serleran wrote:I don't believe its coming that way from the Trolls... did you buy it from them, or someone else?[edit]Asked Peter (the art and layout guy) and he says that he thinks they are going out in shrink now.
JasonZavoda wrote:The ones I bought from Troll Lords were not shrinkwrapped, the last few have been from FRPGames and they have been.
Plaag wrote:They do keep the price down though. This box set and contents would probably be $80 through someone else.ShaneG.
serleran wrote:That information is unlikely to be divulged. The Trolls don't like giving out the details for print run sizes. The only one I know for a fact is the C&C "Spartan 300" boxes; all others are pure guesses.
mbassoc2003 wrote:IIRC it was written somewhere that they needed to ship 300 units into the distributor/reseller chain, so given the late release to distributors, and it's long track record of sales mail order since GenCon, I'd guess at more than 500 copies. I doubt they produced more than 1000, which puts it on a par with RAR (in print run size), and given RAR is available in PDF and still commands fairly high prices, all bodes well for CZ:UW.That said, CZ:UW relies heavily on its pedigree. As far as content goes, there is much more gameplay in RAR. Writing of the two products is fairly well on a par. Both products have the destinction of being played and developed over decades, and that sort of dungeon crafting really makes all the difference when you compare it to something just dreamt up for the cash (aka DCC#51 Castle Whiterock). It is the experience of the writers/designers and the time they have lived with their dungeon that separates the legendary from the laxative.
mbassoc2003 wrote:It is that 'sense of history' as you put it that deliniates the excellent from the mundane. A dungeon (and I use that word loosely) that has grown out of adventuring, writing and rewriting by the DM, and been hacked and reassembled over decades of gameplay by dozens of different adventuring parties, takes on a particular quality in its crafting and design. The stuff that doesn't work, or kills the gameplay, is written out through hours of experience. The 'fluff' that is placed there in the beginning molds itself into a solid backstory that is worked and reworked until it provides that 'sense of history' about it, and the ballance of lethal danger vs. the need to progress at a steady pace is crafted to an almost perfect equilibrium.These are things you just cannot fake, regardless of how much money you want, how much you're willing to scribble, or how much money you're willing to throw at a project.For that reason alone, Castle Whiterock just does not have what Rappan Athuk Reloaded and Castle Zagyg possess. DCC#51 may well have the benefit of being of the DCC line, and the die hard collector will always want to fill a hole in his collection, so it's demand in the future is fairly well established. Whilest it's not likely to drop to Worlds Largest Dungeon status in the supply/demand scale of things (here the stench of effluence keeps even the curious from venturing too close to the rotting carcus of the writers ego), Whiterock will likely remain a middle ground piece of modern writing, with no great demand or supply problem (after all there is the PDF free on Torrent), whilst Castle Zagyg and Rappan Athuk will occupy the top of the food chain by virtue of their history and pedigree, and the sheer ability of the writing to convey that to the reader.And it's not just a writing issue. There is a design quality to the mapwork, the way areas relate to one another. How parties move about the map, how areas of ativity and challange relate and influence one another, and what feel that gives the players as they experience it. These are things you either understand how to create or you do not. If you have the chance to play any of these boxed sets, you will get a feel for what is great and what is not, and the more you DM these types of megadungeon campaigns, the more you will be able to see these qualities in their mapwork.It is a very large and subtle subject to try to tackle. Many people have tried and some have scratched the surface, but no-one has to it justice. It is a knowledge that is possessed by some of the great dungeon crafters, comes out in their work, but never really explained anywhere.
Badmike wrote:Very good summation, Ian. I think the word you are looking for is "organic". The best of the published super-dungeon crawls (Ruins of Undermountain, Castle Zagyg, RAR, even T1-4 to an extent) have this in abundance. The feel that not only have adventurers walked these passageways, but that their blood and guys are still stained into the dim crevices along with the assorted vermin. The maps were obviously adjusted, redrawn, and altered over time as were the creatures, traps and encounters.The worst of these (think Largest Dungeon in the World) are very obviously souless, bloodless creations and have never known the true tred of an adventurer's foot....product from start to finish. Soul-Less is the word I would use to describe this type of creation.I would put Castle Whiterock somewhere in the middle. Not quite authentic enough or the pedigree enough to make ita Ruins of Undermountain or CZ, but not the entirely soul-less creation of LDITW. CW has potential, though. As Jason has pointed out, it has a rushed, unfinished feeling, along with not quite enough detail to make it absolutely "authentic" an experience as one would want. Again as Jason said the structure is good. Think of CW as a house you have just bought, brand new, with some of the rooms furnished, some not, but with a bare cupboard, refrigerator, and closets. Lots of work to be done to make it "livable", but the framework is all in place.Frankly, to me, while enjoying CW, I had the feeling I was looking at a "mash up" of 15 strung together adventures rather than one long, semi-coherent super-crawl. Now, for the money, this is great value. And I think a decent DM could do well with this. But when compared to Ruins of Undermountain, Rappan AThuk Reloaded, or Castle Zagyg (which I'm not even finished reading yet), there is just that little "something", as Ian put it, missing enough to make CW a great "might have been" rather than an instant classic.While reading through CW, I thought of a perfect comparison: The Night Below boxed set. I ran a campaign through that several years ago, and while we had an incredible time, it too had that sort of unfinished, rushed, not actually authentic feel of several set encounters strung together into one entire finished product. The main give-away in products like CW and NB is the "every road leads to Rome" feel of the maps and the adventure itself....all paths point to one final, inevitable conclusion, rather than there being many, perhaps even dozens, of ways to traverse in the true classic designs (including tunnel, passages and caverns leading off to gods know what...think the underdark map of the classic D-series). The closest I can come: in the ones that come up a little short, it is the destination that is paramount, and nothing along the way must ultimately distract from the goal. In the true greats, it's the journey not the destination that is important, because the journey is the REAL adventure!Mike B.
JasonZavoda wrote:The one thing with Night Below is that I think you could mesh it very easily with the T1-4, A1-4, and GDQ1-7. As those supermodules were strung together with rather poor and hasty connecting themes and no real additions to the adventures Night Below fit in rather nicely in style and theme, and im rather fond of Sargents works.