Upper Works in Shrink
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Post Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:32 pm 
 

Just received a copy of Upper Works in shrinkwrap. Ive picked up a couple of these sets now and this is the first one to arrive in shrinkwrap. Anyone else get theirs shrinkwrapped?

  

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Post Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:56 pm 
 

I don't believe its coming that way from the Trolls... did you buy it from them, or someone else?


[edit]

Asked Peter (the art and layout guy) and he says that he thinks they are going out in shrink now.


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Post Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:10 pm 
 

serleran wrote:I don't believe its coming that way from the Trolls... did you buy it from them, or someone else?


[edit]

Asked Peter (the art and layout guy) and he says that he thinks they are going out in shrink now.


The ones I bought from Troll Lords were not shrinkwrapped, the last few have been from FRPGames and they have been.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:49 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
The ones I bought from Troll Lords were not shrinkwrapped, the last few have been from FRPGames and they have been.


Got mine from FRPGames and it was SWed (course not anymore) :)

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:11 am 
 

That's probably the best step forward for TLG's product developement team, and it took an outsider to point it out. A lot of these arrive damaged because TLG won't shrinkwrap their products. You get the opportunity to put out one of the most significant releases of the decade, and are garaunteed a market for it. You get EGG to manage the whole product, bring on top notch artists, and then you stick it in a toilet roll card box, wrap the box in a piccie stuck on with Uhu, and ship it complete'y unprotected to the buyer. Go figure? TLG really shot themselves in the foot with the final presentation of the product there. Not really cut out for mass market yet, are they?


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:12 am 
 

They do keep the price down though.  This box set and contents would probably be $80 through someone else.

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:01 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:They do keep the price down though.  This box set and contents would probably be $80 through someone else.

ShaneG.


The retail is $44 (I believe) which is amazing for a 5 book box set. The retail on the big boxed sets from Goodman are in the $70 to $100 range. Then for some reason these Upper Works sets all seem to be %20 off to start with. If you're ordering a couple of things you can get free shipping.

So right now the Upper Works boxed set, which is unlikely to ever be reprinted, is going for the price of a hardcover rulebook.

How many of these were produced? 500 or a 1000?

  

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:47 pm 
 

That information is unlikely to be divulged. The Trolls don't like giving out the details for print run sizes. The only one I know for a fact is the C&C "Spartan 300" boxes; all others are pure guesses.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

serleran wrote:That information is unlikely to be divulged. The Trolls don't like giving out the details for print run sizes. The only one I know for a fact is the C&C "Spartan 300" boxes; all others are pure guesses.


Well 500 copies seems to be some kind of standard for wargaming boxed sets. GMT, Avalanche, LNL, all do 500 copy print runs. RPGs are a different kind of niche but other than counter sheets they have the same kind of production. Box, map sheets, booklets.

Just how much of a niche have RPGs become?

  

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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:21 pm 
 

IIRC it was written somewhere that they needed to ship 300 units into the distributor/reseller chain, so given the late release to distributors, and it's long track record of sales mail order since GenCon, I'd guess at more than 500 copies. I doubt they produced more than 1000, which puts it on a par with RAR (in print run size), and given RAR is available in PDF and still commands fairly high prices, all bodes well for CZ:UW.

That said, CZ:UW relies heavily on its pedigree. As far as content goes, there is much more gameplay in RAR. Writing of the two products is fairly well on a par. Both products have the destinction of being played and developed over decades, and that sort of dungeon crafting really makes all the difference when you compare it to something just dreamt up for the cash (aka DCC#51 Castle Whiterock). It is the experience of the writers/designers and the time they have lived with their dungeon that separates the legendary from the laxative.


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Post Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:04 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:IIRC it was written somewhere that they needed to ship 300 units into the distributor/reseller chain, so given the late release to distributors, and it's long track record of sales mail order since GenCon, I'd guess at more than 500 copies. I doubt they produced more than 1000, which puts it on a par with RAR (in print run size), and given RAR is available in PDF and still commands fairly high prices, all bodes well for CZ:UW.

That said, CZ:UW relies heavily on its pedigree. As far as content goes, there is much more gameplay in RAR. Writing of the two products is fairly well on a par. Both products have the destinction of being played and developed over decades, and that sort of dungeon crafting really makes all the difference when you compare it to something just dreamt up for the cash (aka DCC#51 Castle Whiterock). It is the experience of the writers/designers and the time they have lived with their dungeon that separates the legendary from the laxative.


Man you are down on DCC51!

I dont think it is on par with Upper Works and I dont have RaR yet to compare, but I am almost through the first book of Whiterock. It has some good ideas but lacks a certain depth that great adventures have always possessed. Im not familiar enough with 3rd Ed to say, but it seems rather sparse to take an adventuring group up a level for every level of the dungeon. Lots of side adventuring needed I would say, and Im looking to see what DCC adventures would fit in well. One of the more intriguing things Ive worked into it is to place the Judges Guild Dark Tower adventure in the 3rd level of the DCC Dungeon. There is a perfect place for it there.

But as for print runs, I'm just not sure of the state of the RPG industry. It does seem that a 1000 copy print run is a big deal nowadays. RaR was a 1000, Upper Works... could it be only 500, and DCC#51 is a monster in size and weight regardless of what anyone thinks of its quality.

There may be a lull in collecting RPGs at some time but I am sure that there will be a niche of die hard collectors around even after we are dead and gone. My Mom was reading comics in '39 and had the first superman ( 2 copies), first Batman, and a stack of others which she carted down and turned in at a WWII paper drive. Who would have believed that Comic Books would be collected and sought after 70 years laters. My own childhood toys, GIJoes, Action Man with his costumes, Marx Playsets, all of them are big collectables today.

This Upper Works boxed set is something. It immediately has history to it. A quarter century curse that has followed its production, Castle Greyhawk is haunted. This is the Dune RPG, or RaR now being sold at a %20 discount or the cost of taking the family out to the movies (if you  have a small family).  

This set is here today, but gone, maybe not tomorrow, but soon after. (And I'd say the same about DCC#51 but it has a %50 discount).

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:25 am 
 

It is that 'sense of history' as you put it that deliniates the excellent from the mundane. A dungeon (and I use that word loosely) that has grown out of adventuring, writing and rewriting by the DM, and been hacked and reassembled over decades of gameplay by dozens of different adventuring parties, takes on a particular quality in its crafting and design. The stuff that doesn't work, or kills the gameplay, is written out through hours of experience. The 'fluff' that is placed there in the beginning molds itself into a solid backstory that is worked and reworked until it provides that 'sense of history' about it, and the ballance of lethal danger vs. the need to progress at a steady pace is crafted to an almost perfect equilibrium.

These are things you just cannot fake, regardless of how much money you want, how much you're willing to scribble, or how much money you're willing to throw at a project.

For that reason alone, Castle Whiterock just does not have what Rappan Athuk Reloaded and Castle Zagyg possess. DCC#51 may well have the benefit of being of the DCC line, and the die hard collector will always want to fill a hole in his collection, so it's demand in the future is fairly well established. Whilest it's not likely to drop to Worlds Largest Dungeon status in the supply/demand scale of things (here the stench of effluence keeps even the curious from venturing too close to the rotting carcus of the writers ego), Whiterock will likely remain a middle ground piece of modern writing, with no great demand or supply problem (after all there is the PDF free on Torrent), whilst Castle Zagyg and Rappan Athuk will occupy the top of the food chain by virtue of their history and pedigree, and the sheer ability of the writing to convey that to the reader.

And it's not just a writing issue. There is a design quality to the mapwork, the way areas relate to one another. How parties move about the map, how areas of ativity and challange relate and influence one another, and what feel that gives the players as they experience it. These are things you either understand how to create or you do not. If you have the chance to play any of these boxed sets, you will get a feel for what is great and what is not, and the more you DM these types of megadungeon campaigns, the more you will be able to see these qualities in their mapwork.

It is a very large and subtle subject to try to tackle. Many people have tried and some have scratched the surface, but no-one has to it justice. It is a knowledge that is possessed by some of the great dungeon crafters, comes out in their work, but never really explained anywhere.

As regards print run size, I would be surprised if it were as low as 500 copies. But equally as surprised if it were as high as 1000. TLG I understand printed their own product in house, so they had the option of printing as many or as few as they required at any one point (lots of small print runs as opposed to one large order). Add to that the documented problems with the box supplier (the only documented external influence in compiling the product) where they struggled and supported him through troubled times, and I suspect you have again, a few part/small shipments of boxes at a time as opposed to one large order of 500 units. Allowing for scrap in both processed, and damage of the odd box before it hit the point of assembly, and I would imagine you're looking at an off number that makes absolutely no sence to anyone, and can probably only be guessed at by TLG. Say 686, or maybe 712. Who knows?


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:14 am 
 

Honestly I dont believe it takes years or massive amounts of play testing to create a classic adventure, although that is sure to help. It does take a talent for it, something Gygax had especially the early adventures where he was creating with D&D or AD&D as the rule system, the physics of the game world which he easily manipulated.

There is talent in DCC51 though it feels, so far, to be a bit raw and rushed. The set lacks a good deal of detail in some respects, but has a very good overall structure. They tried to make sense of the whole instead of leaving it as a group of uncombined or poorly related parts.

Each level is on its on a fairly small adventure (so far, I've only just about finished the first book) and I cant see how a group of characters could possible gain a level for each dungeon level just by running DCC#51 as is. But so far these are decent adventures and I would put them well above medium. It seems like a fun dungeon, a little overly ambitious and needing additions by a DM, but a good basis for campaigning.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:09 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:It is that 'sense of history' as you put it that deliniates the excellent from the mundane. A dungeon (and I use that word loosely) that has grown out of adventuring, writing and rewriting by the DM, and been hacked and reassembled over decades of gameplay by dozens of different adventuring parties, takes on a particular quality in its crafting and design. The stuff that doesn't work, or kills the gameplay, is written out through hours of experience. The 'fluff' that is placed there in the beginning molds itself into a solid backstory that is worked and reworked until it provides that 'sense of history' about it, and the ballance of lethal danger vs. the need to progress at a steady pace is crafted to an almost perfect equilibrium.

These are things you just cannot fake, regardless of how much money you want, how much you're willing to scribble, or how much money you're willing to throw at a project.

For that reason alone, Castle Whiterock just does not have what Rappan Athuk Reloaded and Castle Zagyg possess. DCC#51 may well have the benefit of being of the DCC line, and the die hard collector will always want to fill a hole in his collection, so it's demand in the future is fairly well established. Whilest it's not likely to drop to Worlds Largest Dungeon status in the supply/demand scale of things (here the stench of effluence keeps even the curious from venturing too close to the rotting carcus of the writers ego), Whiterock will likely remain a middle ground piece of modern writing, with no great demand or supply problem (after all there is the PDF free on Torrent), whilst Castle Zagyg and Rappan Athuk will occupy the top of the food chain by virtue of their history and pedigree, and the sheer ability of the writing to convey that to the reader.

And it's not just a writing issue. There is a design quality to the mapwork, the way areas relate to one another. How parties move about the map, how areas of ativity and challange relate and influence one another, and what feel that gives the players as they experience it. These are things you either understand how to create or you do not. If you have the chance to play any of these boxed sets, you will get a feel for what is great and what is not, and the more you DM these types of megadungeon campaigns, the more you will be able to see these qualities in their mapwork.

It is a very large and subtle subject to try to tackle. Many people have tried and some have scratched the surface, but no-one has to it justice. It is a knowledge that is possessed by some of the great dungeon crafters, comes out in their work, but never really explained anywhere.


Very good summation, Ian.  I think the word you are looking for is "organic". The best of the published super-dungeon crawls (Ruins of Undermountain, Castle Zagyg, RAR, even T1-4 to an extent) have this in abundance.  The feel that not only have adventurers walked these passageways, but that their blood and guys are still stained into the dim crevices along with the assorted vermin.  The maps were obviously adjusted, redrawn, and altered over time as were the creatures, traps and encounters.

The worst of these (think Largest Dungeon in the World) are very obviously souless, bloodless creations and have never known the true tred of an adventurer's foot....product from start to finish. Soul-Less is the word I would use to describe this type of creation.

I would put Castle Whiterock somewhere in the middle.  Not quite authentic enough or the pedigree enough to make ita Ruins of Undermountain or CZ,   but not the entirely soul-less creation  of LDITW.

CW has potential, though.  As Jason has pointed out, it has a rushed, unfinished feeling, along with not quite enough detail to make it absolutely "authentic" an experience as one would want. Again as Jason said the structure is good.  Think of CW as a house you have just bought, brand new, with some of the rooms furnished, some not, but with a bare cupboard, refrigerator, and closets.  Lots of work to be done to make it "livable", but the framework is all in place.

Frankly, to me, while enjoying CW, I had the feeling I was looking at a "mash up" of 15 strung together adventures rather than one long, semi-coherent super-crawl. Now, for the money, this is great value.  And I think a decent DM could do well with this. But when compared to Ruins of Undermountain, Rappan AThuk Reloaded, or Castle Zagyg (which I'm not even finished reading yet), there is just that little "something", as Ian put it, missing enough to make CW a great "might have been" rather than an instant classic.

While reading through CW, I thought of a perfect comparison: The Night Below boxed set. I ran a campaign through that several years ago, and while we had an incredible time, it too had that sort of unfinished, rushed, not actually authentic feel of several set encounters strung together into one entire finished product.  The main give-away in products like CW and NB is the "every road leads to Rome" feel of the maps and the adventure itself....all paths point to one final, inevitable conclusion, rather than there being many, perhaps even dozens, of ways to traverse in the true classic designs (including tunnel, passages and caverns leading off to gods know what...think the underdark map of the classic D-series).  

The closest I can come: in the ones that come up a little short, it is the destination that is paramount, and nothing along the way must ultimately distract from the goal.  In the true greats, it's the journey not the destination that is important, because the journey is the REAL adventure!

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:02 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
Very good summation, Ian.  I think the word you are looking for is "organic". The best of the published super-dungeon crawls (Ruins of Undermountain, Castle Zagyg, RAR, even T1-4 to an extent) have this in abundance.  The feel that not only have adventurers walked these passageways, but that their blood and guys are still stained into the dim crevices along with the assorted vermin.  The maps were obviously adjusted, redrawn, and altered over time as were the creatures, traps and encounters.

The worst of these (think Largest Dungeon in the World) are very obviously souless, bloodless creations and have never known the true tred of an adventurer's foot....product from start to finish. Soul-Less is the word I would use to describe this type of creation.

I would put Castle Whiterock somewhere in the middle.  Not quite authentic enough or the pedigree enough to make ita Ruins of Undermountain or CZ,   but not the entirely soul-less creation  of LDITW.

CW has potential, though.  As Jason has pointed out, it has a rushed, unfinished feeling, along with not quite enough detail to make it absolutely "authentic" an experience as one would want. Again as Jason said the structure is good.  Think of CW as a house you have just bought, brand new, with some of the rooms furnished, some not, but with a bare cupboard, refrigerator, and closets.  Lots of work to be done to make it "livable", but the framework is all in place.

Frankly, to me, while enjoying CW, I had the feeling I was looking at a "mash up" of 15 strung together adventures rather than one long, semi-coherent super-crawl. Now, for the money, this is great value.  And I think a decent DM could do well with this. But when compared to Ruins of Undermountain, Rappan AThuk Reloaded, or Castle Zagyg (which I'm not even finished reading yet), there is just that little "something", as Ian put it, missing enough to make CW a great "might have been" rather than an instant classic.

While reading through CW, I thought of a perfect comparison: The Night Below boxed set. I ran a campaign through that several years ago, and while we had an incredible time, it too had that sort of unfinished, rushed, not actually authentic feel of several set encounters strung together into one entire finished product.  The main give-away in products like CW and NB is the "every road leads to Rome" feel of the maps and the adventure itself....all paths point to one final, inevitable conclusion, rather than there being many, perhaps even dozens, of ways to traverse in the true classic designs (including tunnel, passages and caverns leading off to gods know what...think the underdark map of the classic D-series).  

The closest I can come: in the ones that come up a little short, it is the destination that is paramount, and nothing along the way must ultimately distract from the goal.  In the true greats, it's the journey not the destination that is important, because the journey is the REAL adventure!

Mike B.


The one thing with Night Below is that I think you could mesh it very easily with the T1-4, A1-4, and GDQ1-7. As those supermodules were strung together with rather poor and hasty connecting themes and no real additions to the adventures Night Below fit in rather nicely in style and theme, and im rather fond of Sargents works.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:08 pm 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:
The one thing with Night Below is that I think you could mesh it very easily with the T1-4, A1-4, and GDQ1-7. As those supermodules were strung together with rather poor and hasty connecting themes and no real additions to the adventures Night Below fit in rather nicely in style and theme, and im rather fond of Sargents works.


Ironically, Jason, In my campaign the entrance to the underdark in Night Below was on the final level of T1-4....!

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:42 pm 
 

To my mind, hashing together a stack of adventure modules, trying to balance their difficulty levels, trying to fudge a storyline or loose connecting concept, packing it out with fluff and sticking a cherry on top (Oops! ... castle on top), just doesn't make for a mega-dungeon campaign environment. The ones that work, are the ones that were born that way. These last minute Frankenstein money grabs just don't cut it when you get down to the substance of the product. It's the difference between pulp fiction and literature. There is a place for both and many a writer makes money churning out book after book, but the true test of time and mettle comes from writing talent and staying power.

Can you really DM CW more than once?
It's a damn shame we won't see the rest of CZ in it's EGG conceived format.

Incidentally, Cougarinard has these up for £24.95 on eBay. A damned good price for the UK when you factor in the cost of trying to get these shipped over from The States. And I've still to see them appear in any UK stores or in NKG.


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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:30 pm 
 

Great thread!  I'm getting a lot from the megadungeon comparisons and your different takes on DCC 51, CZ, & Rappan Athuk.  Especially comparing them against D1&2 or ToEE.  Happy memories.

Query:  I own the original three Rappan Athuk modules.  Any substantial difference between RAR and RA 1, 2, & 3?  I know they redrew the maps for parts 1 & 2 and put it in a (very handsome) box, but what else is new?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:35 pm 
 

stumbling tiger wrote:Great thread!  I'm getting a lot from the megadungeon comparisons and your different takes on DCC 51, CZ, & Rappan Athuk.  Especially comparing them against D1&2 or ToEE.  Happy memories.

Query:  I own the original three Rappan Athuk modules.  Any substantial difference between RAR and RA 1, 2, & 3?  I know they redrew the maps for parts 1 & 2 and put it in a (very handsome) box, but what else is new?


A little from their blurb: "Along with many new levels and a massive wilderness expansion, all updated for the revised rules. Not just a rework, this expanded version contains tons of new material, detailing 36 dungeon levels and dozens of wilderness areas."
So almost twice the size of all the original modules.

And some insider news (since not many read the Necromancer Games forums) but Slumbering Tsar: adventures set in around the ancient, ruined temple-city of Orcus first introduced in R1: Rappan Athuk-The Dungeon of Graves: The Upper Levels may stay 3.5/Pathfinder (but nothing more then that other then speculation/hope after Clark's post)

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:10 am 
 

The PDF is one of my favourites. Probably the best investment I made at RPGNow. The boxed set is worth buying, but net worth playing, because it loses half it's value (about $60-80) once it's in played condition. So if you can afford $150 on a new copy, go for it, either that or but the PDF and/or wait for a used copy to pop up on eBay.


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