Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:35 pm 
 

No - I read that as; Doug believes he has the right to weight up the pros and cons of infringing copyright, to make his own moral decisions, market a product and take his chances with any repocussions. I see that as what Doug is saying here. He is exerting his right to bring his own value system to the table, make his own decisions and face those consequences in the full knowledge and with full honesty for what he choses to do.

He leaves it up to the buyer to make their own mind up, whether or not they wish to avail themselves of an offered reprint or not.

And what Mike is pointing out is, the buyer is neither committing a crime by buying a copy, nor is the buyer encouraging Doug to infringe IP by buying the product. Mike is pointing out that Doug is a free agent exercising freedom of choice having conducted his own research and making his own moral stand, and that has no bearing or weight in his, Mikes, decision to buy a product.

Neither are arguing that their actions are 'right' or 'legal', only that they believe them to be morally just when measured against their own value systems, and that they have the right under the US Constitution to exersize their own set of values and face any consequences for those actions should they emerge.

At least that's what I take from what Mike and Doug are saying.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:46 pm 
 

I wasn't talking about getting caught... that's why I specifically mentioned that. And I am also not talking about ethics either.

It is wrong, period, no if, ans, or buts about it.

I am saying that some things you will not get in trouble for unless someone presses charges...

If someone downloaded and printed pirated PDFs of TSRs products and sold them to friends for $1.00 each, I won't buy them knowing they are probably not legal... but I won't be the one calling WotC since I don't really care either way. Someone wants to let WotC know about it WotC doesn't do anything about it, then I might buy some at that time knowing that WotC knows and apparently doesn't care.

That person doing it knows there is a risk, and thus can take that risk since they are the one's going to pay the price if WotC presses it.

Once WotC is notified, and in turn WotC doesn't follow up with a D&C or something to show they do not approve, then they have given consent at that point and I'd have no problem buying them... so I think WotC would take the time to say "no" as they at least took the time to eventually tell me "no".

As far as it being "okay" with me, it's "okay" with e that you do anything you like, legal or illegal. If it doesn't involve me, I really don't care too much.

It is wrong to shoot fireworks inside the city limits... if the police see you, you get a ticket. I don't call the police when kids do it since I don't care UNLESS they catch my house on fire... then I will turn them in... so the kids can have fun and shoot off fireworks in my neighborhood if they are careful... at least I won't tell... it's wrong, they broke the law but I also do not tell them it's okay to do either. They make that choice on their own.

You can rob a store for all I care, but if I am in the store you choose to rob and I feel threatened, then I might pull my gun and shoot you... you took the risk, you know people in Texas can have a carry permit and thus someone else in the store could be armed... take the chance, it's your life to spend it how you like, the police might catch you, you might get off scot free and more power to you.

I took a chance, printed some GT copies, didn't like the outcome, decided not to do it again... I never said is was legal or right to do, I was hoping WotC would be like Wee Warriors and not care, I was wrong, so I moved on.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:54 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:...downloaded and printed out pirated .pdfs of the entire TSR catalog and distributed copies to their friends for $1 apiece, because the likelihood of WotC pressing charges in negligible.

Less likely than for those people distributing the .pdfs in the first place, perhaps, since those are relatively "easy game"?

ScketreWhisp® wrote:I was hoping WotC would be like Wee Warriors and not care...

WotC clearly "cared" enough to pursue "easy game", as was well known; q.v. http://diceofdoom.com/blog/2009/10/wiza ... ment-case/

Anyhow...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:57 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 (or Ian)... exactly...

I speed every day of my life... I drive 77 on the highway, always have since I was 16... the speed feels right to me when I am moving down a highway.. I don't even have to look at the speedometer... when I get to the right speed and look down, it's 77 ... just how it is.

If/When I get pulled over, the police officer (and I use to be a Police officer in the 80's) he always asks how fast I was going, I always tell them 77 ... just right me a ticket and let me be on my way, I'll pay it as soon as I get home... I have even gotten 2 tickets in the same day on the same highway about an hour apart. I know there is a risk, and I have no problem paying the price when I get caught.

I haven't got a speeding ticket since about 1988 so obviously my speed isn't a problem for most police officers since I have passed many either driving or sitting on the road side over the years and no ticket. But in 1988 is when I got the 2 in the same day...

I know the rules and I know the price for breaking them if I take the risk.

I weigh the risk and decide if I can live with it, in the case of the GTs, I figured it would be okay... I have opted not to try again not due to any future risk from WotC, but because I never thought so many people here would freak out over it... I missed that some how, so I won't do it again... the risk of having a large number of "peers" for lack of a better term, not trust the Con is too great a risk. The Con only exists if people like those here at the Acaeum, Dragonsfoot, K&K etc etc attend. And if they have a problem with Mike or I, then they may not come to the Con... so I must now take additional risk factors into the fold when I do things related to the Con...

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:16 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:I took a chance, printed some GT copies, didn't like the outcome, decided not to do it again... I never said is was legal or right to do, I was hoping WotC would be like Wee Warriors and not care, I was wrong, so I moved on.


Wow.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:26 pm 
 

Wow is this thread ever going to end!!

14 pages and counting  8O

Obviously this is a very contentious topic.  I for one do not have an opinion, I have the Inverness reprint from the con and I think it is Neato.  :)


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:28 pm 
 

I might be worse...I PAID for mine!

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:30 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Wow is this thread ever going to end!!

Entitled "Tortured Souls" for more than one reason...?


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"


Last edited by faro on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:30 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma

yes, "not care" as in give permission as Peter did. He really doesn't care about this old stuff, if he had he wouldn't have thrown away the ORIGINAL printing plates in 2004ish.

I was hoping WotC would work out something to allow such a small limited printing of a HAND MADE, hand typed tourney module from 1979 for "pete's sake" !!! (no reference to Peter Kerestan)

Who knew WotC would not be willing to work with anyone.. heck they let some overseas company print super mini rules books you can hardly read at some point ...

Obviously WotC didn't want money either... I know any portion of $2000 dollars gross on 100 books isn't something WotC wants to spend any time on... but money is money... how hard could it be for them to accept my proposed limited scope:

100 digest size copies of the ghost tower tourney module printed in 1979 with all proceeds benefiting the NTRPGCon, and only sold at the Con with all remaining copies to be destroyed.

I kept it simple, was willing to pay them part of the money... if they didn't care about this module, it should have been a simple, sure you can do it, sign here...

Obviously they care... my hopes are now to see some new release of GH tourney module down the road... not !

So they don't care as I had presumed, just not the "don't care" I had hoped for.

Our Con, even old school as it is, still puts RPGs out there, which has got to be good for WotC, but they don't care... :)

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:31 pm 
 

And now the (c) issue has been discussed to death, perhaps when/if Basil can get online and discuss with Ian or the community here about the project, we may see something progress and end up with a great addition to everyones collection.

Just to clarify, I am in!


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:33 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Neither are arguing that their actions are 'right' or 'legal', only that they believe them to be morally just when measured against their own value systems, and that they have the right under the US Constitution to exersize their own set of values and face any consequences for those actions should they emerge.

At least that's what I take from what Mike and Doug are saying.


ScketreWhisp® wrote:mbassoc2003 (or Ian)... exactly...


ScketreWhisp® wrote:It is wrong, period, no if, ans, or buts about it.


So let me get this straight...

1) Doug has the constitutional right to do the morally just thing, as defined under his system of values... I'm not finding this is the U.S. Constitution, but let's leave that for another time.

2) Doug has decided to disregard his own value system (see quote #3 above) and do the "wrong" thing, intentionally breaching copyright law, by reprinting a printed work the rights to which belong to someone else, in the hope he doesn't get called on it.

:roll:

Fair enough. I feel like I've beaten my head against a brick wall.

EDIT: Can I change my username to ScketreWhisp (without the ®) now :)? I guess I'd get caught fairly quickly...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:42 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:
So let me get this straight...

1) Doug has the constitutional right to do the morally just thing, as defined under his system of values... I'm not finding this is the U.S. Constitution, but let's leave that for another time.

2) Doug has decided to disregard his own value system (see quote #3 above) and do the "wrong" thing, intentionally breaching copyright law, by reprinting a printed work the rights to which belong to someone else, in the hope he doesn't get called on it.

:roll:

Fair enough. I feel like I've beaten my head against a brick wall.

EDIT: Can I change my username to ScketreWhisp (without the ®) now :)? I guess I'd get caught fairly quickly...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:48 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:
Please do not be bitter about something that doesn't matter  :?


When you're right, you're right. I'm not really bitter, just a bit dismayed.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:51 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma

1) Everyone does what they feel is okay, regardless of the laws... those that rob stores rob stores with no regard to the law, they apparently don't find it morally wrong... the store has money, they want it, they take it... it's wrong but they do it, there is a risk but they do it... I am sure many post on this forum when at work thus being paid for non working time, reason enough to get fired, but they do it anyway ... it's not a Constitutional right by any means, never said it was...

2) You misunderstood... quote # 3 is stating that I was wrong.. yes, but I did not do it intentionally hoping not to get caught. I did it hoping my eventual answer would be like what I got from Wee Warriors... I knew I was taking a chance at being told "no".. if WotC had said "no" sometime during my first 3 emails, we would not be having this conversation, I would have never printed it... if you don't understand that, I can't help you.

Again, I won't print anything again without someone's permission, I have said this numerous times. My bad for thinking someone like WotC wouldn't let some Con print 100 copies of something... I still don't understand why they said "no" and no one will convince me why they said "no", they were getting FREE money for it and still said no... sorry if you want to send me FREE money, I will always say yes....

actually I want money for all these "quotes" from my posts... all these posts are copyrighted by my hand has I type them... I know who you are !

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:57 pm 
 

I get it.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:44 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:mbassoc2003 (or Ian)... exactly...

I speed every day of my life... I drive 77 on the highway, always have since I was 16... the speed feels right to me when I am moving down a highway.. I don't even have to look at the speedometer... when I get to the right speed and look down, it's 77 ... just how it is.

If/When I get pulled over, the police officer (and I use to be a Police officer in the 80's) he always asks how fast I was going, I always tell them 77 ... just right me a ticket and let me be on my way, I'll pay it as soon as I get home... I have even gotten 2 tickets in the same day on the same highway about an hour apart. I know there is a risk, and I have no problem paying the price when I get caught.

I haven't got a speeding ticket since about 1988 so obviously my speed isn't a problem for most police officers since I have passed many either driving or sitting on the road side over the years and no ticket. But in 1988 is when I got the 2 in the same day...

I know the rules and I know the price for breaking them if I take the risk.


He does drive like a maniac.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:52 pm 
 

*bump* but also interested if Basil has been in contact anymore Ian..??


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:28 am 
 

ashmire13 wrote:*bump* but also interested if Basil has been in contact anymore Ian..??

Nope. Nada. Not a peep out of him. I have e-mailed and PMed him just to be sure he has my e-mail address though.


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:03 am 
 

Just thought I'd give this a quarterly *bump*


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm 
 

I picked up TS#1 from Tadashi last week, and was quite pleased by the quality of its contents.

Ian:  have you had any luck with putting together an archive of this (not that you've had much time to focus on such things lately...)?  

If anyone has reading copies of the rest of the issues (I only have #1) that they'd like to trade, I'm definitely interested :D  I also understand (from reading some older discussions herein) that the TS issues often had various extras provided with each issue.  Tadashi's had the overground scenario for the Tomb of Qadir included, but is there an index or other listing that details all of the various bits and bobs likely to go missing that should be included with each complete issue?


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