Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:25 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:Looks good to me. 8)
I know you will continue to keep us updated, so my thanks in advance.
I would like to be placed on a wait list, if one is made...


I guess this thread took on a whole other life than what was originally intended...  :?  :roll:

Somehow I am not surprised in the least.  :wink:

However; My interest in the original intent of this thread remains unchanged.
Three years ago (perhaps even more) the DVD box was in the proofing stages and the artwork for the DVD was being looked over.
IIRC: The PDF was being looked over by folks all over the globe.
Any news on the production front?


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:57 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:
I guess this thread took on a whole other life than what was originally intended...  :?  :roll:

Somehow I am not surprised in the least.  :wink:

However; My interest in the original intent of this thread remains unchanged.
Three years ago (perhaps even more) the DVD box was in the proofing stages and the artwork for the DVD was being looked over.
IIRC: The PDF was being looked over by folks all over the globe.
Any news on the production front?


A quick synopsis...

In 2006 I began assembling the project and looking for SF and BB.
By 2008 a box and disc were mocked up and I went out for quotes to cost a project. I also made contact with Basil Barrett, gave him a quick breakdown on progress so far and my view of a viable product. Never went into costs as production quotes hadn't come back, but I probably gave him an indication of my intended production run, and my estimate of possible sales. I forwarded sample files, asked a few questions about the campaign world at large, and the earlier little known TS 'zines. We discussed in outline the extent of his right to grant permission, other perties with vested interest and possible terms and remittence/honourarium levels.
Basil had to explore his options and rights, and between then and now, we fell out of contact. This thread was revived because Basil stumbled upon it again, bumped it, and hey presto, we have a big PDF/Copyright discussion. Basil is off exploring his IP rights again, as I've now pointed out that his original copyright has lapsed and much of the periodical IP has now reverted to original authors/artists, and I now think this is likely to be a Basil Barrett project going forward.



Incidentally, Basil, if you read this - As well as my experience with PDFs etc, I also have Beastentz.com and Beastentz.co.uk at your disposal. You coul re-present a complete package online with Jon Baker's distinctive artwork and a little web expertise. I'm happy to help if you're looking to put together a team.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:20 pm 
 

Mike told me not to post... but hey, I am going to post... it's a long post, I didn't have time to read it for grammar, spelling etc, read it all though before beating me down about some part of it.

First off Mike doesn't know everything that I do when I am working on things, he only gets parts that I talk to him about, he is not privy to all  my emails and phone conversations with people, so when he comments about "Doug" he is working on most of the information, which might also not be enough info at times. So don't get too picky on what he claims about me and what I do, I think he is just trying to defend me, and I appreciate it.

My views on copyright are actually the same as views on ANY item be it physical or "virtual". To me if someone owns a piece of land, and passes it down for 1000 years to their family, it's still owned by the family... that land doesn't become "public domain" just because X years have passed.. same thing with your D&D collection, letters in a chest from your dead relative from 300 years ago, etc. etc. I feel copyright should follow the same rules and even to the extent of a "cure for cancer" ... but also just like someone losing an old chest ie: family buries it and then dies and family doesn't know about it, sells the land to someone else, 100 years later someone finds the chest on their land (ie: the land and it contents were sold long ago and the buried chest is part of the land now) The new owners of the chest do not have to return any part of the contents to the original family and the original family shouldn't have any rights to it (no clue if this is legal etc, just my opinion). Also, squatters could in the past move to land, build, live etc and if no one said anything or objected to them being there, then at some point it was their land and they now owned it..... there are many laws in the land in various states that are no longer enforced, but are still on the books, just never been taken off... and people can push the limits of those laws and either they get ignored, changed or enforced again...

So when it comes to copyright law, it's really the copyright owners' responsibility to press the issue if they wish to protect their property. I am not saying it's legal for someone to infringe on someone's copyright, but if they don't care to stop you from doing so, then obviously they no longer care ... That's what happens with some land owners over time. They have land, people use a small portion to cut across the land to get to town, the owner being nice, doesn't really care.. fast forward XX years and now the town wants to build a road across the same place people use to cut across, it's hard to argue the "public" access to the land and the owner or his family can lose the land with NO money being paid for it... the owner needed to enforce his rights in the beginning, charge a fee, put up a fence etc.

It's against the law to trespass on someone's land, period, be it posted or not. You are to presume that posted or not posted, if it's not your property and it's not public property, then you shouldn't be on the land. But the police, lawyers etc can NOT prosecute you if the OWNER of the land does NOT bring charges against you... so if you are on the owner's land without his permission are you breaking the law ??? since the law is not "broken" until the land owner files charges.. if he never files charges, you never broke the law. Sounds outside the box, but think about it. So I believe it's the same for copyright law. If someone wants to infringe on someone's copyright, let them, heck tell the copyright owner. The copyright owner WILL get involved if they have a problem with it... look at the Hibbs bothers and their module, they got a C&D letter, WotC had a problem and said something about it. They weren't out to "cheat" WotC out of any funds, and WotC didn't lose a penny due to the sale of their module, but WotC said "no". I think all you can do is try your best to contact all copyright owners, speak to those you can, if they all have no problem and you can't get a hold of the rest, print your item and see what happens, if you get a C&D or get your hand slapped, it's a risk you were willing to take (if you aren't willing, don't do it)... I mean it's against the law to cross the street anywhere but at the the light/crosswalk... if you cross elsewhere you risk getting run over, a ticket for J-walking etc, who hasn't taken that risk ? who's been run over and/or gotten a ticket ?

Anyway... so much for that crap...

Story of the digest prints

When NTRPGCon started in 2009, reprinting PotVQ and stuff like that wasn't something the Con was looking to do. My emails with Peter Kerestan go back to 2006. At the time I spoke with Peter on the phone. I asked if it would be okay to scan a nice copy and print PDFs of the Wee Warriors stuff and/or maybe create a limited print run of a fleshed out copy or possibly a deluxe copy with the original scan side by side with fleshed out pages, maybe some history etc in it, have then signed etc etc. Peter had no problems with this and even said he didn't care what I did with it... it was 30+ years ago stuff and just surprised people still were interested. I also discussed if I needed permission from his ex-wife and/or "Morno" (don't remember the dudes actual name at this moment). Peter said I wouldn't need anyone's permission other than his.

I still took the time to call and speak to Peter's ex wife (Judy ?) and she had no problem with it either. Even talked about her mom still using many of the black folders to store paperwork in.

I called "Morno" and the call was very short, basically, he doesn't do that type of work anymore.. wasn't even interested in talking about it. No clue what his problem was, don't really care.

I scanned a nice copy of the PotVQ in very high resolution (why since it's black & white, no clue, just trying to make it nice). I put together a PDF and emailed it to Peter. Then didn't speak to Peter again until 2011.

We of course had to print programs for the 2009 Con, they were small, I did them at home, and they were a pain. Also at the Con, games were run by Tim, Frank, Dennis etc and they brought printed copies of the modules and an idea was born ... we could print these in digest format and make a few bucks splitting the profits with the author of the modules... we needed funding since the Con costs money ...

2010 is in the plans so I also decided, what a perfect way to do the PotVQ and help fund the Con. $10.00 copies, 100 prints, cost was about $5.00/ea we make $500, same for the modules from Special Guests but we only make $250.00 since we split the profits. Problem is, we only sold about 25 copies of the PotVQ at the 2010 Con as well as modules from the Special Guests and had to sell all the rest after the Con online... took over 6 months to get rid of them... still a good deal, just slower return than I'd hoped. Met Steve Winter at the 2010 Con and asked for a contact at WotC so I could speak to someone about possibly reprinting some old tournament modules like Ghost Tower etc... none of the retail release modules, only limited stuff like the tournament modules was my interest... if Wee Warriors said yes, why not WotC ?

Now 2011 comes along... we are printing digest booklets of modules for Steve, Tim, and Dennis... nice thing is, Steve and Dennis allow the Con to keep all the funds... sending emails to contact at WotC, no response after third email, but still looking to print Ghost Tower, need to get it done so print it anyway in hopes of hearing back.. plan on selling it for $20.00 just because it will be way cooler than PotVQ or Dwarven Glory in my personal opinion. Crunch time, Con about to begin, no word still on Ghost Tower.. should I hold them, or should I figure a different way to "sell" them since I have them in hand... decide to give them away instead of selling them.. is it legal, don't really know but still hoping WotC won't care and will say it's okay. Take them to the Con, get rid of 85 (actually only get moneys for 76~79 have to find my notes). Once the word is out, someone contacts WotC since they can't believe they'd give permission for this. I call WotC at this point (still no contact from WotC). I speak to someone that tells me I need to speak to a totally different person than I have been emailing... I get a new email.. I send them an email.. shortly (a few days or so) I get a response telling me I need to talk to someone else again... (WotC doesn't seem to have a clue who I really need to speak with).. I email another person and explain what I want to do, am told no with no details.. I email again with more details hoping to get more info in return. This time I get more details on why and that WotC doesn't do this etc... so I send one last email stating that I have already done it, the modules are already in the hands of others and I won't do it again... never get another email back .. never get a call, never get a C&D letter... so did they really care ? don't know, but I won't try it again even though I don't think they care... why will I not do it again ? not because I am afraid of WotC, not because they said they wouldn't give me permission, because a number of people here had an uproar about it.... that's why I won't try it again.

And to set Mars straight, all the stuff we print is $10.00, has been, will be unless prices go up... I only wanted to do something like Ghost Tower or some other really cool module for $20.00, since that isn't going to happen, anything else will be $10.00 as always.

As to Peter "forgetting" about printing the PotVQ. John January was trying to sell a Dwarven Glory on eBay, someone that knows Peter contacted John and told him that Peter would never give his permission to do that... that person was unaware of anything Peter and I discussed. John called me, I called Peter since the original email address I had for him was no longer good (he was working at a college in Arkansas at the time, I believe he has since moved to Nevada this year as his NEW email is now no longer active nor his phone again... so let's hope he comes to the Con since I can't get in touch with him again) anyway I spoke to Peter and reviewed our conversation. He remembered the PDF discussion and the copy I sent him, not the printing it portion. I reviewed the discussion again, explained that I only did as per the conversation and printed 100 copies digest format only of PotVQ and DG to help fund the Con. He then said that was not a problem and he'd like a printed copy of each.. so I sent him my copies - after all the trouble I don't even have copies... I invited him to the Con, said he wanted to come, and I also advised we might print the Misty Ilse as well. No clue why Peter only remembered part of what we discussed, don't care why we didn't remember, if he tells me we can't do it, I'll not do it, for the moment, it's legal and I am working within what we discussed... even though he originally said he didn't care what I did with it, I am keeping to 100 printed copies in digest format only. I think Peter could set it up as POD and allow people to buy digest, full size etc copies and they'd still sell here and there if he wanted to still make a few bucks on this old stuff... it's still his product, I don't own the copyright.

So now you have my view on copyright, and more info on Wee Warriors reprints and the GT stuff.

I wish someone could take the time to flesh out the PotVQ to make it real "complete" module. Then I'd love to print a full size copy with a scan of each original page next to the new fleshed out page and a bit of history in the module about the product, Wee Warriors, Peter etc...  then Peter could sign them at the Con in 2012. but alas probably no time to get this done by the next Con.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:00 pm 
 

Truly bizarre logic. It sounds as if your philosophy is (or was, anyway) that if the copyright owner doesn't expressly forbid you to reprint something, you have tacit permission. Generally speaking, I think the assumption should be the opposite, i.e., that unless one has express written permission to reprint a copyrighted work, then it's a violation, hence the statement to that effect on the copyright page in most books. The guideline shouldn't be, "I can do this unless someone objects, as long as I feel it's for a good cause," it should be (is), "I'm infringing a copyright if I reprint something and don't have express permission to do so." The "express" part is fairly crucial here. Peter saying, "I don't care what you do," is hardly enough. And the wrong-headedness of the Ghost Tower thing is obvious.

I can't fathom how anyone can see it any other way than Mars articulated pages back. Any perspective other than, "The copyright owner makes the rules, and you don't assume any permission not explicitly given," is self-serving, or at least wishful thinking.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:56 pm 
 

You read it the way you wanted to I guess...

What I am telling you is this.

Some laws can be enforced by the police etc.. ie: you break a law and the police can enforce it whether someone files charges or not.

Other laws are not "broken" until someone presses charges... I am not saying it's legal, I am not saying it's okay to do, I am not saying the law hasn't really been broken at all... I am saying, unless someone presses their rights, you aren't going to get in trouble...

If you park at a parking meter and don't pay, IF a cop sees you, he will write you a ticket... OR if someone calls the police you might get a ticket... ie: if you get caught... not what I am talking about... on the other hand, if you punch your wife in the face, that is assault... doesn't matter if the police see it or not... they won't take you to jail unless your wife presses charges for assault.... (in some circumstances if the police believe your wife is in continued danger of assault and there is also repeated history of same, they can take you off to jail) ... but assault, which is illegal, isn't really assault if the party being hurt doesn't file charges... even though the assault law was broken.

So, all I mean to say is, copyright law is there. You are not suppose to break that law. If you want to reprint something and you have spoken to the copyright owner via whatever means.. email, phone call, letter etc. and the owner says "no you can't do it" then of course you should not do it. If the owner won't reply, won't give you the time of day, won't bother to respond, then give it a try and see what happens... if you get smacked for it, then don't do it again since the smack could be a C&D or it could be a lawsuit or jail time...

In the case of Wee Warriors, Peter said I could make the PDF, said I could flesh it out and print copies etc.. He agreed to everything we spoke about... then didn't hear from me for 5 years... maybe that's why he didn't "remember" .. maybe he thought I dropped the idea... but when I called him back about it in July, he had no problems with any of it and remembered the phone calls... so [Peter saying, "I don't care what you do," is hardly enough] is incorrect... and again, if Peter had said that he didn't want me to do it, I would not. I also would have been more than happy to give him the $1000 made on selling the PotVQ & Dwarven Glory if he had asked just as well as I'd give WotC the $1580.00 I received for the Ghost Towers if they want it. (I actually donated the entire $1318 in profit from the GT booklets to something else so the Con got no funds from it after all)

Again, I am not suggesting anyone break any laws. I am only saying do things knowing there is a risk and some laws aren't "broken" until someone presses the issue.

There are other things I'd like the Con to reprint, and I am working to get consent from the proper copyright holders. Will I attempt to reprint something I don't actually have "yes" or "it's okay" for, probably not... but it really depends... if it's a module my friend wrote and printed 20 copies of in 1982 and he is now dead, was an only child, never married and his parents are dead as well.. I might just print it anyway and see if I get in trouble....

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:02 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp wrote:I wish someone could take the time to flesh out the PotVQ to make it real "complete" module. Then I'd love to print a full size copy with a scan of each original page next to the new fleshed out page and a bit of history in the module about the product, Wee Warriors, Peter etc...  then Peter could sign them at the Con in 2012.


Get with a couple of the OSR bloggers that come to NTRPGCon (I can think of three off the top of my head).  Ask them if they are interested in helping with something similar to the One Page Dungeon Contest.  Give them reprint copies of PotVQ and have them ask for submissions from the blogosphere to fill in all the rooms/encounters etc.  Have Mike, myself, and a couple of other locals go through all the submissions and pick out the best.  Free copies for the ones that get picked.

And if you wanted to raise some serious interest and advertise the convention even more, you could give away an original copy to the person with the best idea (you could stand to give one away).  Of course people would have to be present at the con to win.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:06 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:Mike told me not to post... but hey, I am going to post... it's a long post, I didn't have time to read it for grammar, spelling etc, read it all though before beating me down about some part of it.

Thanks for doing so, Doug.

ScketreWhisp® wrote:...since the law is not "broken" until the land owner files charges.. if he never files charges, you never broke the law. Sounds outside the box, but think about it. So I believe it's the same for copyright law.

Once more around the block, sorry.

U.S. law, as written, has been broken - but to pursue the charge would require WotC to submit a statement as part of the presentence report. That is not the same as saying the law has not been broken unless the (c) owner files charges. It's a criminal offence once the total value goes over $2,500, which is why I tried to get eBay to pull Gnat's auction before that was exceeded (multiplied out by the number of copies) and was called a "whiny Wendy" by Mike for doing so.
I linked you the legislation at the time; viewtopic.php?p=182507&highlight=#182507
=> http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/113/2319 / http://trac.syr.edu/laws/17/17USC00506.html - with up to an extra couple of years if there's "commercial advantage" rather than straight-forward "reproduction or distribution".

ScketreWhisp® wrote:I wish someone could take the time to flesh out the PotVQ to make it real "complete" module.

+1, as I'd written before a few times but not heard back (as for DG, too). The trilogy (and other refs. such as VF) /really/ deserves to be worked up as a more "polished" campaign setting.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:17 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:You read it the way you wanted to I guess...

What I am telling you is this.

Some laws can be enforced by the police etc.. ie: you break a law and the police can enforce it whether someone files charges or not.

Other laws are not "broken" until someone presses charges... I am not saying it's legal, I am not saying it's okay to do, I am not saying the law hasn't really been broken at all... I am saying, unless someone presses their rights, you aren't going to get in trouble...

If you park at a parking meter and don't pay, IF a cop sees you, he will write you a ticket... OR if someone calls the police you might get a ticket... ie: if you get caught... not what I am talking about... on the other hand, if you punch your wife in the face, that is assault... doesn't matter if the police see it or not... they won't take you to jail unless your wife presses charges for assault.... (in some circumstances if the police believe your wife is in continued danger of assault and there is also repeated history of same, they can take you off to jail) ... but assault, which is illegal, isn't really assault if the party being hurt doesn't file charges... even though the assault law was broken.

So, all I mean to say is, copyright law is there. You are not suppose to break that law. If you want to reprint something and you have spoken to the copyright owner via whatever means.. email, phone call, letter etc. and the owner says "no you can't do it" then of course you should not do it. If the owner won't reply, won't give you the time of day, won't bother to respond, then give it a try and see what happens... if you get smacked for it, then don't do it again since the smack could be a C&D or it could be a lawsuit or jail time...

In the case of Wee Warriors, Peter said I could make the PDF, said I could flesh it out and print copies etc.. He agreed to everything we spoke about... then didn't hear from me for 5 years... maybe that's why he didn't "remember" .. maybe he thought I dropped the idea... but when I called him back about it in July, he had no problems with any of it and remembered the phone calls... so [Peter saying, "I don't care what you do," is hardly enough] is incorrect... and again, if Peter had said that he didn't want me to do it, I would not. I also would have been more than happy to give him the $1000 made on selling the PotVQ & Dwarven Glory if he had asked just as well as I'd give WotC the $1580.00 I received for the Ghost Towers if they want it. (I actually donated the entire $1318 in profit from the GT booklets to something else so the Con got no funds from it after all)

Again, I am not suggesting anyone break any laws. I am only saying do things knowing there is a risk and some laws aren't "broken" until someone presses the issue.

There are other things I'd like the Con to reprint, and I am working to get consent from the proper copyright holders. Will I attempt to reprint something I don't actually have "yes" or "it's okay" for, probably not... but it really depends... if it's a module my friend wrote and printed 20 copies of in 1982 and he is now dead, was an only child, never married and his parents are dead as well.. I might just print it anyway and see if I get in trouble....


I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that assaulting your wife who is too afraid to call the police, camping in my backyard when I'm not home and won't know about it, and reprinting copyrighted material without permission, are all wrong, whether or not you're actually prosecuted. It's about ethics, not risk of being caught...

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding your position, and I don't think I am, it would be okay with you if someone downloaded and printed out pirated .pdfs of the entire TSR catalog and distributed copies to their friends for $1 apiece, because the likelihood of WotC pressing charges in negligible.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:35 pm 
 

No - I read that as; Doug believes he has the right to weight up the pros and cons of infringing copyright, to make his own moral decisions, market a product and take his chances with any repocussions. I see that as what Doug is saying here. He is exerting his right to bring his own value system to the table, make his own decisions and face those consequences in the full knowledge and with full honesty for what he choses to do.

He leaves it up to the buyer to make their own mind up, whether or not they wish to avail themselves of an offered reprint or not.

And what Mike is pointing out is, the buyer is neither committing a crime by buying a copy, nor is the buyer encouraging Doug to infringe IP by buying the product. Mike is pointing out that Doug is a free agent exercising freedom of choice having conducted his own research and making his own moral stand, and that has no bearing or weight in his, Mikes, decision to buy a product.

Neither are arguing that their actions are 'right' or 'legal', only that they believe them to be morally just when measured against their own value systems, and that they have the right under the US Constitution to exersize their own set of values and face any consequences for those actions should they emerge.

At least that's what I take from what Mike and Doug are saying.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:46 pm 
 

I wasn't talking about getting caught... that's why I specifically mentioned that. And I am also not talking about ethics either.

It is wrong, period, no if, ans, or buts about it.

I am saying that some things you will not get in trouble for unless someone presses charges...

If someone downloaded and printed pirated PDFs of TSRs products and sold them to friends for $1.00 each, I won't buy them knowing they are probably not legal... but I won't be the one calling WotC since I don't really care either way. Someone wants to let WotC know about it WotC doesn't do anything about it, then I might buy some at that time knowing that WotC knows and apparently doesn't care.

That person doing it knows there is a risk, and thus can take that risk since they are the one's going to pay the price if WotC presses it.

Once WotC is notified, and in turn WotC doesn't follow up with a D&C or something to show they do not approve, then they have given consent at that point and I'd have no problem buying them... so I think WotC would take the time to say "no" as they at least took the time to eventually tell me "no".

As far as it being "okay" with me, it's "okay" with e that you do anything you like, legal or illegal. If it doesn't involve me, I really don't care too much.

It is wrong to shoot fireworks inside the city limits... if the police see you, you get a ticket. I don't call the police when kids do it since I don't care UNLESS they catch my house on fire... then I will turn them in... so the kids can have fun and shoot off fireworks in my neighborhood if they are careful... at least I won't tell... it's wrong, they broke the law but I also do not tell them it's okay to do either. They make that choice on their own.

You can rob a store for all I care, but if I am in the store you choose to rob and I feel threatened, then I might pull my gun and shoot you... you took the risk, you know people in Texas can have a carry permit and thus someone else in the store could be armed... take the chance, it's your life to spend it how you like, the police might catch you, you might get off scot free and more power to you.

I took a chance, printed some GT copies, didn't like the outcome, decided not to do it again... I never said is was legal or right to do, I was hoping WotC would be like Wee Warriors and not care, I was wrong, so I moved on.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:54 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:...downloaded and printed out pirated .pdfs of the entire TSR catalog and distributed copies to their friends for $1 apiece, because the likelihood of WotC pressing charges in negligible.

Less likely than for those people distributing the .pdfs in the first place, perhaps, since those are relatively "easy game"?

ScketreWhisp® wrote:I was hoping WotC would be like Wee Warriors and not care...

WotC clearly "cared" enough to pursue "easy game", as was well known; q.v. http://diceofdoom.com/blog/2009/10/wiza ... ment-case/

Anyhow...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:57 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 (or Ian)... exactly...

I speed every day of my life... I drive 77 on the highway, always have since I was 16... the speed feels right to me when I am moving down a highway.. I don't even have to look at the speedometer... when I get to the right speed and look down, it's 77 ... just how it is.

If/When I get pulled over, the police officer (and I use to be a Police officer in the 80's) he always asks how fast I was going, I always tell them 77 ... just right me a ticket and let me be on my way, I'll pay it as soon as I get home... I have even gotten 2 tickets in the same day on the same highway about an hour apart. I know there is a risk, and I have no problem paying the price when I get caught.

I haven't got a speeding ticket since about 1988 so obviously my speed isn't a problem for most police officers since I have passed many either driving or sitting on the road side over the years and no ticket. But in 1988 is when I got the 2 in the same day...

I know the rules and I know the price for breaking them if I take the risk.

I weigh the risk and decide if I can live with it, in the case of the GTs, I figured it would be okay... I have opted not to try again not due to any future risk from WotC, but because I never thought so many people here would freak out over it... I missed that some how, so I won't do it again... the risk of having a large number of "peers" for lack of a better term, not trust the Con is too great a risk. The Con only exists if people like those here at the Acaeum, Dragonsfoot, K&K etc etc attend. And if they have a problem with Mike or I, then they may not come to the Con... so I must now take additional risk factors into the fold when I do things related to the Con...

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:16 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:I took a chance, printed some GT copies, didn't like the outcome, decided not to do it again... I never said is was legal or right to do, I was hoping WotC would be like Wee Warriors and not care, I was wrong, so I moved on.


Wow.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:26 pm 
 

Wow is this thread ever going to end!!

14 pages and counting  8O

Obviously this is a very contentious topic.  I for one do not have an opinion, I have the Inverness reprint from the con and I think it is Neato.  :)


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:28 pm 
 

I might be worse...I PAID for mine!

Hector :D


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:30 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Wow is this thread ever going to end!!

Entitled "Tortured Souls" for more than one reason...?


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"


Last edited by faro on Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:30 pm 
 

MetamorphosisSigma

yes, "not care" as in give permission as Peter did. He really doesn't care about this old stuff, if he had he wouldn't have thrown away the ORIGINAL printing plates in 2004ish.

I was hoping WotC would work out something to allow such a small limited printing of a HAND MADE, hand typed tourney module from 1979 for "pete's sake" !!! (no reference to Peter Kerestan)

Who knew WotC would not be willing to work with anyone.. heck they let some overseas company print super mini rules books you can hardly read at some point ...

Obviously WotC didn't want money either... I know any portion of $2000 dollars gross on 100 books isn't something WotC wants to spend any time on... but money is money... how hard could it be for them to accept my proposed limited scope:

100 digest size copies of the ghost tower tourney module printed in 1979 with all proceeds benefiting the NTRPGCon, and only sold at the Con with all remaining copies to be destroyed.

I kept it simple, was willing to pay them part of the money... if they didn't care about this module, it should have been a simple, sure you can do it, sign here...

Obviously they care... my hopes are now to see some new release of GH tourney module down the road... not !

So they don't care as I had presumed, just not the "don't care" I had hoped for.

Our Con, even old school as it is, still puts RPGs out there, which has got to be good for WotC, but they don't care... :)

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:31 pm 
 

And now the (c) issue has been discussed to death, perhaps when/if Basil can get online and discuss with Ian or the community here about the project, we may see something progress and end up with a great addition to everyones collection.

Just to clarify, I am in!


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