is circumstance,
But THREE times, Mr Bond, Three times is enemy action

Cheers,
Malc

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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:46 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The DunDraCon City Modules sold by Noble Knight Games are fake. They are ink jet printed on thin laser jet paper. Whether Aaron is aware that he is selling fake goods or not, I don't know, but these are the thire confirmed set of forgeries that Noble Knight Games have all of a suden found a large stock of.

First Gamelords Montie Haul Dungeon
Then Gamelords Complete Tavern
Now DunDraCon City Map Modules

And there is suspicion over their stock of Manual of Aurania.

When will they stop this? Who is photocopying their stuff for them? And will Aaron appear hear and account for this 'stock error'?


I was saying the Dundracon City map modules were fakes for years, but I got shot down.  They don't look, feel or smell like they are 30 years old.  Regardless, this is one of the most useless, ridiculous and overpriced items (even if it was only $1) ever released with even a tenuous gaming connection.  To be blunt, I was glad to get rid of the copies I owned for exactly what I paid; I couldn't charage a penny more seeing as I couldn't be 100% sure they were created the day before on a photocopier.

I don't know anything about the others unless they are the same stock that I got off that ebay guy a few years ago where it was definitely proven they were high quality photocopies. Like everyone said I think Aaron pulled these long ago.

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