Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:50 am 
 

As an aside - for any prospective publishers out there - If I were a publisher, the one question I would ask myself is, "What do Games Workshop and Wizards of the Coast understand about the games industry that I don't yet know?" Once they know the answer to that question (and fully appreciate its import) they'll be able to turn their businesses around.


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 am 
 

Basil Barrett wrote:Errr, slow down a bit here boys :)

Nobody's said that this project or something very much like it won't go ahead - well not me anyway - it's just that I've been out of the loop a long time and apart from some initial discussions with Ian (that ended in a lost contact only just re-established) had no real idea of what and when was even being discussed. As soon as I can grab some time I'll talk through some possible ways forward with Ian and we'll see what can be done.

I can't possibly even read, let alone reply to, all of the individual points, questions and bullshit that has been raised on this. Can I just say that all of the authors of the TS! articles/scenarios/solos etc. are known to me personally in the event of permissions being required - there's only one written contribution that I think might pose a problem with tracing author. The CDM series is not currently under discussion (athough Allen and Judith are both also aware that the idea has been discussed).

Be patient guys, I have to feed my kids, teach my dance lessons, spend time with my partner before I shuffle off to oblivion.... Making vasts piles of cash is hardly my highest priority or TS! would never have been published in the way that we chose to do it. Isn't it enough to know that we're still alive??? :)


I am glad you posted an update despite all the bickering and I very much hope this project sees the light of day.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:47 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The games industry has been stagnent in the UK for more than a decade now, with practically zero emerging tallent.

On second though, you obviously have no interest or knowledge of what is actually happening in the UK.

I can only assume you are specifically focused on D&D related products. The Uk RPG Indie scene has exploded over the last few years, with the likes of Cubicle 7 and Pelgrane actually reaching a mass audience.

Cubicle 7 are also experts in re-printing good older material.

It might be worth Basil looking at them before making any decisions.

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KAL


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:18 am 
 

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of members here would be up for buying physical paper copies of TS! 1-12 and PDFs of same if a publisher can get them to market for £3 a copy, or £30 a boxed set. There are plenty of members here with expertise in paper publishing, but none in the UK that I'm aware of. if Basil can find a paper publisher here in the UK, at the right price point, a collector's set, or individual digests, whatever, would be most welcome.

I'd certainly throw a few hundred pounds at stocking my shelves with that sort of product, and it's the sort of thing I'd be happy enough to sit on, on account of there always being a market for it.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:01 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one. :roll:


I know you would.  You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down to it for something you wanted (or could profit from), you'd stab him in the back.  If such a product became available, of course it would breach copyright for thousands of people and you don't care.

No "catch", I just wanted to hear you say it loud and clear that you don't care about copyright laws.  If there is only a slim chance of getting caught with minor consequences then you would do it - regardless of the law.  

Badmike wrote:Except your point is a meaningless utopian fantasy. The law already had a chance to do that, and they didn't, ON PURPOSE. They don't CARE if the property is being used, developed, or sold. All they care about is extending the copyright another few generations to benefit megabucks corps like Disney, Conde Nast, and others.


My uptopian fantasy is no worse than yours where "fans should dictate when and how a character is developed".  Afterall they paid their $10 to see the movie or buy the book.  I'm still not sure if your anger is directed at megacorps or just the US government or the US constitution.  Megacorps are just doing what is logical for them to do - follow legal means to protect their interests.  The us government lets them do it and the us constitution has facility to allow for it.

I mean, do you REALLY know we got all the permissions necessary to publish Tim Kask's stuff? Did we really ever speak to Peter Kerestan? Maybe Steve Winter doesn't know we stuck his 2010 adventures up for sale. Trusting us at this point would seem to be a really risky endeavor.


Your right, trusting that NTRPG would do the right thing is a risky gamble.  In 2 years, you have managed to completely ignore copyright by producing fake copies of Ghost Tower.  You reproduce Wee Warriors items  reported as being legitimate but then when Peter Kerestan finds out, he has no recollection of giving his permission and has to be "reminded of the agreement".  I'm guessing that means there was no cheque mailed out for any compensation or he would have remembered that (so much for compensating the little guy).  You did also get Morno's approval too right?  And the increase in price from $10 to $20?  What kind of price can you put on an instant collectible anyway right.

'd much rather have supporters than speculators buying our stuff, keep your money.


Ironic statement considering you make a living as a reseller.  I'd much rather support the authors/artists of the work than a con with questionable ethics.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:28 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one.
Mars wrote:You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down to it for something you wanted (or could profit from), you'd stab him in the back.  If such a product became available, of course it would breach copyright for thousands of people and you don't care.

Hey, it's not that clear cut. I'd buy one too. That doesn't mean I'd make one, nor that I wouldn't buy 'zines when they came up on eBay. Some of these hypothetical questions are getting a little rediculous. Things are not that black and white. Recognising the grey areas in life, and making your own moral judgements on why they exist and the moral implications of taking one position or another does not make people bad or good, or write or wrong. If someone buys the hypothetical $1 Fanzine DVD, their action of purchasing does not do damage to the IP owners, nor does it validate or justify the personal who manyfactured it. One person's crime of copyright breach cannot be passed down the chain to the buyers, whether they knew or not.

If that were the case, then we have a lot of working class AHs in the UK that bought the Sun and the News of the World knowing, encouraging and approving the invasion of privicy that so spectaculary came to be talked about. Every reader knew what their paper of choice was doing many years ago. They are all happy they continued to buy, all happy to support and encourage crime in the UK, and most of them really couldn't give a F, purely on account of, "Well, it wasn't me who did the deed, I was just a buyer." I see no difference in Mike buying a $1 DVD knowing in all likelihood that people's copyrights would have been breached for him to get his DVD, and all the billions of AHs around the world who buy News International products or watch their TV, knowingly supporting his companies' criminal activities.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:48 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:One person's crime of copyright breach cannot be passed down the chain to the buyers, whether they knew or not.


I think the both the hooker and her pimp can be charged :)

mbassoc2003 wrote: I see no difference in Mike buying a $1 DVD knowing in all likelihood that people's copyrights would have been breached for him to get his DVD, and all the billions of AHs around the world who buy News International products or watch their TV, knowingly supporting his companies' criminal activities.


You are absolutely right.  You can't police everything, but you try and take a stance for the things that you care about.  Its why on the Acaeum we have a thread to report people selling illegal PDFs on Ebay, etc.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:45 pm 
 

Mars wrote:
Badmike wrote:
And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one.

I know you would.  You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down to it for something you wanted (or could profit from), you'd stab him in the back.  If such a product became available, of course it would breach copyright for thousands of people and you don't care.

No "catch", I just wanted to hear you say it loud and clear that you don't care about copyright laws.  If there is only a slim chance of getting caught with minor consequences then you would do it - regardless of the law.  


I just thought I'd give you what you wanted, you'd been fishing for it so long, so I threw a ridiculous extreme situation out there for the hell of it.  Also, you should know if I found a treasure chest full of pirate gold in my backyard one day I'd probably keep it also without telling the authorities, that melted down gold could pay for a lot of years in college for my relatives and I really don't need the government taking a chunk.

         
Badmike wrote:
Except your point is a meaningless utopian fantasy. The law already had a chance to do that, and they didn't, ON PURPOSE. They don't CARE if the property is being used, developed, or sold. All they care about is extending the copyright another few generations to benefit megabucks corps like Disney, Conde Nast, and others.


My uptopian fantasy is no worse than yours where "fans should dictate when and how a character is developed".  Afterall they paid their $10 to see the movie or buy the book.  I'm still not sure if your anger is directed at megacorps or just the US government or the US constitution.  Megacorps are just doing what is logical for them to do - follow legal means to protect their interests.  The us government lets them do it and the us constitution has facility to allow for it.


I don't have to like it, I don't like it, but there's nothing I can do except bitch about it. We just have opposed opinions on this and are not going to change each others mind (btw, Doug is pretty much exactly on your side when it comes to this argument, we've had several discussions about it).  

         
I mean, do you REALLY know we got all the permissions necessary to publish Tim Kask's stuff? Did we really ever speak to Peter Kerestan? Maybe Steve Winter doesn't know we stuck his 2010 adventures up for sale. Trusting us at this point would seem to be a really risky endeavor.


Your right, trusting that NTRPG would do the right thing is a risky gamble.  In 2 years, you have managed to completely ignore copyright by producing fake copies of Ghost Tower.  You reproduce Wee Warriors items  reported as being legitimate but then when Peter Kerestan finds out, he has no recollection of giving his permission and has to be "reminded of the agreement".  I'm guessing that means there was no cheque mailed out for any compensation or he would have remembered that (so much for compensating the little guy).  You did also get Morno's approval too right?  And the increase in price from $10 to $20?  What kind of price can you put on an instant collectible anyway right.


I'm shocked you dealt with us then, but hey, the lure of an item like a POTVQ or Dwarven Glory reprint (multiple copies, at that) was so great you were able to ignore your ethics for awhile, just admit it.  I'm betting you won't rush out in a righteous rage and burn the copies you have should I admit here we didn't have the rights for anything we published....

...but that would be a lie. Pete has given us his permission and refused to accept any compensation (except for copies of the digests for himself, since he no longer owns any copies).  Pete is one of those guys that has absolutely zero interest in what he did 30+ years ago and is actually surprised anyone cares enough to collect those old games he wrote and published.  He actually did forget he had given us rights to reprint Wee Warriors items when an associate saw a copy for sale on ebay and contacted him without knowing the entire story.  Doug called and reminded him, he remembered, and he again gave us his approval.  I don't think he'd be appearing as a special guest at the 2012 con if he felt we had ripped him off or treated him wrongly.  BTW, just to cover our bases, several years ago both Pete's ex-wife Judy and Morno were also contacted and approval secured although we were assured by Pete he maintained full rights to the material, we wanted to cover our bases.  But personally, I don't see how you can ever be absolutely satisfied with buying anything reprinted without a twinge of guilt.

Ironic statement considering you make a living as a reseller.  I'd much rather support the authors/artists of the work than a con with questionable ethics.


Go ahead, we don't mind. Meanwhile we'll continue to legally get hard to find collectibles into the hands of fans who cannot afford to pay the inflated prices the market demands.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:48 am 
 

Mike doesn't need my support on this forum, but this topic has crossed into the twilight zone if he has come under attack both personally and as someone somehow hurting the hobby or the people past, present or future who are creating material for our shared addiction.

When I think of the people who make this forum a great place to visit, Mike is at the top of the list, and besides any posts relating to sports or bacon I make sure to click on the ones that have his name.

Mike should be getting an award for what he has done for this hobby in the 15+ years that I've known him.

Just my 2c here (along with another $4.98 in pennys in a sock ready to beat the crap out of somone).


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:58 am 
 

JasonZavoda wrote:Just my 2c here (along with another $4.98 in pennys in a sock ready to beat the crap out of somone).


There is more of a solid thump and jingle from Guineas...


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:07 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Also, you should know if I found a treasure chest full of pirate gold in my backyard one day I'd probably keep it also without telling the authorities, that melted down gold could pay for a lot of years in college for my relatives and I really don't need the government taking a chunk.


The descendants of the pirate's family have a moral and ethical right to that gold.  They are the ones that have suffered and had to live with the disgrace of their ancestor.

I'm betting you won't rush out in a righteous rage and burn the copies you have should I admit here we didn't have the rights for anything we published.... ...but that would be a lie.


If you can prove it, I'll burn them all.  But I know they are legit (I ask and check).  I still don't know what to do with Ghost Tower though - burning has come to mind, buying an original has also come to mind (then its fair use).  It's these kind of actions that makes me question stuff and no I won't stop doing that.

I'm shocked you dealt with us then, but hey, the lure of an item like a POTVQ or Dwarven Glory reprint (multiple copies, at that) was so great you were able to ignore your ethics for awhile, just admit it.


I always buy extras and offer them (at cost) to my usual crowd of international buyers who due to timezones or whatever seem to miss them .  If there is something left over then yep I sell em.  I think I had 1 PotVQ left over and sold it on Ebay for $100?  I think everyone must have got in on DG because I still have an extra couple or two.  If an Acaeum member is interested in any of these I usually just sell them at cost.

But personally, I don't see how you can ever be absolutely satisfied with buying anything reprinted without a twinge of guilt.


I check.  I am probably up to about a dozen authors who had no idea someone was reprinting their works claiming they had the rights to do so.

Meanwhile we'll continue to legally get hard to find collectibles into the hands of fans who cannot afford to pay the inflated prices the market demands.


In terms of old small press items, I'll bet that I am still way ahead in the number of copies I've found, sold cheaper than "market value" (i.e. significantly cheaper than the copies I have bought for my collection) and put in the hands of fans and collectors.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:12 am 
 

ah Jason, nothing like a bit of the old ultra violence to enliven and bring clarity to the discussion eh?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:14 am 
 

stratochamp wrote:ah Jason, nothing like a bit of the old ultra violence to enliven and bring clarity to the discussion eh?


LOL

JasonZavoda wrote:Just my 2c here (along with another $4.98 in pennys in a sock ready to beat the crap out of somone).


2 cents more than you've made on Phantasy Conclave I'd bet.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:19 am 
 

Mars wrote: I think everyone must have got in on DG because I still have an extra couple or two.  If an Acaeum member is interested in any of these I usually just sell them at cost.


I'd take one, at cost. I have none of the reprint stuff, figuring I'd rather spend the extra money (which is seemingly getting not that much more) for a true collectible (ie, original.)


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:21 am 
 

copycat wrote:I'd take one, at cost. I have none of the reprint stuff, figuring I'd rather spend the extra money (which is seemingly getting not that much more) for a true collectible (ie, original.)


Send me your address and I will get you a shipping quote.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:41 am 
 

Mars wrote: You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down...


Your argument lost all coherence several pages ago. At this point, it follows the pattern of demanding answers to questions, but when answers are provided you ignore them & jump to the next demand. In other words, the desperation of someone who just lost an argument.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:58 am 
 

Mars wrote:I think the both the hooker and her pimp can be charged  

It is also illegal to both buy, sell and manufacture drugs. But the law in our counries defines what is a crime and what is not. It is illegal to pimp another person for prostitution. It is illegal to be a buyer or a seller in a drug transaction. However, it is not illegal to buy a document that infringes another person's copyright, nor is it illegal to buy a newspaper reporting from criminal means.

Morally, you are trying to argue that someone buying a copyright infringing product is comitting a similar crime to a pimp or a drug purchaser. In which case, Verve fans should be jailed for buying the copyright infringing symphony, and Sun readers should be jailed for being Sun readers.

I don't quite see how you can stack that argument up.
Mars wrote:You are absolutely right.  You can't police everything, but you try and take a stance for the things that you care about.  Its why on the Acaeum we have a thread to report people selling illegal PDFs on Ebay, etc.

That's because the seller is committing a crime. We are flagging up someone committing a crime and then reporting those persons to eBay and/or the relevant IP holders. Taking action against a person committing a criminal act. On Acaeum, we do not list illegal PDFs for sale on eBay and then post the names and addresses of those buyers who bite, naming and shaming the buyers, because by buying the PDFs they are committing no crime, and by listing PDFs for the purposes of naming and shaming buyers, we would in fact be breaking the law.

Only the manufacturer of an illegal PDF comits a crime, and only when he falls outside of what is permitted by the law. No other crime is being committer by anyone. It is wrong to label everyone else for one person's actions. Anyone possession, buying or selling a Dragon Magazine Archive on eBay is doing so knowing they are distributing illegal copyrighted materials. But, no-one is breaking the law, and no-one to my mind is doing anything wrong. The only person who broke the law was the manufacturer, and any settlement between them and infringed parties takes into account future damages the products release may bring about. That's certainly the way the law works in the UK. I can only assume it to be similar in the US and Canada.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:25 am 
 

Mars wrote:Badmike wrote:
Also, you should know if I found a treasure chest full of pirate gold in my backyard one day I'd probably keep it also without telling the authorities, that melted down gold could pay for a lot of years in college for my relatives and I really don't need the government taking a chunk.


The descendants of the pirate's family have a moral and ethical right to that gold.  They are the ones that have suffered and had to live with the disgrace of their ancestor.


Well at least we both have a sense of humor intact.

Meanwhile we'll continue to legally get hard to find collectibles into the hands of fans who cannot afford to pay the inflated prices the market demands.

In terms of old small press items, I'll bet that I am still way ahead in the number of copies I've found, sold cheaper than "market value" (i.e. significantly cheaper than the copies I have bought for my collection) and put in the hands of fans and collectors.



That's great, and we are trying to do the same thing.  Whether we charge, $10 or $20, having a digest sized reprint of POTVQ is a pretty darn cool thing when the originals run to far more. I think that's pretty far off "market value", and as stated before, if we were just about making money we wouldn't have limited the amount sold because I suspect we could still sell 5-6 a month at $20+ a pop if we choose to keep printing them up.

The amount of time, effort and diligence Doug took tracking down Pete Kerestan, Judy Kerestan (or whatever her name is now) and Morno; and securing the Wee Warriors rights was amazing and he should be commended for that (because anyone else could have done so the last 30 years yet didn't).  Mark when you do the same thing you often are finding already printed items that still haven't been distributed; you aren't also going through the hassle of securing rights and making pdfs of them for sale, nor reprinting the items.  You are simply getting ahold of extra copies that have lain around for decades (much like I did with the Tabletop Warriors booklets) and either selling or distributing them.  What Doug and Ian are doing is much more difficult, time demanding and frustrating than you are doing, and far more open to failure and second guessing. Not to denigrate in the slightest what you do by tracking down these older publishers and writers and acquiring their old stock, since you are providing a great service to the community, but what Doug (and Ian) are doing is far more complex with a lot more wrangling necessary. That's why I'm open to giving them the benefit of the doubt more often than not...

I think now Mark and I have made our positions clear and I promise now I will stop banging on this dead horse because there is no reason to get personal.  On a professional level I think Mark provides a service to the gaming community and if I have insinuated otherwise it was just me being snarky;  I think we are always going to disagree on certain philosophical points.  We should probably both just drop this discussion as it has ranged far afield, if Mark agrees, and this will be my final post on this issue here.

Mike B.


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