Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:48 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:One person's crime of copyright breach cannot be passed down the chain to the buyers, whether they knew or not.


I think the both the hooker and her pimp can be charged :)

mbassoc2003 wrote: I see no difference in Mike buying a $1 DVD knowing in all likelihood that people's copyrights would have been breached for him to get his DVD, and all the billions of AHs around the world who buy News International products or watch their TV, knowingly supporting his companies' criminal activities.


You are absolutely right.  You can't police everything, but you try and take a stance for the things that you care about.  Its why on the Acaeum we have a thread to report people selling illegal PDFs on Ebay, etc.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:45 pm 
 

Mars wrote:
Badmike wrote:
And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one.

I know you would.  You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down to it for something you wanted (or could profit from), you'd stab him in the back.  If such a product became available, of course it would breach copyright for thousands of people and you don't care.

No "catch", I just wanted to hear you say it loud and clear that you don't care about copyright laws.  If there is only a slim chance of getting caught with minor consequences then you would do it - regardless of the law.  


I just thought I'd give you what you wanted, you'd been fishing for it so long, so I threw a ridiculous extreme situation out there for the hell of it.  Also, you should know if I found a treasure chest full of pirate gold in my backyard one day I'd probably keep it also without telling the authorities, that melted down gold could pay for a lot of years in college for my relatives and I really don't need the government taking a chunk.

         
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Except your point is a meaningless utopian fantasy. The law already had a chance to do that, and they didn't, ON PURPOSE. They don't CARE if the property is being used, developed, or sold. All they care about is extending the copyright another few generations to benefit megabucks corps like Disney, Conde Nast, and others.


My uptopian fantasy is no worse than yours where "fans should dictate when and how a character is developed".  Afterall they paid their $10 to see the movie or buy the book.  I'm still not sure if your anger is directed at megacorps or just the US government or the US constitution.  Megacorps are just doing what is logical for them to do - follow legal means to protect their interests.  The us government lets them do it and the us constitution has facility to allow for it.


I don't have to like it, I don't like it, but there's nothing I can do except bitch about it. We just have opposed opinions on this and are not going to change each others mind (btw, Doug is pretty much exactly on your side when it comes to this argument, we've had several discussions about it).  

         
I mean, do you REALLY know we got all the permissions necessary to publish Tim Kask's stuff? Did we really ever speak to Peter Kerestan? Maybe Steve Winter doesn't know we stuck his 2010 adventures up for sale. Trusting us at this point would seem to be a really risky endeavor.


Your right, trusting that NTRPG would do the right thing is a risky gamble.  In 2 years, you have managed to completely ignore copyright by producing fake copies of Ghost Tower.  You reproduce Wee Warriors items  reported as being legitimate but then when Peter Kerestan finds out, he has no recollection of giving his permission and has to be "reminded of the agreement".  I'm guessing that means there was no cheque mailed out for any compensation or he would have remembered that (so much for compensating the little guy).  You did also get Morno's approval too right?  And the increase in price from $10 to $20?  What kind of price can you put on an instant collectible anyway right.


I'm shocked you dealt with us then, but hey, the lure of an item like a POTVQ or Dwarven Glory reprint (multiple copies, at that) was so great you were able to ignore your ethics for awhile, just admit it.  I'm betting you won't rush out in a righteous rage and burn the copies you have should I admit here we didn't have the rights for anything we published....

...but that would be a lie. Pete has given us his permission and refused to accept any compensation (except for copies of the digests for himself, since he no longer owns any copies).  Pete is one of those guys that has absolutely zero interest in what he did 30+ years ago and is actually surprised anyone cares enough to collect those old games he wrote and published.  He actually did forget he had given us rights to reprint Wee Warriors items when an associate saw a copy for sale on ebay and contacted him without knowing the entire story.  Doug called and reminded him, he remembered, and he again gave us his approval.  I don't think he'd be appearing as a special guest at the 2012 con if he felt we had ripped him off or treated him wrongly.  BTW, just to cover our bases, several years ago both Pete's ex-wife Judy and Morno were also contacted and approval secured although we were assured by Pete he maintained full rights to the material, we wanted to cover our bases.  But personally, I don't see how you can ever be absolutely satisfied with buying anything reprinted without a twinge of guilt.

Ironic statement considering you make a living as a reseller.  I'd much rather support the authors/artists of the work than a con with questionable ethics.


Go ahead, we don't mind. Meanwhile we'll continue to legally get hard to find collectibles into the hands of fans who cannot afford to pay the inflated prices the market demands.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:48 am 
 

Mike doesn't need my support on this forum, but this topic has crossed into the twilight zone if he has come under attack both personally and as someone somehow hurting the hobby or the people past, present or future who are creating material for our shared addiction.

When I think of the people who make this forum a great place to visit, Mike is at the top of the list, and besides any posts relating to sports or bacon I make sure to click on the ones that have his name.

Mike should be getting an award for what he has done for this hobby in the 15+ years that I've known him.

Just my 2c here (along with another $4.98 in pennys in a sock ready to beat the crap out of somone).


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:58 am 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:Just my 2c here (along with another $4.98 in pennys in a sock ready to beat the crap out of somone).


There is more of a solid thump and jingle from Guineas...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:07 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Also, you should know if I found a treasure chest full of pirate gold in my backyard one day I'd probably keep it also without telling the authorities, that melted down gold could pay for a lot of years in college for my relatives and I really don't need the government taking a chunk.


The descendants of the pirate's family have a moral and ethical right to that gold.  They are the ones that have suffered and had to live with the disgrace of their ancestor.

I'm betting you won't rush out in a righteous rage and burn the copies you have should I admit here we didn't have the rights for anything we published.... ...but that would be a lie.


If you can prove it, I'll burn them all.  But I know they are legit (I ask and check).  I still don't know what to do with Ghost Tower though - burning has come to mind, buying an original has also come to mind (then its fair use).  It's these kind of actions that makes me question stuff and no I won't stop doing that.

I'm shocked you dealt with us then, but hey, the lure of an item like a POTVQ or Dwarven Glory reprint (multiple copies, at that) was so great you were able to ignore your ethics for awhile, just admit it.


I always buy extras and offer them (at cost) to my usual crowd of international buyers who due to timezones or whatever seem to miss them .  If there is something left over then yep I sell em.  I think I had 1 PotVQ left over and sold it on Ebay for $100?  I think everyone must have got in on DG because I still have an extra couple or two.  If an Acaeum member is interested in any of these I usually just sell them at cost.

But personally, I don't see how you can ever be absolutely satisfied with buying anything reprinted without a twinge of guilt.


I check.  I am probably up to about a dozen authors who had no idea someone was reprinting their works claiming they had the rights to do so.

Meanwhile we'll continue to legally get hard to find collectibles into the hands of fans who cannot afford to pay the inflated prices the market demands.


In terms of old small press items, I'll bet that I am still way ahead in the number of copies I've found, sold cheaper than "market value" (i.e. significantly cheaper than the copies I have bought for my collection) and put in the hands of fans and collectors.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:12 am 
 

ah Jason, nothing like a bit of the old ultra violence to enliven and bring clarity to the discussion eh?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:14 am 
 

stratochamp wrote:ah Jason, nothing like a bit of the old ultra violence to enliven and bring clarity to the discussion eh?


LOL

JasonZavoda wrote:Just my 2c here (along with another $4.98 in pennys in a sock ready to beat the crap out of somone).


2 cents more than you've made on Phantasy Conclave I'd bet.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:19 am 
 

Mars wrote: I think everyone must have got in on DG because I still have an extra couple or two.  If an Acaeum member is interested in any of these I usually just sell them at cost.


I'd take one, at cost. I have none of the reprint stuff, figuring I'd rather spend the extra money (which is seemingly getting not that much more) for a true collectible (ie, original.)


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:21 am 
 

copycat wrote:I'd take one, at cost. I have none of the reprint stuff, figuring I'd rather spend the extra money (which is seemingly getting not that much more) for a true collectible (ie, original.)


Send me your address and I will get you a shipping quote.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:41 am 
 

Mars wrote: You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down...


Your argument lost all coherence several pages ago. At this point, it follows the pattern of demanding answers to questions, but when answers are provided you ignore them & jump to the next demand. In other words, the desperation of someone who just lost an argument.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:58 am 
 

Mars wrote:I think the both the hooker and her pimp can be charged  

It is also illegal to both buy, sell and manufacture drugs. But the law in our counries defines what is a crime and what is not. It is illegal to pimp another person for prostitution. It is illegal to be a buyer or a seller in a drug transaction. However, it is not illegal to buy a document that infringes another person's copyright, nor is it illegal to buy a newspaper reporting from criminal means.

Morally, you are trying to argue that someone buying a copyright infringing product is comitting a similar crime to a pimp or a drug purchaser. In which case, Verve fans should be jailed for buying the copyright infringing symphony, and Sun readers should be jailed for being Sun readers.

I don't quite see how you can stack that argument up.
Mars wrote:You are absolutely right.  You can't police everything, but you try and take a stance for the things that you care about.  Its why on the Acaeum we have a thread to report people selling illegal PDFs on Ebay, etc.

That's because the seller is committing a crime. We are flagging up someone committing a crime and then reporting those persons to eBay and/or the relevant IP holders. Taking action against a person committing a criminal act. On Acaeum, we do not list illegal PDFs for sale on eBay and then post the names and addresses of those buyers who bite, naming and shaming the buyers, because by buying the PDFs they are committing no crime, and by listing PDFs for the purposes of naming and shaming buyers, we would in fact be breaking the law.

Only the manufacturer of an illegal PDF comits a crime, and only when he falls outside of what is permitted by the law. No other crime is being committer by anyone. It is wrong to label everyone else for one person's actions. Anyone possession, buying or selling a Dragon Magazine Archive on eBay is doing so knowing they are distributing illegal copyrighted materials. But, no-one is breaking the law, and no-one to my mind is doing anything wrong. The only person who broke the law was the manufacturer, and any settlement between them and infringed parties takes into account future damages the products release may bring about. That's certainly the way the law works in the UK. I can only assume it to be similar in the US and Canada.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:25 am 
 

Mars wrote:Badmike wrote:
Also, you should know if I found a treasure chest full of pirate gold in my backyard one day I'd probably keep it also without telling the authorities, that melted down gold could pay for a lot of years in college for my relatives and I really don't need the government taking a chunk.


The descendants of the pirate's family have a moral and ethical right to that gold.  They are the ones that have suffered and had to live with the disgrace of their ancestor.


Well at least we both have a sense of humor intact.

Meanwhile we'll continue to legally get hard to find collectibles into the hands of fans who cannot afford to pay the inflated prices the market demands.

In terms of old small press items, I'll bet that I am still way ahead in the number of copies I've found, sold cheaper than "market value" (i.e. significantly cheaper than the copies I have bought for my collection) and put in the hands of fans and collectors.



That's great, and we are trying to do the same thing.  Whether we charge, $10 or $20, having a digest sized reprint of POTVQ is a pretty darn cool thing when the originals run to far more. I think that's pretty far off "market value", and as stated before, if we were just about making money we wouldn't have limited the amount sold because I suspect we could still sell 5-6 a month at $20+ a pop if we choose to keep printing them up.

The amount of time, effort and diligence Doug took tracking down Pete Kerestan, Judy Kerestan (or whatever her name is now) and Morno; and securing the Wee Warriors rights was amazing and he should be commended for that (because anyone else could have done so the last 30 years yet didn't).  Mark when you do the same thing you often are finding already printed items that still haven't been distributed; you aren't also going through the hassle of securing rights and making pdfs of them for sale, nor reprinting the items.  You are simply getting ahold of extra copies that have lain around for decades (much like I did with the Tabletop Warriors booklets) and either selling or distributing them.  What Doug and Ian are doing is much more difficult, time demanding and frustrating than you are doing, and far more open to failure and second guessing. Not to denigrate in the slightest what you do by tracking down these older publishers and writers and acquiring their old stock, since you are providing a great service to the community, but what Doug (and Ian) are doing is far more complex with a lot more wrangling necessary. That's why I'm open to giving them the benefit of the doubt more often than not...

I think now Mark and I have made our positions clear and I promise now I will stop banging on this dead horse because there is no reason to get personal.  On a professional level I think Mark provides a service to the gaming community and if I have insinuated otherwise it was just me being snarky;  I think we are always going to disagree on certain philosophical points.  We should probably both just drop this discussion as it has ranged far afield, if Mark agrees, and this will be my final post on this issue here.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:25 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:Looks good to me. 8)
I know you will continue to keep us updated, so my thanks in advance.
I would like to be placed on a wait list, if one is made...


I guess this thread took on a whole other life than what was originally intended...  :?  :roll:

Somehow I am not surprised in the least.  :wink:

However; My interest in the original intent of this thread remains unchanged.
Three years ago (perhaps even more) the DVD box was in the proofing stages and the artwork for the DVD was being looked over.
IIRC: The PDF was being looked over by folks all over the globe.
Any news on the production front?


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:57 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:
I guess this thread took on a whole other life than what was originally intended...  :?  :roll:

Somehow I am not surprised in the least.  :wink:

However; My interest in the original intent of this thread remains unchanged.
Three years ago (perhaps even more) the DVD box was in the proofing stages and the artwork for the DVD was being looked over.
IIRC: The PDF was being looked over by folks all over the globe.
Any news on the production front?


A quick synopsis...

In 2006 I began assembling the project and looking for SF and BB.
By 2008 a box and disc were mocked up and I went out for quotes to cost a project. I also made contact with Basil Barrett, gave him a quick breakdown on progress so far and my view of a viable product. Never went into costs as production quotes hadn't come back, but I probably gave him an indication of my intended production run, and my estimate of possible sales. I forwarded sample files, asked a few questions about the campaign world at large, and the earlier little known TS 'zines. We discussed in outline the extent of his right to grant permission, other perties with vested interest and possible terms and remittence/honourarium levels.
Basil had to explore his options and rights, and between then and now, we fell out of contact. This thread was revived because Basil stumbled upon it again, bumped it, and hey presto, we have a big PDF/Copyright discussion. Basil is off exploring his IP rights again, as I've now pointed out that his original copyright has lapsed and much of the periodical IP has now reverted to original authors/artists, and I now think this is likely to be a Basil Barrett project going forward.



Incidentally, Basil, if you read this - As well as my experience with PDFs etc, I also have Beastentz.com and Beastentz.co.uk at your disposal. You coul re-present a complete package online with Jon Baker's distinctive artwork and a little web expertise. I'm happy to help if you're looking to put together a team.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:20 pm 
 

Mike told me not to post... but hey, I am going to post... it's a long post, I didn't have time to read it for grammar, spelling etc, read it all though before beating me down about some part of it.

First off Mike doesn't know everything that I do when I am working on things, he only gets parts that I talk to him about, he is not privy to all  my emails and phone conversations with people, so when he comments about "Doug" he is working on most of the information, which might also not be enough info at times. So don't get too picky on what he claims about me and what I do, I think he is just trying to defend me, and I appreciate it.

My views on copyright are actually the same as views on ANY item be it physical or "virtual". To me if someone owns a piece of land, and passes it down for 1000 years to their family, it's still owned by the family... that land doesn't become "public domain" just because X years have passed.. same thing with your D&D collection, letters in a chest from your dead relative from 300 years ago, etc. etc. I feel copyright should follow the same rules and even to the extent of a "cure for cancer" ... but also just like someone losing an old chest ie: family buries it and then dies and family doesn't know about it, sells the land to someone else, 100 years later someone finds the chest on their land (ie: the land and it contents were sold long ago and the buried chest is part of the land now) The new owners of the chest do not have to return any part of the contents to the original family and the original family shouldn't have any rights to it (no clue if this is legal etc, just my opinion). Also, squatters could in the past move to land, build, live etc and if no one said anything or objected to them being there, then at some point it was their land and they now owned it..... there are many laws in the land in various states that are no longer enforced, but are still on the books, just never been taken off... and people can push the limits of those laws and either they get ignored, changed or enforced again...

So when it comes to copyright law, it's really the copyright owners' responsibility to press the issue if they wish to protect their property. I am not saying it's legal for someone to infringe on someone's copyright, but if they don't care to stop you from doing so, then obviously they no longer care ... That's what happens with some land owners over time. They have land, people use a small portion to cut across the land to get to town, the owner being nice, doesn't really care.. fast forward XX years and now the town wants to build a road across the same place people use to cut across, it's hard to argue the "public" access to the land and the owner or his family can lose the land with NO money being paid for it... the owner needed to enforce his rights in the beginning, charge a fee, put up a fence etc.

It's against the law to trespass on someone's land, period, be it posted or not. You are to presume that posted or not posted, if it's not your property and it's not public property, then you shouldn't be on the land. But the police, lawyers etc can NOT prosecute you if the OWNER of the land does NOT bring charges against you... so if you are on the owner's land without his permission are you breaking the law ??? since the law is not "broken" until the land owner files charges.. if he never files charges, you never broke the law. Sounds outside the box, but think about it. So I believe it's the same for copyright law. If someone wants to infringe on someone's copyright, let them, heck tell the copyright owner. The copyright owner WILL get involved if they have a problem with it... look at the Hibbs bothers and their module, they got a C&D letter, WotC had a problem and said something about it. They weren't out to "cheat" WotC out of any funds, and WotC didn't lose a penny due to the sale of their module, but WotC said "no". I think all you can do is try your best to contact all copyright owners, speak to those you can, if they all have no problem and you can't get a hold of the rest, print your item and see what happens, if you get a C&D or get your hand slapped, it's a risk you were willing to take (if you aren't willing, don't do it)... I mean it's against the law to cross the street anywhere but at the the light/crosswalk... if you cross elsewhere you risk getting run over, a ticket for J-walking etc, who hasn't taken that risk ? who's been run over and/or gotten a ticket ?

Anyway... so much for that crap...

Story of the digest prints

When NTRPGCon started in 2009, reprinting PotVQ and stuff like that wasn't something the Con was looking to do. My emails with Peter Kerestan go back to 2006. At the time I spoke with Peter on the phone. I asked if it would be okay to scan a nice copy and print PDFs of the Wee Warriors stuff and/or maybe create a limited print run of a fleshed out copy or possibly a deluxe copy with the original scan side by side with fleshed out pages, maybe some history etc in it, have then signed etc etc. Peter had no problems with this and even said he didn't care what I did with it... it was 30+ years ago stuff and just surprised people still were interested. I also discussed if I needed permission from his ex-wife and/or "Morno" (don't remember the dudes actual name at this moment). Peter said I wouldn't need anyone's permission other than his.

I still took the time to call and speak to Peter's ex wife (Judy ?) and she had no problem with it either. Even talked about her mom still using many of the black folders to store paperwork in.

I called "Morno" and the call was very short, basically, he doesn't do that type of work anymore.. wasn't even interested in talking about it. No clue what his problem was, don't really care.

I scanned a nice copy of the PotVQ in very high resolution (why since it's black & white, no clue, just trying to make it nice). I put together a PDF and emailed it to Peter. Then didn't speak to Peter again until 2011.

We of course had to print programs for the 2009 Con, they were small, I did them at home, and they were a pain. Also at the Con, games were run by Tim, Frank, Dennis etc and they brought printed copies of the modules and an idea was born ... we could print these in digest format and make a few bucks splitting the profits with the author of the modules... we needed funding since the Con costs money ...

2010 is in the plans so I also decided, what a perfect way to do the PotVQ and help fund the Con. $10.00 copies, 100 prints, cost was about $5.00/ea we make $500, same for the modules from Special Guests but we only make $250.00 since we split the profits. Problem is, we only sold about 25 copies of the PotVQ at the 2010 Con as well as modules from the Special Guests and had to sell all the rest after the Con online... took over 6 months to get rid of them... still a good deal, just slower return than I'd hoped. Met Steve Winter at the 2010 Con and asked for a contact at WotC so I could speak to someone about possibly reprinting some old tournament modules like Ghost Tower etc... none of the retail release modules, only limited stuff like the tournament modules was my interest... if Wee Warriors said yes, why not WotC ?

Now 2011 comes along... we are printing digest booklets of modules for Steve, Tim, and Dennis... nice thing is, Steve and Dennis allow the Con to keep all the funds... sending emails to contact at WotC, no response after third email, but still looking to print Ghost Tower, need to get it done so print it anyway in hopes of hearing back.. plan on selling it for $20.00 just because it will be way cooler than PotVQ or Dwarven Glory in my personal opinion. Crunch time, Con about to begin, no word still on Ghost Tower.. should I hold them, or should I figure a different way to "sell" them since I have them in hand... decide to give them away instead of selling them.. is it legal, don't really know but still hoping WotC won't care and will say it's okay. Take them to the Con, get rid of 85 (actually only get moneys for 76~79 have to find my notes). Once the word is out, someone contacts WotC since they can't believe they'd give permission for this. I call WotC at this point (still no contact from WotC). I speak to someone that tells me I need to speak to a totally different person than I have been emailing... I get a new email.. I send them an email.. shortly (a few days or so) I get a response telling me I need to talk to someone else again... (WotC doesn't seem to have a clue who I really need to speak with).. I email another person and explain what I want to do, am told no with no details.. I email again with more details hoping to get more info in return. This time I get more details on why and that WotC doesn't do this etc... so I send one last email stating that I have already done it, the modules are already in the hands of others and I won't do it again... never get another email back .. never get a call, never get a C&D letter... so did they really care ? don't know, but I won't try it again even though I don't think they care... why will I not do it again ? not because I am afraid of WotC, not because they said they wouldn't give me permission, because a number of people here had an uproar about it.... that's why I won't try it again.

And to set Mars straight, all the stuff we print is $10.00, has been, will be unless prices go up... I only wanted to do something like Ghost Tower or some other really cool module for $20.00, since that isn't going to happen, anything else will be $10.00 as always.

As to Peter "forgetting" about printing the PotVQ. John January was trying to sell a Dwarven Glory on eBay, someone that knows Peter contacted John and told him that Peter would never give his permission to do that... that person was unaware of anything Peter and I discussed. John called me, I called Peter since the original email address I had for him was no longer good (he was working at a college in Arkansas at the time, I believe he has since moved to Nevada this year as his NEW email is now no longer active nor his phone again... so let's hope he comes to the Con since I can't get in touch with him again) anyway I spoke to Peter and reviewed our conversation. He remembered the PDF discussion and the copy I sent him, not the printing it portion. I reviewed the discussion again, explained that I only did as per the conversation and printed 100 copies digest format only of PotVQ and DG to help fund the Con. He then said that was not a problem and he'd like a printed copy of each.. so I sent him my copies - after all the trouble I don't even have copies... I invited him to the Con, said he wanted to come, and I also advised we might print the Misty Ilse as well. No clue why Peter only remembered part of what we discussed, don't care why we didn't remember, if he tells me we can't do it, I'll not do it, for the moment, it's legal and I am working within what we discussed... even though he originally said he didn't care what I did with it, I am keeping to 100 printed copies in digest format only. I think Peter could set it up as POD and allow people to buy digest, full size etc copies and they'd still sell here and there if he wanted to still make a few bucks on this old stuff... it's still his product, I don't own the copyright.

So now you have my view on copyright, and more info on Wee Warriors reprints and the GT stuff.

I wish someone could take the time to flesh out the PotVQ to make it real "complete" module. Then I'd love to print a full size copy with a scan of each original page next to the new fleshed out page and a bit of history in the module about the product, Wee Warriors, Peter etc...  then Peter could sign them at the Con in 2012. but alas probably no time to get this done by the next Con.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:00 pm 
 

Truly bizarre logic. It sounds as if your philosophy is (or was, anyway) that if the copyright owner doesn't expressly forbid you to reprint something, you have tacit permission. Generally speaking, I think the assumption should be the opposite, i.e., that unless one has express written permission to reprint a copyrighted work, then it's a violation, hence the statement to that effect on the copyright page in most books. The guideline shouldn't be, "I can do this unless someone objects, as long as I feel it's for a good cause," it should be (is), "I'm infringing a copyright if I reprint something and don't have express permission to do so." The "express" part is fairly crucial here. Peter saying, "I don't care what you do," is hardly enough. And the wrong-headedness of the Ghost Tower thing is obvious.

I can't fathom how anyone can see it any other way than Mars articulated pages back. Any perspective other than, "The copyright owner makes the rules, and you don't assume any permission not explicitly given," is self-serving, or at least wishful thinking.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:56 pm 
 

You read it the way you wanted to I guess...

What I am telling you is this.

Some laws can be enforced by the police etc.. ie: you break a law and the police can enforce it whether someone files charges or not.

Other laws are not "broken" until someone presses charges... I am not saying it's legal, I am not saying it's okay to do, I am not saying the law hasn't really been broken at all... I am saying, unless someone presses their rights, you aren't going to get in trouble...

If you park at a parking meter and don't pay, IF a cop sees you, he will write you a ticket... OR if someone calls the police you might get a ticket... ie: if you get caught... not what I am talking about... on the other hand, if you punch your wife in the face, that is assault... doesn't matter if the police see it or not... they won't take you to jail unless your wife presses charges for assault.... (in some circumstances if the police believe your wife is in continued danger of assault and there is also repeated history of same, they can take you off to jail) ... but assault, which is illegal, isn't really assault if the party being hurt doesn't file charges... even though the assault law was broken.

So, all I mean to say is, copyright law is there. You are not suppose to break that law. If you want to reprint something and you have spoken to the copyright owner via whatever means.. email, phone call, letter etc. and the owner says "no you can't do it" then of course you should not do it. If the owner won't reply, won't give you the time of day, won't bother to respond, then give it a try and see what happens... if you get smacked for it, then don't do it again since the smack could be a C&D or it could be a lawsuit or jail time...

In the case of Wee Warriors, Peter said I could make the PDF, said I could flesh it out and print copies etc.. He agreed to everything we spoke about... then didn't hear from me for 5 years... maybe that's why he didn't "remember" .. maybe he thought I dropped the idea... but when I called him back about it in July, he had no problems with any of it and remembered the phone calls... so [Peter saying, "I don't care what you do," is hardly enough] is incorrect... and again, if Peter had said that he didn't want me to do it, I would not. I also would have been more than happy to give him the $1000 made on selling the PotVQ & Dwarven Glory if he had asked just as well as I'd give WotC the $1580.00 I received for the Ghost Towers if they want it. (I actually donated the entire $1318 in profit from the GT booklets to something else so the Con got no funds from it after all)

Again, I am not suggesting anyone break any laws. I am only saying do things knowing there is a risk and some laws aren't "broken" until someone presses the issue.

There are other things I'd like the Con to reprint, and I am working to get consent from the proper copyright holders. Will I attempt to reprint something I don't actually have "yes" or "it's okay" for, probably not... but it really depends... if it's a module my friend wrote and printed 20 copies of in 1982 and he is now dead, was an only child, never married and his parents are dead as well.. I might just print it anyway and see if I get in trouble....

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:02 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp wrote:I wish someone could take the time to flesh out the PotVQ to make it real "complete" module. Then I'd love to print a full size copy with a scan of each original page next to the new fleshed out page and a bit of history in the module about the product, Wee Warriors, Peter etc...  then Peter could sign them at the Con in 2012.


Get with a couple of the OSR bloggers that come to NTRPGCon (I can think of three off the top of my head).  Ask them if they are interested in helping with something similar to the One Page Dungeon Contest.  Give them reprint copies of PotVQ and have them ask for submissions from the blogosphere to fill in all the rooms/encounters etc.  Have Mike, myself, and a couple of other locals go through all the submissions and pick out the best.  Free copies for the ones that get picked.

And if you wanted to raise some serious interest and advertise the convention even more, you could give away an original copy to the person with the best idea (you could stand to give one away).  Of course people would have to be present at the con to win.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:06 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:Mike told me not to post... but hey, I am going to post... it's a long post, I didn't have time to read it for grammar, spelling etc, read it all though before beating me down about some part of it.

Thanks for doing so, Doug.

ScketreWhisp® wrote:...since the law is not "broken" until the land owner files charges.. if he never files charges, you never broke the law. Sounds outside the box, but think about it. So I believe it's the same for copyright law.

Once more around the block, sorry.

U.S. law, as written, has been broken - but to pursue the charge would require WotC to submit a statement as part of the presentence report. That is not the same as saying the law has not been broken unless the (c) owner files charges. It's a criminal offence once the total value goes over $2,500, which is why I tried to get eBay to pull Gnat's auction before that was exceeded (multiplied out by the number of copies) and was called a "whiny Wendy" by Mike for doing so.
I linked you the legislation at the time; viewtopic.php?p=182507&highlight=#182507
=> http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/113/2319 / http://trac.syr.edu/laws/17/17USC00506.html - with up to an extra couple of years if there's "commercial advantage" rather than straight-forward "reproduction or distribution".

ScketreWhisp® wrote:I wish someone could take the time to flesh out the PotVQ to make it real "complete" module.

+1, as I'd written before a few times but not heard back (as for DG, too). The trilogy (and other refs. such as VF) /really/ deserves to be worked up as a more "polished" campaign setting.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:17 pm 
 

ScketreWhisp® wrote:You read it the way you wanted to I guess...

What I am telling you is this.

Some laws can be enforced by the police etc.. ie: you break a law and the police can enforce it whether someone files charges or not.

Other laws are not "broken" until someone presses charges... I am not saying it's legal, I am not saying it's okay to do, I am not saying the law hasn't really been broken at all... I am saying, unless someone presses their rights, you aren't going to get in trouble...

If you park at a parking meter and don't pay, IF a cop sees you, he will write you a ticket... OR if someone calls the police you might get a ticket... ie: if you get caught... not what I am talking about... on the other hand, if you punch your wife in the face, that is assault... doesn't matter if the police see it or not... they won't take you to jail unless your wife presses charges for assault.... (in some circumstances if the police believe your wife is in continued danger of assault and there is also repeated history of same, they can take you off to jail) ... but assault, which is illegal, isn't really assault if the party being hurt doesn't file charges... even though the assault law was broken.

So, all I mean to say is, copyright law is there. You are not suppose to break that law. If you want to reprint something and you have spoken to the copyright owner via whatever means.. email, phone call, letter etc. and the owner says "no you can't do it" then of course you should not do it. If the owner won't reply, won't give you the time of day, won't bother to respond, then give it a try and see what happens... if you get smacked for it, then don't do it again since the smack could be a C&D or it could be a lawsuit or jail time...

In the case of Wee Warriors, Peter said I could make the PDF, said I could flesh it out and print copies etc.. He agreed to everything we spoke about... then didn't hear from me for 5 years... maybe that's why he didn't "remember" .. maybe he thought I dropped the idea... but when I called him back about it in July, he had no problems with any of it and remembered the phone calls... so [Peter saying, "I don't care what you do," is hardly enough] is incorrect... and again, if Peter had said that he didn't want me to do it, I would not. I also would have been more than happy to give him the $1000 made on selling the PotVQ & Dwarven Glory if he had asked just as well as I'd give WotC the $1580.00 I received for the Ghost Towers if they want it. (I actually donated the entire $1318 in profit from the GT booklets to something else so the Con got no funds from it after all)

Again, I am not suggesting anyone break any laws. I am only saying do things knowing there is a risk and some laws aren't "broken" until someone presses the issue.

There are other things I'd like the Con to reprint, and I am working to get consent from the proper copyright holders. Will I attempt to reprint something I don't actually have "yes" or "it's okay" for, probably not... but it really depends... if it's a module my friend wrote and printed 20 copies of in 1982 and he is now dead, was an only child, never married and his parents are dead as well.. I might just print it anyway and see if I get in trouble....


I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that assaulting your wife who is too afraid to call the police, camping in my backyard when I'm not home and won't know about it, and reprinting copyrighted material without permission, are all wrong, whether or not you're actually prosecuted. It's about ethics, not risk of being caught...

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding your position, and I don't think I am, it would be okay with you if someone downloaded and printed out pirated .pdfs of the entire TSR catalog and distributed copies to their friends for $1 apiece, because the likelihood of WotC pressing charges in negligible.


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