Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:33 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Neither are arguing that their actions are 'right' or 'legal', only that they believe them to be morally just when measured against their own value systems, and that they have the right under the US Constitution to exersize their own set of values and face any consequences for those actions should they emerge.

At least that's what I take from what Mike and Doug are saying.


ScketreWhisp® wrote:mbassoc2003 (or Ian)... exactly...


ScketreWhisp® wrote:It is wrong, period, no if, ans, or buts about it.


So let me get this straight...

1) Doug has the constitutional right to do the morally just thing, as defined under his system of values... I'm not finding this is the U.S. Constitution, but let's leave that for another time.

2) Doug has decided to disregard his own value system (see quote #3 above) and do the "wrong" thing, intentionally breaching copyright law, by reprinting a printed work the rights to which belong to someone else, in the hope he doesn't get called on it.

:roll:

Fair enough. I feel like I've beaten my head against a brick wall.

EDIT: Can I change my username to ScketreWhisp (without the ®) now :)? I guess I'd get caught fairly quickly...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:42 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:
So let me get this straight...

1) Doug has the constitutional right to do the morally just thing, as defined under his system of values... I'm not finding this is the U.S. Constitution, but let's leave that for another time.

2) Doug has decided to disregard his own value system (see quote #3 above) and do the "wrong" thing, intentionally breaching copyright law, by reprinting a printed work the rights to which belong to someone else, in the hope he doesn't get called on it.

:roll:

Fair enough. I feel like I've beaten my head against a brick wall.

EDIT: Can I change my username to ScketreWhisp (without the ®) now :)? I guess I'd get caught fairly quickly...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:48 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
Please do not be bitter about something that doesn't matter  :?


When you're right, you're right. I'm not really bitter, just a bit dismayed.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:51 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma

1) Everyone does what they feel is okay, regardless of the laws... those that rob stores rob stores with no regard to the law, they apparently don't find it morally wrong... the store has money, they want it, they take it... it's wrong but they do it, there is a risk but they do it... I am sure many post on this forum when at work thus being paid for non working time, reason enough to get fired, but they do it anyway ... it's not a Constitutional right by any means, never said it was...

2) You misunderstood... quote # 3 is stating that I was wrong.. yes, but I did not do it intentionally hoping not to get caught. I did it hoping my eventual answer would be like what I got from Wee Warriors... I knew I was taking a chance at being told "no".. if WotC had said "no" sometime during my first 3 emails, we would not be having this conversation, I would have never printed it... if you don't understand that, I can't help you.

Again, I won't print anything again without someone's permission, I have said this numerous times. My bad for thinking someone like WotC wouldn't let some Con print 100 copies of something... I still don't understand why they said "no" and no one will convince me why they said "no", they were getting FREE money for it and still said no... sorry if you want to send me FREE money, I will always say yes....

actually I want money for all these "quotes" from my posts... all these posts are copyrighted by my hand has I type them... I know who you are !

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:57 pm 
 

I get it.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:44 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:mbassoc2003 (or Ian)... exactly...

I speed every day of my life... I drive 77 on the highway, always have since I was 16... the speed feels right to me when I am moving down a highway.. I don't even have to look at the speedometer... when I get to the right speed and look down, it's 77 ... just how it is.

If/When I get pulled over, the police officer (and I use to be a Police officer in the 80's) he always asks how fast I was going, I always tell them 77 ... just right me a ticket and let me be on my way, I'll pay it as soon as I get home... I have even gotten 2 tickets in the same day on the same highway about an hour apart. I know there is a risk, and I have no problem paying the price when I get caught.

I haven't got a speeding ticket since about 1988 so obviously my speed isn't a problem for most police officers since I have passed many either driving or sitting on the road side over the years and no ticket. But in 1988 is when I got the 2 in the same day...

I know the rules and I know the price for breaking them if I take the risk.


He does drive like a maniac.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:52 pm 
 

*bump* but also interested if Basil has been in contact anymore Ian..??


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:28 am 
 

ashmire13 wrote:*bump* but also interested if Basil has been in contact anymore Ian..??

Nope. Nada. Not a peep out of him. I have e-mailed and PMed him just to be sure he has my e-mail address though.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:03 am 
 

Just thought I'd give this a quarterly *bump*


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm 
 

I picked up TS#1 from Tadashi last week, and was quite pleased by the quality of its contents.

Ian:  have you had any luck with putting together an archive of this (not that you've had much time to focus on such things lately...)?  

If anyone has reading copies of the rest of the issues (I only have #1) that they'd like to trade, I'm definitely interested :D  I also understand (from reading some older discussions herein) that the TS issues often had various extras provided with each issue.  Tadashi's had the overground scenario for the Tomb of Qadir included, but is there an index or other listing that details all of the various bits and bobs likely to go missing that should be included with each complete issue?


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Post Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:54 am 
 

grodog wrote in Ian's Tortured Souls collection:I picked up TS#1 from Tadashi last week, and was quite pleased by the quality of its contents.

Ian:  have you had any luck with putting together an archive of this (not that you've had much time to focus on such things lately...)?  

If anyone has reading copies of the rest of the issues (I only have #1) that they'd like to trade, I'm definitely interested :D  I also understand (from reading some older discussions herein) that the TS issues often had various extras provided with each issue.  Tadashi's had the overground scenario for the Tomb of Qadir included, but is there an index or other listing that details all of the various bits and bobs likely to go missing that should be included with each complete issue?


I have two later ones you can have Allan. ... They are later copies and missing the pull-outs. Send me your address (Think I did have it once but have almost certaibnly lost it by now) and I can post them over.  :D


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:09 pm 
 

State of Play as of April '14 . . .
From memory. The preceding thread may be more specific. . . .

Over the past five years I have been in touch, fleetingly, with both Alan Hinkling and Basil Barrett, believed to be among the prime movers behind publishers Beast Enterprises Limited, as well as a couple of the leading artists, none of whom are involved in the industry any longer (outside of tertiary hobby interests). I have not been able to contact Simon Forrest.

Of those I contacted, the only party interested in enforcing any latent copyright claim to the materials published by Beast Enterprises Limited, was Basil Barrett, and to that end, his only expressed concern was that he had prior sold the copyright to the Complete Dungeon Master Series material to Games Workshop for their Warhammer RPG.

In anticipation of a possible product, I did register BeastEntz.com and BeastEntz.co.uk for a few years, but for obvious reasons, let them laps.

We did explore the possibility of consent to republish, but there appeared to be no real desire or interest there, so the project faltered in 2011.

...

Now, enforcement of copyright is a much greyer area. Copyright was held, and was stated as being held, by the entity Beast Enterprises Limited. No copyright is ever claimed by any individual, and the entity Beast Enterprises Limited does not appear to have ever existed as a bona fide legal entity in the UK. Nor was there ever any declared sole trader operating under that name. So the copyright holder is going to have a hard time establishing their right to enforce copyright of a product that have in writing been bestowed upon another entity and not retained by themselves.

Copyright of the magazines themselves have now lapsed. The only claims that can now be made, were they to be republished, would be potential breach of copyright of the materials directly referencing materials later sold to Games Workshop, potential breach of copyright of artworks by identifiable artists (as their signature on artwork is presumed to be a statement of copyright in the absence of a declaration otherwise), or a claim by a third party author of a breach of copyright claiming they did not know their copyright had been usurped by the operators of Beast Enterprises Limited.

All of which at most could result in a cease and desist letter, as proving damages and quantifying those damages credibly in a court of law is next to impossible.

...

In regard to the product itself, I had sourced a manufacturer in the UK who screen prints DVDs. I had floated the idea with one of the artists for original artwork in keeping with original feel of the magazine, I had tried to enter into discussions with Basil Barrett to establish who, if anyone, owned copyright of the abandoned magazine materials, and I had had similar discussions with Alan Hinkling.

What is certain is this...

The materials in the CDM Series is out of bounds. Yes it is wonderfully complementary, and there is the unpublished CDM5 out there in various forms (at least three versions of the manuscript I am aware of of varying lengths and completeness), but practically the entirety of that campaign in under the control of Games Workshop.

Tortured Souls #1 and #2 (the fanzine) is also a no go area without permission from BB and/or SF.

Also, there is a little bifold flyer that was released somewhere around the issue of Tortured Souls! 3 which is a direct bridge between TS! and CDM1, and so would probably be antagonistic to Games Workshop.

That leaves TS! 1-12 and the Zhalindor map.

Currently I have very high quality PDFs of everything except TS#2 the fanzine, and still holding out for a reasonable chance at pushing a digital project ahead with the blessings of Basil Barrett, or greater solidity in UK Copyright Law. Alternatively, a publisher in a non-copyright jurisdiction who is happy to publish and be damned.

With people asking for many years now, a product is likely to come to market whether Basil likes it or not. The question he really needs to ask himself is whether he wishes to profit fairly by it, or expend his time and effort fighting the onset of the internet age.

...

That's how I see it.

As with Paul Vernon (Starstone), whenever there is a author who is happy to explore the community's interest in his past works, I will do everything to assist in publishing, be that digitising and/or transferring data to modern DTP, proofreading or whatever. But abandoned works that have lapsed copyright and a definite and legitimate interest in the collector and research communities are a different matter. In these cases I tend to side with Badmike etal.

I'd like to see a digital archive published, ideally with the original publisher's blessing.  However, the original copyright holder no longer exists, and the author who now lays claim to copyright, has no interest in publishing. I suspect this is likely due to the potential conflict with previous contactual arrangements with GW, the clear case that he cannot lay claim to all the materials copyright, and the virtual guarantee that any enterprise is likely to be a labour with little return, or only marginal profit, hardly worth his time or effort.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.


Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:01 pm 
 

I hope you keep at it, Ian. Looks like someday things will come together.  I agree anything even remotely GW related would be a bear to try and publish no matter what the circumstances, they are not shy about suing for any reason, legit or not.

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:20 pm 
 

Badmike wrote in Ian's Tortured Souls collection:I hope you keep at it, Ian. Looks like someday things will come together.  I agree anything even remotely GW related would be a bear to try and publish no matter what the circumstances, they are not shy about suing for any reason, legit or not.

Mike B.


Were a backstreet Chinese DVD manufacturer to become aware of the potential market for a small DVD run, there is little anyone could do to pursue a legal challenge to its distribution. If the US government cannot stop the Chinese manufacturing Silver Dollars, and Nike cannot stop trainers hitting the streets, I'd like to see a part claimant to copyright of a lapsed magazine sue the publisher of a DVD. For that matter, there seems no reason to believe Games Workshop would have any more success preventing CDM1-5 being released.

One day authors and publishers with understand the mistake the music industry made in fighting online distribution, and step into the 21st century. Until then they are destined to be marginalised and lose revenue and influence.


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:20 pm 
 

Would anyone who's seen the unpublished CDM5 comment on how faithful the Heart of Chaos version is?


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:37 pm 
 

Thunderdave wrote in Ian's Tortured Souls collection:Would anyone who's seen the unpublished CDM5 comment on how faithful the Heart of Chaos version is?


Completely unrelated work done by a different author who did not have access to any aspect of the original.

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:46 pm 
 

Thanks for the quick reply... a shame then.


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Post Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:52 am 
 

Ian, I would love to see a Tortured Souls DVD one day. I wish you luck.

mbassoc2003 wrote in Ian's Tortured Souls collection:State of Play as of April '14 . . .
As with Paul Vernon (Starstone), whenever there is a author who is happy to explore the community's interest in his past works, I will do everything to assist in publishing, be that digitising and/or transferring data to modern DTP, proofreading or whatever.


Was there an electronic version of Starstone?  I have a copy but would like a PDF!

  
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