Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:01 pm 
 

Here's the ethical basis for limited IP rights:

   '"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."

   -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Isaac McPherson, Monticello, August 13, 1813'

Language is a virus. When you view another's work, it is absorbed by your mind & permanently becomes part of your imagination. When we were young, we played a game called D&D which subsequently became a part of us - absolute ownership would be tantamount to slavery. Hasbro does not own me.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:06 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote:'Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution, known as the Copyright Clause, empowers the United States Congress:
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."'


The key phrase being "for limited Times," which originally was just a few years for an author's copyright.


Good to know there is nothing constitutionally wrong with "limited Times" being 1 year or 1000 years or 1,000,000 years.  Nice bit of keeping your options open.

For example, "useful Arts" does not refer to artistic endeavors, but rather to the work of artisans, people skilled in a manufacturing craft; "Science" is not limited to fields of modern scientific inquiry, but to all knowledge, including philosophy and literature.


The spirit of this sounds more as a means of making sure "progress" continues in various fields of study.  Not sure if this even applies to entertainment.  Is Mickey Mouse considered an "artistic endeavor" or a piece of "knowledge"?

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:10 pm 
 

Mars wrote:Is Mickey Mouse considered an "artistic endeavor" or a piece of "knowledge"?


The answer is on this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=189669

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:23 pm 
 

So, are you saying if someone discovered a cure for cancer, and they patented the process of creating the ensime or initiating the molecular bond, they should then be permitted to have the rights and limit the use and distribution of all cancer care for all time?

In your untopia, presumably all football viewing rights, and all rights to play and/or discuss the game would be owned by one corporation. All motor vehicles and all means of transport throughout the world would be owned by another. All food stuffs and the rights to grow those foods would be controlled and bought from a single individual family, and everyone on earth would owe their entire lives to a few corporations controlling all owned IP.

Wasn't slavery abolished in the US?
Isn't this the US taking steps back towards legalising slavery again?
I bet Martin Luther King didn't think America would begin dismantling his life's work so quickly.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:44 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:So, are you saying if someone discovered a cure for cancer, and they patented the process of creating the ensime or initiating the molecular bond, they should then be permitted to have the rights and limit the use and distribution of all cancer care for all time?


No that is a useful piece of information and is covered under Patent Law not copyright law.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:49 pm 
 

Errr, slow down a bit here boys :)

Nobody's said that this project or something very much like it won't go ahead - well not me anyway - it's just that I've been out of the loop a long time and apart from some initial discussions with Ian (that ended in a lost contact only just re-established) had no real idea of what and when was even being discussed. As soon as I can grab some time I'll talk through some possible ways forward with Ian and we'll see what can be done.

I can't possibly even read, let alone reply to, all of the individual points, questions and bullshit that has been raised on this. Can I just say that all of the authors of the TS! articles/scenarios/solos etc. are known to me personally in the event of permissions being required - there's only one written contribution that I think might pose a problem with tracing author. The CDM series is not currently under discussion (athough Allen and Judith are both also aware that the idea has been discussed).

Be patient guys, I have to feed my kids, teach my dance lessons, spend time with my partner before I shuffle off to oblivion.... Making vasts piles of cash is hardly my highest priority or TS! would never have been published in the way that we chose to do it. Isn't it enough to know that we're still alive??? :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 pm 
 

Basil Barrett wrote:Be patient guys, I have to feed my kids, teach my dance lessons, spend time with my partner before I shuffle off to oblivion.... Making vasts piles of cash is hardly my highest priority or TS! would never have been published in the way that we chose to do it. Isn't it enough to know that we're still alive??? :)


I'm happy to know you are alive and wish you could make piles of cash with TS!  

all of the authors of the TS! articles/scenarios/solos etc. are known to me personally in the event of permissions being required - there's only one written contribution that I think might pose a problem with tracing author.


That leaves me hopeful something can be done right.  If you need some help tracking someone down let me know and I can see if I can help.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:13 pm 
 

Well, I for one hope the project reaches fruition and I would pay for an electronic archive, whether downloadable or on a cd/DVD. If CDMA can be added to it, then woo-hoo! :)

Ian, I have a full set of TS! as per your earlier post, would you make me an electronic copy for my personal back-up? ;)


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm 
 

Having the full set in print form, I don't really need them in electronic form, other than maybe printing out some of the pull-out things time to time... but if the CDM stuff can be added, it would be more considered, as I do not yet have them in real paper.

Not sure how that could be done, as I'd imagine GW has their mitts in the pie.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:26 am 
 

Mars wrote:
One simple question.  If Ian released this project today, would you buy it?


Since Ian has already stated numerous times he wouldn't publish this unless all the particulars were taken care of, that's an absurd question meant only to "catch" me in some sort of compromising position.  I'll reply to any serious inquiries and I'm not shy (as you have already seen) about stating my opinion, but let's go easy on the "what ifs".  

And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one. :roll:

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:56 am 
 

Mars wrote:

Who says every fan, or Joe Blow on the street that wants to pump out merchandise has the "best interest" at heart?  You are not going to get a consensus on who has the "best interest" so who should decide what happens?

Obviously, according to you, the answer would be "the richest guy with the most expensive lawyers, fuck the fans who have been buying the stuff for decades."

         
        
Mars wrote:
and lower the time period to which it gets released if you are not "active" (in using the copyright character).


Again thanks for supporting my point.  These characters were not being actively used and would have fallen into the public domain earlier under what I proposed.  This is very different from a company that is actively using the character.


Except your point is a meaningless utopian fantasy.  The law already had a chance to do that, and they didn't, ON PURPOSE. They don't CARE if the property is being used, developed, or sold. All they care about is extending the copyright another few generations to benefit megabucks corps like Disney, Conde Nast, and others.

You see, under your philosophy, if Disney wanted to but out movies with Mickey screwing Goofy and Minnie Mouse, it would ok because they paid for the right to do so, regardless of those generations of fans and kids who love the characters.  So your objection isn't on any moral or ethical grounds but purely one of "pay to play".  Once again, for many years it was assumed that a creator's heirs could make themselves filthy rich in the lifetime +70 years that existed, why did we suddenly think "yeh, an extra 25 years is a much better deal"...it wasn't because of a sudden feeling of outrage that a creator's great-great grandchildren were being cut out of the picture, I assure you.
         
         
BadMike wrote:
I think the best thing would be if you didn't purchase any product that Ian puts out.

Thanks for your concern for my well being but unfortunately, I'm hoping to get some other projects underway with Ian.


And I double talk? That's actually pretty funny.

Glad my $400+ of support could help you guys out in the con's infancy. Now that its up and going I guess its easy to be kicked aside.  No worries, I probably can't afford the inflation on NTRPG merchandise this year ($10 first year, $20 second year, $30 this year?)


Knowing how you now stand on this issue I just can't see you blindly purchasing our material anymore...I mean, do you REALLY know we got all the permissions necessary to publish Tim Kask's stuff?  Did we really ever speak to Peter Kerestan?  Maybe Steve Winter doesn't know we stuck his 2010 adventures up for sale. Trusting us at this point would seem to be a really risky endeavor. Everything we've published so far has completely sold out anyway so it's not like we have a lack of people interested in the product. I'd much rather have supporters than speculators buying our stuff, keep your money.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:04 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
In your untopia, presumably all football viewing rights, and all rights to play and/or discuss the game would be owned by one corporation.



That's actually an interesting example Ian. In the US, the rights to all NFL football games are owned by ONE entity that paid for the rights many, many years ago for an extended length of time (100 years or something like that?). And you know what? THEY SUCK DICK.  They will NOT, even after decades of pleading from fans, release individual games for sale, nor will they ok any sorts of broadcasts of any sort of past recordings of games for any reasons (even non-profit). So, that means if I would love to have a copy of the first Cowboy game I saw in person (in 1970 vs the Cardinals at the Cotton Bowl), or the first Thanksgiving day Cowboy game I saw in person in 1977, I am absolutely shit out of luck as is every single other NFL fan of any team that would love to have copies for personal viewing pleasure. They have just decided that for maximum profit they will keep the games under wraps forever, only broadcasting them in truncated form on the NFL network (not ordinary games, though, mind you, but only games of importance like playoff games, so any regular season games Imight want to see I never will be able to...).  It's all perfectly legal of course but is the ultimate slap in the face to fans and an example of what happens when one owner/corporation dictates policy forever without any input from fans.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:31 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The whole problem in the UK is that publishers refuse to publish in a user friendly manner. They don't get that they have to sell the buyer what he wants to buy, at the correct price and at a suitable quality in order to be successfull. For too long companies (particularly in the UK) have been publishing low quality sh!t written by unimaginative cannon fodder, and editted and typeset by some of the most illiterate and poorly educated publishing staff they can find.


What utter rubbish. So if somone publishes a game you like but you consider too expensive then its OK to rip it off?

Many UK rpg publishers provide a free pdf with a purchased hardcopy, if you buy at a convention or from their website.

You only contacted Basil because *I* got his email address for you. You claimed to have been looking for it for 2 years - finding it took me less than 2 weeks. Where did you look for it Ian, in your back garden? Under the table? I bet you were really disappointed when I sent it to you.

Cheers,
KAL


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:14 am 
 

Versimilitude wrote:What utter rubbish. So if somone publishes a game you like but you consider too expensive then its OK to rip it off?

I don't think I said that, and I don't think many people here believe I have ever supported or encouraged the ripping off of Publishers or their authors. You don't seem to have read the thread. We have pretty clear copyright laws in this country, and they set out what you can and cannot do, and what you should do in most circumstances. We also have libraries full of case history demonstrating the manner in which the law is applied, how the law is interpretted, and what the consequences are if you breach copyright. I think I made it clear from the beginning that I had begun a process and was following the law in the UK, and some three years on, I continue to follow that law, I have sought to clarify various points with people as I see them (e.g. the lapse of Beast Entz copyright and the reverting ow IP ownership to known authers, etc). This process goes on, and I'm sure anyone involved with a project that is very much in Basil's hands will continue to follow UK law as they understand it. I had thought that was very clear, but you seem to have interpretted things differently.
Versimilitude wrote:Many UK rpg publishers provide a free pdf with a purchased hardcopy, if you buy at a convention or from their website.

That's as maybe, but you were bemoaning UK RPG Publishers finding it hard to make money, and I was point out that the UK RPG industry fell appart when they started publishing sh!t no-one on the whole wanted to buy. It's a billion dollar industry. The majority of that money gravitates towards large corporations, but the talented authors and the intelligent in the industry make a good living at it. There are plenty of really talented publishers putting out well designed products combining the best in art and layout, cartography and authorship. The UK RPG industry finds it so hard because the companies involved either have no talent, no perception of what their prospective customer wants, or cannot figure out how to make something cheap enough that everyone will buy into it. Now, the excuse will be different, in different measures for each publisher, but burrying their heads in the sand and saying, "We produce the best quality products at a good price and no-one is buying because the economy is bad." is quite simpy bullshit. What will their excuses be when the recession is over and they're still peddling the same badly written, badly presented, crap. Or worse, the same well written, overpriced product that the newbies won't jump on on account of cost, and they hike the prices because costs have risen and they figure we can all afford it on account of the recession being over?

A case in point - Catalyst tried to relaunch Battletech. They have a solid game mechanic and an established player base across America and Germany, but the game is dead in the UK. So what do they do? The release a boxed set so expensive people cannot buy into the game, and a series of addon maps for gameplay so expensive people won't buy them. Now that is damn good marketting. They paid product developement and marketing people to do this for them and no-one ever asked anyone if the product would sell to the kids. And yet, they had the very product that would have had kids right across Britain starting to pick up and play Battletech, in thier hands, developed and ready to print, that they could have had on shelves for under a fiver in games stores right around the world.

But hey, it's the recession and the UK games industry is finding it hard to make money right now. That'll be why. Kids just don't want to be spending their money on games these days. Maybe old guys like me are better customers? Maybe that's where the future of RPG gaming in the UK is? Maybe Games Workshop don't have a clue and their success is just a figment of their imagination. Or maybe, just maybe, UK company's product development and marketing people haven't got a fucking clue how to do their jobs. Most publishers in the UK don't seem to give a F about their products anyways, let alone their customers.
Versimilitude wrote:You only contacted Basil because *I* got his email address for you. You claimed to have been looking for it for 2 years - finding it took me less than 2 weeks. Where did you look for it Ian, in your back garden? Under the table? I bet you were really disappointed when I sent it to you.

Not at all. I don't recall exactly who gave me the e-mail address (I had thought it may have been Malc), but I'll take your word for it. I made more progress, and found out more about the background of the campaign setting and the little discussed TS fanzines of '78 than I would have ever found recorded online. I have no animosity towards Basil and no desire to 'rip him off' either. I am glad he is interested in progressing a project and if I can be part of that, so much the better. If not, hey ho. I'll buy a copy and this thread has served to show him how much passion people have for Tortured Souls! As to the extent of my search for the authors, and where and who I contacted, the list includes a number of printing companies, one or two major RPG Publishers, a couple of authors and artists, a goodly spread of parish councils, the ususl 192 online search and public records databases, and many hundreds of unanswered e-mails to folks. And I was not the only one looking for the authers, nor was my search confined to just Basil. The fact that Basil was the one IP owner to have been found does not negate any of the work I did in looking for the others either, as they all have a claim on the IP. I stall have no leads in finding Simon Forrest (other than Basil eluding to the fact that he may have contact with him he could revive). But as I have already said in this thread, the timing has elapsed and the project is now Basil's to progress as he sees fit. I couldn't give a damn about what money it'll make, and that money belongs with the writer, the artist and the publisher regardless. I'd just like to see a PDF Archive of a professional quality on my shelf and be happy I'd pushed the discussion along.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:50 am 
 

As an aside - for any prospective publishers out there - If I were a publisher, the one question I would ask myself is, "What do Games Workshop and Wizards of the Coast understand about the games industry that I don't yet know?" Once they know the answer to that question (and fully appreciate its import) they'll be able to turn their businesses around.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.


Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:52 am 
 

Basil Barrett wrote:Errr, slow down a bit here boys :)

Nobody's said that this project or something very much like it won't go ahead - well not me anyway - it's just that I've been out of the loop a long time and apart from some initial discussions with Ian (that ended in a lost contact only just re-established) had no real idea of what and when was even being discussed. As soon as I can grab some time I'll talk through some possible ways forward with Ian and we'll see what can be done.

I can't possibly even read, let alone reply to, all of the individual points, questions and bullshit that has been raised on this. Can I just say that all of the authors of the TS! articles/scenarios/solos etc. are known to me personally in the event of permissions being required - there's only one written contribution that I think might pose a problem with tracing author. The CDM series is not currently under discussion (athough Allen and Judith are both also aware that the idea has been discussed).

Be patient guys, I have to feed my kids, teach my dance lessons, spend time with my partner before I shuffle off to oblivion.... Making vasts piles of cash is hardly my highest priority or TS! would never have been published in the way that we chose to do it. Isn't it enough to know that we're still alive??? :)


I am glad you posted an update despite all the bickering and I very much hope this project sees the light of day.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:47 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The games industry has been stagnent in the UK for more than a decade now, with practically zero emerging tallent.

On second though, you obviously have no interest or knowledge of what is actually happening in the UK.

I can only assume you are specifically focused on D&D related products. The Uk RPG Indie scene has exploded over the last few years, with the likes of Cubicle 7 and Pelgrane actually reaching a mass audience.

Cubicle 7 are also experts in re-printing good older material.

It might be worth Basil looking at them before making any decisions.

Cheers,
KAL


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:18 am 
 

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of members here would be up for buying physical paper copies of TS! 1-12 and PDFs of same if a publisher can get them to market for £3 a copy, or £30 a boxed set. There are plenty of members here with expertise in paper publishing, but none in the UK that I'm aware of. if Basil can find a paper publisher here in the UK, at the right price point, a collector's set, or individual digests, whatever, would be most welcome.

I'd certainly throw a few hundred pounds at stocking my shelves with that sort of product, and it's the sort of thing I'd be happy enough to sit on, on account of there always being a market for it.


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:01 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one. :roll:


I know you would.  You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down to it for something you wanted (or could profit from), you'd stab him in the back.  If such a product became available, of course it would breach copyright for thousands of people and you don't care.

No "catch", I just wanted to hear you say it loud and clear that you don't care about copyright laws.  If there is only a slim chance of getting caught with minor consequences then you would do it - regardless of the law.  

Badmike wrote:Except your point is a meaningless utopian fantasy. The law already had a chance to do that, and they didn't, ON PURPOSE. They don't CARE if the property is being used, developed, or sold. All they care about is extending the copyright another few generations to benefit megabucks corps like Disney, Conde Nast, and others.


My uptopian fantasy is no worse than yours where "fans should dictate when and how a character is developed".  Afterall they paid their $10 to see the movie or buy the book.  I'm still not sure if your anger is directed at megacorps or just the US government or the US constitution.  Megacorps are just doing what is logical for them to do - follow legal means to protect their interests.  The us government lets them do it and the us constitution has facility to allow for it.

I mean, do you REALLY know we got all the permissions necessary to publish Tim Kask's stuff? Did we really ever speak to Peter Kerestan? Maybe Steve Winter doesn't know we stuck his 2010 adventures up for sale. Trusting us at this point would seem to be a really risky endeavor.


Your right, trusting that NTRPG would do the right thing is a risky gamble.  In 2 years, you have managed to completely ignore copyright by producing fake copies of Ghost Tower.  You reproduce Wee Warriors items  reported as being legitimate but then when Peter Kerestan finds out, he has no recollection of giving his permission and has to be "reminded of the agreement".  I'm guessing that means there was no cheque mailed out for any compensation or he would have remembered that (so much for compensating the little guy).  You did also get Morno's approval too right?  And the increase in price from $10 to $20?  What kind of price can you put on an instant collectible anyway right.

'd much rather have supporters than speculators buying our stuff, keep your money.


Ironic statement considering you make a living as a reseller.  I'd much rather support the authors/artists of the work than a con with questionable ethics.

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Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:28 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one.
Mars wrote:You spout out bleeding heart nonsense for the little guy but then if it came down to it for something you wanted (or could profit from), you'd stab him in the back.  If such a product became available, of course it would breach copyright for thousands of people and you don't care.

Hey, it's not that clear cut. I'd buy one too. That doesn't mean I'd make one, nor that I wouldn't buy 'zines when they came up on eBay. Some of these hypothetical questions are getting a little rediculous. Things are not that black and white. Recognising the grey areas in life, and making your own moral judgements on why they exist and the moral implications of taking one position or another does not make people bad or good, or write or wrong. If someone buys the hypothetical $1 Fanzine DVD, their action of purchasing does not do damage to the IP owners, nor does it validate or justify the personal who manyfactured it. One person's crime of copyright breach cannot be passed down the chain to the buyers, whether they knew or not.

If that were the case, then we have a lot of working class AHs in the UK that bought the Sun and the News of the World knowing, encouraging and approving the invasion of privicy that so spectaculary came to be talked about. Every reader knew what their paper of choice was doing many years ago. They are all happy they continued to buy, all happy to support and encourage crime in the UK, and most of them really couldn't give a F, purely on account of, "Well, it wasn't me who did the deed, I was just a buyer." I see no difference in Mike buying a $1 DVD knowing in all likelihood that people's copyrights would have been breached for him to get his DVD, and all the billions of AHs around the world who buy News International products or watch their TV, knowingly supporting his companies' criminal activities.


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