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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:23 am 
 

Rather than continue to clutter up the Interesting Non-TSR items on Ebay thread, let's bring this discussion here, out of the way.  Now:

Mars wrote:Actually that is the point. I don't want to rehash the whole ST1 incident aside from saying that IMO it was something that got blown way out of proportion and was something that wasn't handled very well on either side of the dispute. I personally don't believe that TFM started the auction with the intent of wrongdoing. I also believe in giving second chances and also do give people respect when they contribute back to the hobby. If you look through the old posts about the Jeff P auction, you will notice the big acknowledgment to TFM for his contribution - I think he also mentioned he was going to do this in the dispute thread. So I don't think there is any doubt that the ST1 came from him.


I am sorry Mark, but IMO it really doesn't matter at all.  Aside from the fact that even if the ST1 was one of his, that it is certainly nice gesture to Jeff Perrin, but it really does not help the community at large(and I am not saying he should be or is obligated to anything for the collecting community, I am just saying that he doesn't get credit for helping the "collecting community" for it either) you can't just sweep the rest of the history of it all under the rug anyway because of it.  First off and foremost, despite the fact that it may have ended up in the Perrin auction, that wasn't his initial intent.  He made pretty clear in his posting on ToT what his original intentions were. The fact is that Kynan lied on Ebay about it, then when he was questioned about it here, he came here and lied again to defend himself. After ot was proven he lied, he then left in big shit storm, never to return all because he got busted.  

Again, nobody told Kynan to leave here or even hinted at it.  He pissed in our faces by lying to us all about it originally and he never bothered to ever come back to offer the truth to set the record straight or offer any type of apology for lying to everyone.  The most ridiculous part of it all is the fact that he has the balls to be pissed at Scott for not stepping in and doing anything about, even though years after the fact we all now know that what he was being accused of was 100% true.  He knew it at the time and we all know it now and yet somehow, the whole ordeal is somehow Scott's fault. What the hell is that?  

Now he sits over on ToT and in pretty much weekly rants pisses and moans about how bad the hobby and most of the people in it is. He also rants about how the Acaeum sucks because it lets people attack other people andhow he is tired of the same old faces. What he fails to realize is that he is in fact doing the exact same thing over on ToT that he complains about that goes on here.  He is a giant freaking hypocrite.

Mars wrote:He is not referring to the VB forum but rather the one that Scott has for his buddies or those he deems worthy - yes the one that Mike Kuo was part of but then got kicked out of, then left etc, etc. Again, this bit is really none of my business and not something that I am capable of debating (for lack of details) but the end result was that not only did it alienate Mike but others as well.

That forum is long gone.  It was turned into the VB forum which was created way back in 2004.*****  Kynan wasn't even a registered to the site back then as he didn't formally join the forum until 2005.  On top of that, again ToT was entire forum that he did in fact join that was 100% private long before it went public. If he had such an issue with private forums where people talked about other members of the collecting community(and yes I know for a fact that they did talk about people there, some of which was cleaned up prior to its opening, some of which is still on there) then why did he have no problems joining ToT when it was still private?

Mars wrote:From what I gather, the goal of ToT has always been to cover all RPGs or at least all the 3rd party D&D and generic fantasy items that the Acaeum has never had any serious intention of covering.  If anything its the Acaeum that is trying to squash ToT with the new Acaeum Wiki whose goal is what?  To do exactly what ToT is already doing.


Again, I think you are badly misinformed. Whether or not ToT was originally set to cover all things or not, the point is that Kuo came up with the idea with the sole purpose of subjugating the Acaeum after his fallout with Scott.  There is really not much more to it than that.

As far as the Acaeum Wiki goes, can you really blame most people for not wanting to join ToT and instead decide to put their efforts towards the Acaeum Wiki?  The history of ToT's origins aside, when ToT went public a year and a half ago, it was done secretly.  Several members here got "special" private invitations from certain members and they did their best to leave almost everyone else out.

Do you really think that the people who were left out liked that?

Do you think that the intentional exclusion of most people is just going to be forgiven for no reason?

I don't and nor do I believe it should.   Without speaking for anyone else, but I would imagine that most of the other people left out feel the exact same way as I do. If ToT was so interested in making their site great, then why do their best to leave almost everyone else out? It was and is a crap move,  it cost them and now ToT is paying for it in a big way do to the fact that Grubbiv created the Wiki and ToT has slowed down to what seems like a couple posts a day max. I know you have invested a lot of time in ToT and I feel for you, but you were one of the "privileged" ones to get a secret invite, everyone else was left out.  Why should people who were left out now go running there to help out?  It makes no sense to think that people should.

==============================================

***** For the record, the first post on the VB forum from what I can tell occured on September 12th, 2004.  The ToT forum came to be on September 11th, 2004.  In other words the private forum being discussed was in fact turned into what the VB board is now.  Also, FWIW, here is Kuo's post about the "Secret Forum" on here from back in March 2004:

viewtopic.php?p=5302&highlight=#5302

Mkman wrote:Howdy Mcwillie! I haven't faded into the sands of time, just lurking around. After being kicked out of the inner circle (an exclusive private forum on this board) I see no need to continue posting within Scotts website. It was fun but it is fun no more, so much for UNMODERATED forums.

Futures Bright
Mkman


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:12 am 
 

Hi,

personally, I don't have any issue with TFM.
He is obviously doing a "tease" on Ebay, but so what? He's paying his fees.

There are ppl on here thieves, but others treat them decently.

The only problems I have with ToT are:

1  I find it hard to navigate
2  I find the forums very sterile

Cheers,
Malc

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:50 am 
 

To state my position;

I don't have any problems with ToT.  I think they provide a valuable service, and it is a great repository of knowledge. However, as Malcom stated, it is a sterile enviorment, and I do find it difficult to navigate.  There doesn't seem to be much evidence of community, and days can go by without posts on anything. The subject matter is much more academic based, and the entire place can be very intimidating to a novice (hell, I"M intimidated when I do visit).  I think that it and the Acaeum can exist side by side.  The Acaeum while being a repository of info, is much more informal, and I get a much better feel of community.  Like any "club" or group we have our issues, but it usually gets sorted out, or at the least the members with issues learn to avoid one another.

Rather than say all conflict is bad, I think that sometimes it does serve a purpose.  Sometimes greater truths and knowledge arise out of arguements.  When it gets too personal or off target, it needs to be reigned in. But even conflict is EMOTION, something I never see on ToT.  People are passionate about this game and hobby, and on ocassion I like to see that passion lead to bigger things.  I just don't get that vibe from ToT in any way whatsoever.

In contrast the Acaeum wiki is a much more informal and loose endeavor, and is not run by 2-3 uber-collectors who supply 90% of the info.  I think there is room for both ToT and the wiki online, serving different functions.  I don't know why both can't exist and complement each other. Personally I love the Wiki and enjoy contributing, it's very easy and much more "down to earth" in tone and presentation.

I enjoy several things about the Acaeum that the ToT cannot (or will not) provide. Sense of community, anyone who has met up outside the forum or at Gencon can attest to that (there is a D&D game going on this weekend at my place with several Acaeum members).  Giving back to the community, how often has someone here just GIVEN an item to another member, or at the least cut them a deal?  I see this go on all the time.  The live chats on Fridays are just another example of the community.  Lastly, the info here is usually top notch, and I've seen complicated questions regarding the hobby dealt with quickly and efficiently.

I don't know why both forums (or all three, if you include the wiki) can't co-exist.  

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:08 pm 
 

Heh, I'd be a new face if I wasn't outbid on everything I was trying to win. ;) Stop paying so damn much for stuff and other people can have a chance!

Sorry, just felt like being an ass.


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:39 pm 
 

I like all the collecting sites, ToT, Acaeum (especially) and the Acaeum Wiki.  

lets not forget blackdougal's site the TSR archive

http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/

All these sites help promote the hobby and act as information sites for both new and veteran colectors.

The more sites the better IMHO. :D


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:36 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
The more sites the better IMHO. :D


Agreed. 8)


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:02 pm 
 

Speaking as someone who got a "private" invitation to ToT, Brian, I can honestly say I wasn't told not to tell anyone else about it, nor was I intent on keeping anyone else from knowing about it.  I just figured invites were going out left and right and it was only a matter of time before everyone showed up.  

I like ToT, in part because it's a place to mingle with some of the old names from this site who never come around here anymore, but I have a lot more fun here.  As a resource, ToT has some useful and valuable printing details that are lacking here, so I see it as a good supplement to the Acaeum.  

Sidenote:  does anyone remember who won the ST1 in the Jeff Perren benefit auction?  Might be worth keeping an eye on that one.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:18 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:I like all the collecting sites, ToT, Acaeum (especially) and the Acaeum Wiki.  

lets not forget blackdougal's site the TSR archive

http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/

All these sites help promote the hobby and act as information sites for both new and veteran colectors.

The more sites the better IMHO. :D


I completely agree, and the only thing I can add is that the "inner circle" did not become the valuation board.


Mike

  


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:18 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:I like all the collecting sites, ToT, Acaeum (especially) and the Acaeum Wiki.  

lets not forget blackdougal's site the TSR archive

http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/

All these sites help promote the hobby and act as information sites for both new and veteran colectors.

The more sites the better IMHO. :D


To reiterate in case it got missed in in Interesting Non-TSR items thread, I don't have an issue with ToT per say, nor do I have an issue with most of the people there save 1(or 2 now and that is really a totally seperate issue althogether completely unrelated to ToT).  I do have an issue though with people who decry something that goes on on one forum and then does the exact same thing on their own forum.

Also, I still firmly beleive that the whole ToT thing "going public" was handled extremely poorly.

chromaticknight wrote:
I completely agree, and the only thing I can add is that the "inner circle" did not become the valuation board.


Mike

Okay cool, I stand corrected about that. It was just my assumption that it did because of the time frames involved and how everything seemed to fit into to place as I had known it for the last 4 years or so.  

That said and to get to the point, Mike are you saying this "Inner Circle" board still exists here now and if so, who is part of it?


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Post Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:47 am 
 

The Inner Circle still exists, but I've kicked everyone out and now I'm the only member.

Foul

P.S.  chromaticknight is correct; the Inner Circle did not become the Valuation Board.  I don't remember when I removed the Inner Circle forum, but the formation of the Board was completely separate.  I think we've made the Board about as transparent as possible (and there's literally been 50 members of the Board over the past four years), so the accusation that there's secret character assassinations going on in there is ludicrous.  Kynan was even a Board member at one point, for chrissakes.

The Inner Circle was originally envisioned as a place for old acquaintances of mine from the newsgroup days to hang out.  It then kind of morphed into "people who had substantial collections".  After a while, it became clear that there wasn't any point to having such a forum, as it could be (rightly) construed as elitism.  There weren't many posts in there, and I don't recall any posts concerning individual people at all.  Most of the posts were just queries about who had what rare module; at least at the time, there were several collectors who didn't really want the public to know what they had, but didn't mind sharing that info with "established" collectors.

The incident with Mike Kuo: I let him into the Inner Circle forum because he asked.  Not sure why I did, but I suppose I didn't have any reason not to; he was a regular contributor to both the forums and main site.  Within a short time, Mike let several people know that there was an Inner Circle forum, and that maybe they should pester me for access, too.  One of those folks was Adam Shultz, who's now the admin of ToT.  After being asked several times by Adam for access, I became quite irritated with the whole deal, and decided to remove Mike from the IC (and it wasn't just that -- he'd been getting on my nerves for quite some time over other issues as well).  I removed Mike and sent him an apology, along with an explanation that adding him to the forum was a mistake (on my part) in the first place.  It was a bad situation all-in-all, and certainly motivated me to disband that forum shortly thereafter.

Mike and Adam immediately left The Acaeum and haven't posted since.  I don't have a problem with either of them, and both certainly contributed valuable information and ideas while they were here.  Their accounts are still active and both can return at any time.

The entire situation with ToT -- if there is a situation -- seems kind of silly.  It's run by a group of folks who are at the least disenchanted with this site, and at the most are openly hostile.  To each his own, and they're free to express their opinions as they see fit (even on this forum, if they so choose!).  Not a one of them has been "banned", and all still have active accounts here.  How they run their own forum is up to them; they obviously feel that strict moderation is the key to fostering a healthy and supportive online community.  I completely disagree, but that's that.

There's certainly room in the universe for more than one collectibles-oriented D&D site.  Especially ones that have a different focus, as all of them do.  There's even room for sites with overlapping info or goals, such as The Acaeum Wiki and ToT.  Believe it or not, the Wiki is completely a project run by the community, with no input from me.  I've given them server space, and that's about it.  All of that is already public knowledge, and can be found in the corresponding thread in the Distributed Projects forum.  I don't condone plagiarism, but assuming everyone's doing their own work, then they're free to pursue whatever they like, even if it overlaps this site or ToT.  If I, or if ToT, haven't covered a topic in enough detail to satisfy folks, then it's our problem.  Complaining about what others are doing to fill in that knowledge gap is entirely inappropriate and not in the spirit of capitalism at all.  Get off your duff and make a webpage if it bothers you that much.

OK, /rant.  

Foul

  

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Post Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:58 am 
 

Hi,

shows how much notice I take of stuff. I didn't even notice that a 'situation' was developing with ToT.  :(

Mind, I can't remember if I was in the "inner circle" or not either.   :roll:
If I was, it can't have been very interesting!  8O

I was on the Valuation board for a while. But that wasn't much fun (tho very worthy)

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Malc

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Post Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:20 pm 
 

Man, I remember the Inner Circle days; what a strange, heady time that was. The only bad part was having to cook for the whole group when it was your turn to host.

Wait ... that's my wife's knitting club. Shit. Never mind.

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