Ian's Tortured Souls collection
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 13 of 17123 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14151617
Author

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6494
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:38 pm 
 

Mars wrote:That is a very big IF and a very difficult thing to hang on him.

Not really. If you go to someone and ask them for permission to republish a product they published in the past, and you ask them if they have the rights to grant that permission, and what terms they would apply to such permission, and for what fee/percentage; They either say, "Yes, and these are my terms and conditions." Or, "No, I cannot or will not give you permission." Its really that simple. In this case Basil said, "No", but not in so many words, and that is why there is no TS! Archive.

But, hypothetically speaking, if Basil had said, "Yes, I have the rights and I give you permission, and here are my terms and this is my price." I'd have costed the project, determined whether it was viable or not, and proceeded on that basis. I was, and still am, prepared to accept that when I speak with an author about their works (or in this case an author/publisher), I am prepared to accept their statements as truthful in regard to their rights to act and administer their own works, and those to whom they are the designated agent, for the given copyright term.

I don't see any conflict or moral dilema here at all.

Now, Basil he say 'no' and 25 years have elapsed, so his 'yes' would now only cover his own penned works and unattributed works which he originally published. So the whole thing is a little messier now, but at the time this project was conceived, it was a far simpler case.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2179
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:49 pm 
 

Mars wrote:could you clip out the part of the constitution that states you have the right to take and use someone else's work without compensation?


'Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution, known as the Copyright Clause, empowers the United States Congress:
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."'


The key phrase being "for limited Times," which originally was just a few years for an author's copyright.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6098
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 05, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:50 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:They either say, "Yes, and these are my terms and conditions." Or, "No, I cannot or will not give you permission." Its really that simple. In this case Basil said, "No", but not in so many words, and that is why there is no TS! Archive..


From your standpoint it is easy.  From Basil's it is not - I don't think he knows if he has the right to give permission for other people's work or not or to change the format etc.  He is someone who was (still is?) in the industry and throwing around copyright permission which is questionable is not something he is likely to do as easily as some here.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6494
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:00 pm 
 

Mars wrote:From your standpoint it is easy.  From Basil's it is not - I don't think he knows if he has the right to give permission for other people's work or not or to change the format etc.  He is someone who was (still is?) in the industry and throwing around copyright permission which is questionable is not something he is likely to do as easily as some here.

Which no doubt is why he refused to permit the project to go ahead. But of all the people I have been in contact with while trying to get something off the ground, he seems to know more than most where his rights lay (hense the unequivical, 'no, not ever' when it came to the CDM boxed sets). I trust he weighed up his rights and responsibilities and made the correct decision, and I'll respect that decision.

That said, if someone comes to me and says, "I've bought myself a copy of TS! 5, could I employ you as to produce a PDF backup copy for my own personal use, I'd have to see how that sits with UK Copyright Law, and that is something none of the author's or publishers have a right to stop. We are permitted to copy magazines and books for our own use, to play with and to protect out investments.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2179
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:01 pm 
 

Here's the ethical basis for limited IP rights:

   '"If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it."

   -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Isaac McPherson, Monticello, August 13, 1813'

Language is a virus. When you view another's work, it is absorbed by your mind & permanently becomes part of your imagination. When we were young, we played a game called D&D which subsequently became a part of us - absolute ownership would be tantamount to slavery. Hasbro does not own me.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6098
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 05, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:06 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote:'Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution, known as the Copyright Clause, empowers the United States Congress:
"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."'


The key phrase being "for limited Times," which originally was just a few years for an author's copyright.


Good to know there is nothing constitutionally wrong with "limited Times" being 1 year or 1000 years or 1,000,000 years.  Nice bit of keeping your options open.

For example, "useful Arts" does not refer to artistic endeavors, but rather to the work of artisans, people skilled in a manufacturing craft; "Science" is not limited to fields of modern scientific inquiry, but to all knowledge, including philosophy and literature.


The spirit of this sounds more as a means of making sure "progress" continues in various fields of study.  Not sure if this even applies to entertainment.  Is Mickey Mouse considered an "artistic endeavor" or a piece of "knowledge"?

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2179
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:10 pm 
 

Mars wrote:Is Mickey Mouse considered an "artistic endeavor" or a piece of "knowledge"?


The answer is on this thread:
viewtopic.php?p=189669

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6494
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:23 pm 
 

So, are you saying if someone discovered a cure for cancer, and they patented the process of creating the ensime or initiating the molecular bond, they should then be permitted to have the rights and limit the use and distribution of all cancer care for all time?

In your untopia, presumably all football viewing rights, and all rights to play and/or discuss the game would be owned by one corporation. All motor vehicles and all means of transport throughout the world would be owned by another. All food stuffs and the rights to grow those foods would be controlled and bought from a single individual family, and everyone on earth would owe their entire lives to a few corporations controlling all owned IP.

Wasn't slavery abolished in the US?
Isn't this the US taking steps back towards legalising slavery again?
I bet Martin Luther King didn't think America would begin dismantling his life's work so quickly.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6098
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 05, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:44 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:So, are you saying if someone discovered a cure for cancer, and they patented the process of creating the ensime or initiating the molecular bond, they should then be permitted to have the rights and limit the use and distribution of all cancer care for all time?


No that is a useful piece of information and is covered under Patent Law not copyright law.

 WWW  


Collector

Posts: 2
Joined: Dec 20, 2011
Last Visit: Dec 20, 2011

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:49 pm 
 

Errr, slow down a bit here boys :)

Nobody's said that this project or something very much like it won't go ahead - well not me anyway - it's just that I've been out of the loop a long time and apart from some initial discussions with Ian (that ended in a lost contact only just re-established) had no real idea of what and when was even being discussed. As soon as I can grab some time I'll talk through some possible ways forward with Ian and we'll see what can be done.

I can't possibly even read, let alone reply to, all of the individual points, questions and bullshit that has been raised on this. Can I just say that all of the authors of the TS! articles/scenarios/solos etc. are known to me personally in the event of permissions being required - there's only one written contribution that I think might pose a problem with tracing author. The CDM series is not currently under discussion (athough Allen and Judith are both also aware that the idea has been discussed).

Be patient guys, I have to feed my kids, teach my dance lessons, spend time with my partner before I shuffle off to oblivion.... Making vasts piles of cash is hardly my highest priority or TS! would never have been published in the way that we chose to do it. Isn't it enough to know that we're still alive??? :)

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6098
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Nov 05, 2021
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 pm 
 

Basil Barrett wrote:Be patient guys, I have to feed my kids, teach my dance lessons, spend time with my partner before I shuffle off to oblivion.... Making vasts piles of cash is hardly my highest priority or TS! would never have been published in the way that we chose to do it. Isn't it enough to know that we're still alive??? :)


I'm happy to know you are alive and wish you could make piles of cash with TS!  

all of the authors of the TS! articles/scenarios/solos etc. are known to me personally in the event of permissions being required - there's only one written contribution that I think might pose a problem with tracing author.


That leaves me hopeful something can be done right.  If you need some help tracking someone down let me know and I can see if I can help.

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3496
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:13 pm 
 

Well, I for one hope the project reaches fruition and I would pay for an electronic archive, whether downloadable or on a cd/DVD. If CDMA can be added to it, then woo-hoo! :)

Ian, I have a full set of TS! as per your earlier post, would you make me an electronic copy for my personal back-up? ;)


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2737
Joined: May 31, 2007
Last Visit: Mar 22, 2021

Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:17 pm 
 

Having the full set in print form, I don't really need them in electronic form, other than maybe printing out some of the pull-out things time to time... but if the CDM stuff can be added, it would be more considered, as I do not yet have them in real paper.

Not sure how that could be done, as I'd imagine GW has their mitts in the pie.


Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7969
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Dec 01, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:26 am 
 

Mars wrote:
One simple question.  If Ian released this project today, would you buy it?


Since Ian has already stated numerous times he wouldn't publish this unless all the particulars were taken care of, that's an absurd question meant only to "catch" me in some sort of compromising position.  I'll reply to any serious inquiries and I'm not shy (as you have already seen) about stating my opinion, but let's go easy on the "what ifs".  

And to head off your next questions, if every single fanzine for RPGs ever published were available tomorrow on a disc for $1 one day only, yes I would buy one. :roll:

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7969
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Dec 01, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:56 am 
 

Mars wrote:

Who says every fan, or Joe Blow on the street that wants to pump out merchandise has the "best interest" at heart?  You are not going to get a consensus on who has the "best interest" so who should decide what happens?

Obviously, according to you, the answer would be "the richest guy with the most expensive lawyers, fuck the fans who have been buying the stuff for decades."

         
        
Mars wrote:
and lower the time period to which it gets released if you are not "active" (in using the copyright character).


Again thanks for supporting my point.  These characters were not being actively used and would have fallen into the public domain earlier under what I proposed.  This is very different from a company that is actively using the character.


Except your point is a meaningless utopian fantasy.  The law already had a chance to do that, and they didn't, ON PURPOSE. They don't CARE if the property is being used, developed, or sold. All they care about is extending the copyright another few generations to benefit megabucks corps like Disney, Conde Nast, and others.

You see, under your philosophy, if Disney wanted to but out movies with Mickey screwing Goofy and Minnie Mouse, it would ok because they paid for the right to do so, regardless of those generations of fans and kids who love the characters.  So your objection isn't on any moral or ethical grounds but purely one of "pay to play".  Once again, for many years it was assumed that a creator's heirs could make themselves filthy rich in the lifetime +70 years that existed, why did we suddenly think "yeh, an extra 25 years is a much better deal"...it wasn't because of a sudden feeling of outrage that a creator's great-great grandchildren were being cut out of the picture, I assure you.
         
         
BadMike wrote:
I think the best thing would be if you didn't purchase any product that Ian puts out.

Thanks for your concern for my well being but unfortunately, I'm hoping to get some other projects underway with Ian.


And I double talk? That's actually pretty funny.

Glad my $400+ of support could help you guys out in the con's infancy. Now that its up and going I guess its easy to be kicked aside.  No worries, I probably can't afford the inflation on NTRPG merchandise this year ($10 first year, $20 second year, $30 this year?)


Knowing how you now stand on this issue I just can't see you blindly purchasing our material anymore...I mean, do you REALLY know we got all the permissions necessary to publish Tim Kask's stuff?  Did we really ever speak to Peter Kerestan?  Maybe Steve Winter doesn't know we stuck his 2010 adventures up for sale. Trusting us at this point would seem to be a really risky endeavor. Everything we've published so far has completely sold out anyway so it's not like we have a lack of people interested in the product. I'd much rather have supporters than speculators buying our stuff, keep your money.

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7969
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Dec 01, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:04 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
In your untopia, presumably all football viewing rights, and all rights to play and/or discuss the game would be owned by one corporation.



That's actually an interesting example Ian. In the US, the rights to all NFL football games are owned by ONE entity that paid for the rights many, many years ago for an extended length of time (100 years or something like that?). And you know what? THEY SUCK DICK.  They will NOT, even after decades of pleading from fans, release individual games for sale, nor will they ok any sorts of broadcasts of any sort of past recordings of games for any reasons (even non-profit). So, that means if I would love to have a copy of the first Cowboy game I saw in person (in 1970 vs the Cardinals at the Cotton Bowl), or the first Thanksgiving day Cowboy game I saw in person in 1977, I am absolutely shit out of luck as is every single other NFL fan of any team that would love to have copies for personal viewing pleasure. They have just decided that for maximum profit they will keep the games under wraps forever, only broadcasting them in truncated form on the NFL network (not ordinary games, though, mind you, but only games of importance like playoff games, so any regular season games Imight want to see I never will be able to...).  It's all perfectly legal of course but is the ultimate slap in the face to fans and an example of what happens when one owner/corporation dictates policy forever without any input from fans.

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
http://www.ntrpgcon.com

 WWW  

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 315
Joined: Jan 09, 2008
Last Visit: Jul 04, 2020

Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:31 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The whole problem in the UK is that publishers refuse to publish in a user friendly manner. They don't get that they have to sell the buyer what he wants to buy, at the correct price and at a suitable quality in order to be successfull. For too long companies (particularly in the UK) have been publishing low quality sh!t written by unimaginative cannon fodder, and editted and typeset by some of the most illiterate and poorly educated publishing staff they can find.


What utter rubbish. So if somone publishes a game you like but you consider too expensive then its OK to rip it off?

Many UK rpg publishers provide a free pdf with a purchased hardcopy, if you buy at a convention or from their website.

You only contacted Basil because *I* got his email address for you. You claimed to have been looking for it for 2 years - finding it took me less than 2 weeks. Where did you look for it Ian, in your back garden? Under the table? I bet you were really disappointed when I sent it to you.

Cheers,
KAL


.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6494
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Dec 04, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:14 am 
 

Versimilitude wrote:What utter rubbish. So if somone publishes a game you like but you consider too expensive then its OK to rip it off?

I don't think I said that, and I don't think many people here believe I have ever supported or encouraged the ripping off of Publishers or their authors. You don't seem to have read the thread. We have pretty clear copyright laws in this country, and they set out what you can and cannot do, and what you should do in most circumstances. We also have libraries full of case history demonstrating the manner in which the law is applied, how the law is interpretted, and what the consequences are if you breach copyright. I think I made it clear from the beginning that I had begun a process and was following the law in the UK, and some three years on, I continue to follow that law, I have sought to clarify various points with people as I see them (e.g. the lapse of Beast Entz copyright and the reverting ow IP ownership to known authers, etc). This process goes on, and I'm sure anyone involved with a project that is very much in Basil's hands will continue to follow UK law as they understand it. I had thought that was very clear, but you seem to have interpretted things differently.
Versimilitude wrote:Many UK rpg publishers provide a free pdf with a purchased hardcopy, if you buy at a convention or from their website.

That's as maybe, but you were bemoaning UK RPG Publishers finding it hard to make money, and I was point out that the UK RPG industry fell appart when they started publishing sh!t no-one on the whole wanted to buy. It's a billion dollar industry. The majority of that money gravitates towards large corporations, but the talented authors and the intelligent in the industry make a good living at it. There are plenty of really talented publishers putting out well designed products combining the best in art and layout, cartography and authorship. The UK RPG industry finds it so hard because the companies involved either have no talent, no perception of what their prospective customer wants, or cannot figure out how to make something cheap enough that everyone will buy into it. Now, the excuse will be different, in different measures for each publisher, but burrying their heads in the sand and saying, "We produce the best quality products at a good price and no-one is buying because the economy is bad." is quite simpy bullshit. What will their excuses be when the recession is over and they're still peddling the same badly written, badly presented, crap. Or worse, the same well written, overpriced product that the newbies won't jump on on account of cost, and they hike the prices because costs have risen and they figure we can all afford it on account of the recession being over?

A case in point - Catalyst tried to relaunch Battletech. They have a solid game mechanic and an established player base across America and Germany, but the game is dead in the UK. So what do they do? The release a boxed set so expensive people cannot buy into the game, and a series of addon maps for gameplay so expensive people won't buy them. Now that is damn good marketting. They paid product developement and marketing people to do this for them and no-one ever asked anyone if the product would sell to the kids. And yet, they had the very product that would have had kids right across Britain starting to pick up and play Battletech, in thier hands, developed and ready to print, that they could have had on shelves for under a fiver in games stores right around the world.

But hey, it's the recession and the UK games industry is finding it hard to make money right now. That'll be why. Kids just don't want to be spending their money on games these days. Maybe old guys like me are better customers? Maybe that's where the future of RPG gaming in the UK is? Maybe Games Workshop don't have a clue and their success is just a figment of their imagination. Or maybe, just maybe, UK company's product development and marketing people haven't got a fucking clue how to do their jobs. Most publishers in the UK don't seem to give a F about their products anyways, let alone their customers.
Versimilitude wrote:You only contacted Basil because *I* got his email address for you. You claimed to have been looking for it for 2 years - finding it took me less than 2 weeks. Where did you look for it Ian, in your back garden? Under the table? I bet you were really disappointed when I sent it to you.

Not at all. I don't recall exactly who gave me the e-mail address (I had thought it may have been Malc), but I'll take your word for it. I made more progress, and found out more about the background of the campaign setting and the little discussed TS fanzines of '78 than I would have ever found recorded online. I have no animosity towards Basil and no desire to 'rip him off' either. I am glad he is interested in progressing a project and if I can be part of that, so much the better. If not, hey ho. I'll buy a copy and this thread has served to show him how much passion people have for Tortured Souls! As to the extent of my search for the authors, and where and who I contacted, the list includes a number of printing companies, one or two major RPG Publishers, a couple of authors and artists, a goodly spread of parish councils, the ususl 192 online search and public records databases, and many hundreds of unanswered e-mails to folks. And I was not the only one looking for the authers, nor was my search confined to just Basil. The fact that Basil was the one IP owner to have been found does not negate any of the work I did in looking for the others either, as they all have a claim on the IP. I stall have no leads in finding Simon Forrest (other than Basil eluding to the fact that he may have contact with him he could revive). But as I have already said in this thread, the timing has elapsed and the project is now Basil's to progress as he sees fit. I couldn't give a damn about what money it'll make, and that money belongs with the writer, the artist and the publisher regardless. I'd just like to see a PDF Archive of a professional quality on my shelf and be happy I'd pushed the discussion along.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 13 of 17123 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14151617