Ian's Tortured Souls collection
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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:50 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Is that what this is about?  Jesus Christ, I'll mail you a copy of Ghost Tower if you'll shut the fuck up.  Wouldn't want your collection to have any holes in it.  Sorry you lost out on the posters.


No that was just a bad jab and was uncalled for - I apologize.  I have 3 copies of Ghost Tower that I don't know what to do with already - you already sent me a couple without my asking.  I didn't bid on the posters, I have a couple already and they really aren't my thing anyway.

What I don't like and don't really understand is that you, of all people, who makes a living by selling legal product and organizes a con (i.e. obviously has some man love for the hobby) can so easily ignore copyright and support PDF piracy.  I know where Ian is coming from - he has been upfront about PDFing material since the day he arrived at the Acaeum.

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Post Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:57 pm 
 

Dude,

I have been trying to stay out of this fray.  But, these guys are not making money because of TSR.  They helped build TSR.  You can't separate the chicken and the egg so easily.  Or, in this case, the yolk and the albumen.

Further, your math is odd.  Even IF they sell twice as much and for twice the price, you didn't discount the amount they would have sold if some portion of the difference should be attributed to their involvement in TSR.  Did you discount for wholesale sales?  And, don't forget marketing/selling costs, loss and printing errors that are not actually the printers fault and force expensive extra blues, or reprints.  

Also, their work is generally high quality and it is not uncommon for former TSR employees to do BETTER work post TSR.  discount that as you will.

Finally, $100,000 ????  Are you kidding!  These are professionals with skills, publication credits and public persona's that represent work.  If they only "earned" $100,000 from RPG related work, post TSR.... they should have gone to work at Wal Mart instead.  

Apparently, it pays better to flip burgers, or place yellow smileys than to create works beloved by thousands.

What the heck do you begrudge them?

/rant off.

pps.  someone give this guy a poster so he will shut up, if that is what it is about.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:01 am 
 

As for the copyright issues.  I don't always like what I read on this forum either.  However, when I don't have standing in the matter and in an area of law that evolves so quickly that experts struggle to keep up with precedent (and aware that in some countries (and Louisiana, lol) precedent is often irrelevant...   I try to stay out of the way of the arguments.

You aren't going to change the course of the project.  If you don't agree with it, ignore it.  This isn't a Sandusky matter, it should be a gentleman's disagreement.

On the other hand, if you have standing, have fun, but please handle it privately.  This finger pointing, name calling rant has gotten tiresome.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:06 am 
 

PDF Pirate King wrote:
Start totalling it all up.  As a quick estimate, lets say that the reputation/recognition of the author's/artist's work has allowed them to double their sales or charge twice as much as someone without that background (in many cases probably both).

If you want to use Rob Kuntz as a benchmark we can do that

Pied Piper Press:
$8970 CAS1 $14.95 * 600 copies? (2 prints)
$9570 CAS2 $15.95 * 600 copies? (2 prints)
$8550 RJK-1 Collector $150 * 57 copies
$10000 RJK-1 standard $20 * 500 copies
$3000 Living Room $10 * 300 copies (can't remember original price)
$4990 ERK-1 (collector) $24.95 * 200 copies
$4990 ERK-1 (standard) $24.95 * 200 copies?
$3585 Stalk (collector) $11.95 * 300 copies
$3585 Stalk (standard) $11.95 * 300 copies?
$3285 D&A (collector) $10.95 * 300 copies
$3285 D&D (standard) $10.95 * 300 copies?
Dungeon Sets #1 & #2
Black Festival
---------------
$63810 - printing costs

$33000 from Ebay auctions through Collector's Trove
+ Maze of Zayene (original and D20 versions), Troll Lord Games modules, etc
+ donations to PPP, sales of author copies and original notes, etc

I think it is safe to say that Rob Kuntz has made $100,000 from his TSR/RPG reputation.

Now, how about all the other former TSR employees?  How many pieces of art do you think Elmore has sold?  How many are even directly related to TSR product such as the Dragonlance prints?  How about Wolfgang Baur, Monte Cook, etc?  How much is the markup on all the Gygax auctions being sold because they belonged to Gary?

I think millions is an accurate.


I can tell you from personal knowledge Rob made nowhere near that much on the PPP stuff.  Many of those items were sold to Dragonstrove or others for below cost because Rob needed the cash. Even if those figures are correct, $100,000 is far from "millions", and it was spread out over a career.  I'm not going into detail because Rob is a friend but trust me those figures aren't reality.  This is a stupid tangent anyway and has nothing to do with the crux of the reprinting argument.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:33 am 
 

PDF Pirate King wrote:
No that was just a bad jab and was uncalled for - I apologize.  I have 3 copies of Ghost Tower that I don't know what to do with already - you already sent me a couple without my asking.  I didn't bid on the posters, I have a couple already and they really aren't my thing anyway.

What I don't like and don't really understand is that you, of all people, who makes a living by selling legal product and organizes a con (i.e. obviously has some man love for the hobby) can so easily ignore copyright and support PDF piracy.  I know where Ian is coming from - he has been upfront about PDFing material since the day he arrived at the Acaeum.


When you rush in with hyperbole and overblown arguments you do yourself a disservice.  I am for full due diligence when it comes to reprinting material.  However, I also realize the fact that certain publications will fall out of knowledge and use if not preserved, and part of being a collector is not just hoarding items but making them available for future gamers and gaming historians. Seriously I feel to do otherwise is to disrespect our hobby.  If I had the time or means I'd probably go ahead and make pdfs of my entire collection of long OOP material and freely distribute them to anyone who showed interest....I feel that strongly about the issue, and as strongly that such copies will cost no one any lost revenue. Obviously I would never do so for any material still in print or owned by the original copyright holders.

First and foremost when Doug and I thought up NTRPG con we decided that we would reward gamers attending and supporting the con by giving them something that your average gamer can not afford.  We were lucky to fall into the rights to the Wee Warriors material (thanks to Pete Kerestan).   But we also have looked out there for further hard to find materials for reprinting at future cons, fully giving rights holders their due or payment for the material when we can.  The Ghost Tower was a mistake based on information we had at the time and I still believe ethically and legally we did nothing wrong; we were never served with any cease and desist and when we talked to a WOTC rep we voluntarily stopped even though if we had a bank vault full of money we could have won a case, I believe, but it was never about that. We are going to further search for hard to find material to reprint at future cons and I make no apologies for doing so....if we feel we have what we consider permission from the rights holder we will go ahead and print.  Anyone having a problem with that is free to not purchase the material.

Laws are decided by those that have money, and I believe sometimes people have a moral and ethical right to oppose those laws when they are unfair or blatantly serve the purposes of the uber-wealthy (the old "I'm starving can I steal food?" dilemma).  So you can think what you want of me, but if I was, say, 95% sure I had the complete rights to reprinting Minotaur's Lair I would go ahead and do so, as I care more about the material being out there than I do the extremely tiny chance someone will protest (and if they did, I would immediately cease publication).  In Ian's case, I have been following his journey over the years and I really believe he has done the BEST he can to cover all his bases, and the value of such a production is far greater to the hobby itself outweighing any outrage one person who sent in a monster description 30 years ago may feel.   You can think what you want of me based on that, but I have no problems with it myself.  

I don't agree with Ian on a lot of things but in his effort to get this material out there for general consumption I am behind him 100% and will support these endeavors for the good of the hobby now and in the future. If Ian puts out a product that doesn't pass legal muster it will get hammered, so what's the fuss? I always find it odd that the people who should be genuinely upset by so-called pirate pdfs are never the ones commenting on these forums.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:39 am 
 

One more thing to add is that you can line 100 copyright lawyers up and you will get 100 different answers on what constitutes reprintable material and due diligence, etc.  I got online in 1992 and these arguments were tiresome then and have only gotten more tiresome the last two decades.  What I have taken from it is that every forum in the universe has two guys with diametrically opposed viewpoints and opinions on almost anything, and in general both think they are right.  I've heard every argument, ten times, on both sides of any sort of copyright argument and come to the conclusion that  no one, not even a lawyer, knows what the hell they are talking about as law changes so quickly and is dependent on so many things it's madness. I hate to say it I agree with Pip, there doesn't seem to be anything constructive going on here. Let Ian continue his project and if he publishes it and no one says anything, that's fine by me. If someone raises holy hell, then we have our answer. One way or another it'll either get done or not whether or not we are bitching about it either way.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:49 am 
 

This is where a lot of it stems from:

BadMike wrote:Point out how much Jim Ward, Frank Mentzer, Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, Erol Otus, Jeff Dee or really any other ex-TSR employee from the beginning of the company is making off their work (which has made millions for later owners of the company, WOTC and Hasbro) and I'll promise I'll get angry the next time someone makes a photocopy of a copy of a 1E module for home use.   If the work is not in print and the original creator is not seeing a dime from any re-publication that may not happen, I'm not too upset.


With the previous statements, the opinion expressed here indicates that it is (morally) okay to breach copyright if it doesn't effect the little guy; i.e. breaching copyright on TSR stuff is okay because the company has made millions off the products.  Any new reprints would only benefit the large company and not the original author so no big deal.

I'm just pointing out that all of these former employees were paid for their work, developed their skills while working for the company, had access to the other masters in their fields, etc.  Also, they gained opportunities for make more money after leaving TSR because of their relationship to TSR and the products they created for TSR.  So while, TSR is "making millions" off of their products and they aren't seeing a penny of it, these authors/artist (combined) have also "made millions" in comparison other authors/artists who are just as talented (or could have been) that didn't work for TSR.

Pipswich wrote:Even IF they sell twice as much and for twice the price, you didn't discount the amount they would have sold if some portion of the difference should be attributed to their involvement in TSR.  Did you discount for wholesale sales?  And, don't forget marketing/selling costs, loss and printing errors that are not actually the printers fault and force expensive extra blues, or reprints.


I am just doing rough numbers but I can address a number of these things in the PPP case.  Most of PPP stuff was sold in direct sales - money paid direct to PPP so wholesale sales would be small in comparison - NK took over for the sale of the products I don't list info for.  Marketing of PPP? A couple hundred bucks at most - some basic website stuff and that seems to be it.  Not sure about printing costs and this is listed.

As to how much of this stuff would sell if it wasn't from "Rob Kuntz" of D&D/TSR fame?  Very Little.  He had problems with many other industry people (Necromacer Games, TLG, etc), products arrive smokey, shipping is delayed month after month after month, special editions are not terribly special (i.e. $150 Bottle City gets you some extra sheets and a 1 piece map instead of 2 pieces).  If this was anyone else, the company would have folded after producing 1 item.

How much would those handwritten sheets of paper that sold for thousands on Ebay sell for if it was just someone's unknown homebrew?  How much would Robilar character sheet reproductions (not the original) sell for if it wasn't from this author?  Basically nothing - no value other than that of what the author's reputation gave to them.

Finally, $100,000 ????  Are you kidding!  These are professionals with skills, publication credits and public persona's that represent work.  If they only "earned" $100,000 from RPG related work, post TSR.... they should have gone to work at Wal Mart instead.  


Its a starting point, but I don't think most people in the RPG industry use RPG income as their primary source - they have other jobs and do RPG stuff on the side.

What the heck do you begrudge them?


I absolutely don't begrudge them - this is not the discussion.  The discussion is the other side of the coin.  I also don't begrudge the company that is making money off the work they were paid to do.  I am pointing out that while the company is making money from their work, the individuals have also benefited from working at the company even after they left.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:31 am 
 

Badmike wrote:The Ghost Tower was a mistake based on information we had at the time and I still believe ethically and legally we did nothing wrong; we were never served with any cease and desist and when we talked to a WOTC rep we voluntarily stopped even though if we had a bank vault full of money we could have won a case, I believe, but it was never about that.

OK, I'll bite. What on earth made you both think - still think - that you were in the clear there: simply that it's no longer "in print", or what?

Badmike wrote:Laws are decided by those that have money, and I believe sometimes people have a moral and ethical right to oppose those laws when they are unfair or blatantly serve the purposes of the uber-wealthy (the old "I'm starving can I steal food?" dilemma).

Sure....

So someone who's feeling relatively impoverished "craves" Beasts, Men & Gods or Tabletop Warriors' Fantasy Adventures but believes it's unfair that anyone flogging such old works should be asking more than a buck or two each nowadays, therefore they "demand" that .pdfs should be made available free-of-charge (additionally claiming that they're actually saving them from being "lost to the community as a whole" in the process, perhaps...).

Where do you draw the line with your "ethics" that there's a perceived right to reprint works that you personally contributed nothing to, since that's hardly in the same category of "need" as ensuring that someone doesn't expire from lack of food.

Badmike wrote:In Ian's case, I have been following his journey over the years and I really believe he has done the BEST he can to cover all his bases...

Ian's doing a better job than most, that's for sure; and we have discussed various ins-and-outs of (c) legislation earlier on this thread and elsewhere.
Finding the original contract terms that went along with publication by any third party is, unfortunately, usually a lot more difficult for companies smaller than TSR; if indeed anything was ever written down in many cases.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:09 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I hate to say it I agree with Pip, there doesn't seem to be anything constructive going on here. Let Ian continue his project and if he publishes it and no one says anything, that's fine by me. If someone raises holy hell, then we have our answer. One way or another it'll either get done or not whether or not we are bitching about it either way.


I think you know that I don't want to see this stuff disappear forever either but I also don't think breaching copyright is the way to preserve it.  By not saying anything, you are encouraging Ian to go ahead and you know it wouldn't stop with TS!  Some see this as a problem, others don't.

Badmike wrote:the old "I'm starving can I steal food?"


This call also be stated: "I'm rich and want to stay rich, can I steal food?".

Badmike wrote:if I was, say, 95% sure I had the complete rights to reprinting Minotaur's Lair I would go ahead and do so, as I care more about the material being out there than I do the extremely tiny chance someone will protest (and if they did, I would immediately cease publication).


This is also where I start to wonder.  Risk/Reward.  There are probably a dozen copies of this out there in collector hands and maybe 25 people have ever posed an interest in bidding/obtaining a copy.  Why would you try to bring it into the mainstream?  This is however, more the type of item that I would encourage someone to go after - get the okay from the author/artist (often same person) and start printing.  I'm pretty sure I talked to this guy and they weren't interested in it.  Magazines are a whole other issue.

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:31 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
The Ghost Tower was a mistake based on information we had at the time and I still believe ethically and legally we did nothing wrong; we were never served with any cease and desist and when we talked to a WOTC rep we voluntarily stopped even though if we had a bank vault full of money we could have won a case, I believe, but it was never about that.

OK, I'll bite. What on earth made you both think - still think - that you were in the clear there: simply that it's no longer "in print", or what?


What we did or didn't think, knew or didn't know, were told or weren't told, is something I'd never share with you anyway. We were in contact with WOTC the entire time, though. Bite away.

        
Badmike wrote:
Laws are decided by those that have money, and I believe sometimes people have a moral and ethical right to oppose those laws when they are unfair or blatantly serve the purposes of the uber-wealthy (the old "I'm starving can I steal food?" dilemma).

Sure....

So someone who's feeling relatively impoverished "craves" Beasts, Men & Gods or Tabletop Warriors' Fantasy Adventures but believes it's unfair that anyone flogging such old works should be asking more than a buck or two each nowadays, therefore they "demand" that .pdfs should be made available free-of-charge (additionally claiming that they're actually saving them from being "lost to the community as a whole" in the process, perhaps...).

Where do you draw the line with your "ethics" that there's a perceived right to reprint works that you personally contributed nothing to, since that's hardly in the same category of "need" as ensuring that someone doesn't expire from lack of food.


Once again, a specious argument.  Obviously any jackass would know I wasn't literally comparing food to D&D modules unless they were intent on a purely theoretical hyperbole filled bullshit argument.  It hurts to even form the arguments to make them understandable to cretins so I'm not even going to respond, except to say if a free pdf popped up of Tabletop Warriors (of which I have a stake in) I couldn't care less. As for where I "draw the line", that's for me to decide and I could personally give a shit what you think about it.  Seriously, I can't even measure how little your opinion matters to me.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:55 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
I hate to say it I agree with Pip, there doesn't seem to be anything constructive going on here. Let Ian continue his project and if he publishes it and no one says anything, that's fine by me. If someone raises holy hell, then we have our answer. One way or another it'll either get done or not whether or not we are bitching about it either way.


I think you know that I don't want to see this stuff disappear forever either but I also don't think breaching copyright is the way to preserve it.  By not saying anything, you are encouraging Ian to go ahead and you know it wouldn't stop with TS!  Some see this as a problem, others don't.


My point is that I don't think Ian is breaching copyright at this point. You obviously do.  I think Ian has made a decent case and I'd be interested in seeing where it went. You continue to throw up roadblocks based on your understanding of the law, which may or may not be correct.  I'm just saying let's see what happens and go from there based on reality, not what either of us thinks might or might not happen.

         
Badmike wrote:
the old "I'm starving can I steal food?"


This call also be stated: "I'm rich and want to stay rich, can I steal food?".


Let me restate the argument since everyone seems to be hung up on food. Do you personally think it's ok that Disney can continue to change copyright laws to benefit them because they have a shit-ton of money and an army of lawyers? Should they be able to keep their creations, in defiance of any past laws or rulings, solely because of the fact they can change the law to protect themselves and not on any other merit?  If you are ok with that, fine. I just don't happen to believe in law by fat wallet.

         
Badmike wrote:
if I was, say, 95% sure I had the complete rights to reprinting Minotaur's Lair I would go ahead and do so, as I care more about the material being out there than I do the extremely tiny chance someone will protest (and if they did, I would immediately cease publication).


This is also where I start to wonder.  Risk/Reward.  There are probably a dozen copies of this out there in collector hands and maybe 25 people have ever posed an interest in bidding/obtaining a copy.  Why would you try to bring it into the mainstream?  This is however, more the type of item that I would encourage someone to go after - get the okay from the author/artist (often same person) and start printing.  I'm pretty sure I talked to this guy and they weren't interested in it.  Magazines are a whole other issue.


In most cases the risk is negligible, while the reward is great in terms of people getting their hands on something they would never have a chance to get normally.  Is perhaps the fact only 25 people have posed an interest in buying a copy of Minotaur's Lair the fact of it's high price and limited availability?  Do you think I could sell, say, 100 copies of this if I got the rights to do so at $20 a pop?  I'm betting I could.  Some of the items Doug and I are looking at getting the rights to reprint could be said to have very limited interest; we are betting that with a wider distribution aimed at NTRPG con goers (who are a very select level of convention attendees, being mostly collectors or old school aficionados) they would sell enough to pay for themselves and bring the works to a wider audience of collectors that cannot find or afford the originals.

If Doug or I was worried about maximum profit we would still be pumping out digest versions of POTVQ at $20 a pop and probably selling half a dozen a month to this day.  The aim has always been to get these items out to the collector that cannot afford the originals, at an affordable price, while making NTRPG con a place that collectors want to attend so they won't miss out on various con goodies available nowhere else.  

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:10 am 
 

         
BadMike wrote:
Point out how much Jim Ward, Frank Mentzer, Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, Erol Otus, Jeff Dee or really any other ex-TSR employee from the beginning of the company is making off their work (which has made millions for later owners of the company, WOTC and Hasbro) and I'll promise I'll get angry the next time someone makes a photocopy of a copy of a 1E module for home use.   If the work is not in print and the original creator is not seeing a dime from any re-publication that may not happen, I'm not too upset.


With the previous statements, the opinion expressed here indicates that it is (morally) okay to breach copyright if it doesn't effect the little guy; i.e. breaching copyright on TSR stuff is okay because the company has made millions off the products.  Any new reprints would only benefit the large company and not the original author so no big deal.

I'm just pointing out that all of these former employees were paid for their work, developed their skills while working for the company, had access to the other masters in their fields, etc.  Also, they gained opportunities for make more money after leaving TSR because of their relationship to TSR and the products they created for TSR.  So while, TSR is "making millions" off of their products and they aren't seeing a penny of it, these authors/artist (combined) have also "made millions" in comparison other authors/artists who are just as talented (or could have been) that didn't work for TSR.


Just so we are clear, I find myself hard to work up any moral outrage if someone photocopies T1 Village of Hommlet and gives it to a friend, or downloads a pdf of same off a bit torrent and runs it for his group. If this makes me evil, so be it.  I also once noticed that a large "evil" banking giant gave me an extra $20 back in a cash machine many years ago and I kept the extra sawbuck without telling them.  I still feel zero guilt for this also. I realize I am ethically a monster for this but willing to take the heat.  So, yeh, frankly I couldn't give a damn what Hasborg thinks about anything, unless they are willing to start paying Frank, Rob, Tim, Jim, et al royalties off the creations that are now helping them reap millions.

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:24 am 
 

Badmike wrote:What we did or didn't think, knew or didn't know, were told or weren't told, is something I'd never share with you anyway. We were in contact with WOTC the entire time, though. Bite away.

Quoting Brian from earlier in this thread "Lack of them saying "no" is not "permission"".

Your use of "in contact with" is misleading, Mike, since that may be read as implying two-way discussions that never existed. Doug at least was honest enough to share the backstory even if he previously disagreed with you regarding the legality of making copies. Which was why I was inquiring as to why you're now apparently stating that you "both think - still think - that you were in the clear there".

I was given an email address and I sent an email basically explaining about our small old school Con and the fact I'd like to reprint in Digest format an exact copy of collectors edition of a tournament module produced by TSR for a GenCon in the 70's and that I'd like to sell these 100 copies to help support the Con.

I sent this email more than once, never got a response.

I went a head and decided I would print the module anyway, and I would give them away at the Con as Research Replicas. Since a large portion of our attendees are collectors and a large portion can also not afford an original copy of the 70's collectors edition of the tournament module. I only gave these copies away to people that made a donation to the Con. I destroyed the last 15 that were left over.

Does that mean it was "okay", no... does that mean I might get in trouble, yes... I don't think anything I did will cause any revenue loss to WotC, but does that make it "okay", no...

I printed them hoping I would get a response, but never did.

Personally I think WotC wouldn't care, base on what they were being printed and used for, but if they told me it was okay, they would open a can of worms and who know what might happen... so I think they just decided to ignore it.

I received an answer from TSR the next day when asking the same sorts of questions... Depends on who you ask, I guess?

Badmike wrote:Once again, a specious argument.  Obviously any jackass would know I wasn't literally comparing food to D&D modules unless they were intent on a purely theoretical hyperbole filled bullshit argument.  It hurts to even form the arguments to make them understandable to cretins so I'm not even going to respond, except to say if a free pdf popped up of Tabletop Warriors (of which I have a stake in) I couldn't care less. As for where I "draw the line", that's for me to decide and I could personally give a shit what you think about it.  Seriously, I can't even measure how little your opinion matters to me.

Why make a "purely theoretical hyperbole filled bullshit" comparison in the first place, then?

Seriously, I was under the impression that we were discussing matters in a mature, constructive manner, but thank you for the correction.

Badmike wrote:The aim has always been to get these items out to the collector that cannot afford the originals, at an affordable price, while making NTRPG con a place that collectors want to attend so they won't miss out on various con goodies available nowhere else.

It's a marketing ploy for the con, nothing more; not that that's a "bad thing" in its own right. The aim may originally have been "to get these items out to the collector that cannot afford the originals", but such good intentions went right out of the window last time.

Anyhow; OT, and back over to Ian's thread... :)


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  

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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:36 am 
 

Badmike wrote:So, yeh, frankly I couldn't give a damn what Hasborg thinks about anything, unless they are willing to start paying Frank, Rob, Tim, Jim, et al royalties off the creations that are now helping them reap millions.

If "Frank, Rob, Tim, Jim, et al." wish to feel bitter and use that as justification, that's entirely their own, personal business.

I don't recall Ted Nelson or Douglas Engelbart saying they don't give a damn about rapacious big business companies/individuals in IT and demanding their share of the $$ pie to keep quiet. All the more credit to them for that.


"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:40 am 
 

Just a little thought of my own, but I was very happy to buy a PDF of PotV from the NTRPG via Doug on his site.

Whether it was legal or not, I don't see that as bad, because it's not something I would sell on as an original and it allowed me to own something I never would otherwise. Maybe I misunderstand it, but I see items like that as ok, because no-ones making a profit, no-one loses out becausethe original authors have already made their money and it's not a new product inthe same way as music or video game piracy. I don't see that even the original copies lose value against a PDF either.

It's just my view and basic understanding of these PDFs


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:54 am 
 

ashmire13 wrote:Just a little thought of my own, but I was very happy to buy a PDF of PotV from the NTRPG via Doug on his site.

Whether it was legal or not...

Reprinted with permission in dead tree format for the con; presumably was OK'd with the .pdf thereafter. A different matter entirely and good work for that. :)

ashmire13 wrote:Maybe I misunderstand it, but I see items like that as ok, because no-ones making a profit, no-one loses out becausethe original authors have already made their money and it's not a new product inthe same way as music or video game piracy.

The (c) owners still have a legal right to act in whatever manner they wish; whether they might wish to re-release said item for $100 on a given anniversary of first publication, bring it back into print in cheap POD or .pdf format, or generously donate the work free of charge to the community at large. That is entirely their business.
Encouraging low-cost reprinting/.pdfs or donating is a "good thing" for the community at large, of course, although many (most?) people might prefer to pick up a free .pdf on the sly without having the hassle of researching, discussing such matters at length and being prepared to take "no" for an answer.


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:43 am 
 

Hmm, good point re: free/sly copies. Tbh, as I stated earlier in the thread, I'd love a set of TS!, CDM etc in PDF form. I have the TS! In full paper so it'd be nice to keep PDFs for back up. I'll not sell my TS! Either as I doubt I'd get a full set ever again anyway. Them, the 1st Ed AD&D books and my GMPubs set are the only things I kept after selling everything earlier on this year.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:46 am 
 

Ian; just a quick sanity-check, please.

If it proves impossible to obtain permission to mirror "everything" in original format/content, what would be the feasibility of a compilation ("Confessions from Tortured Souls!"?) utilising the material that /can/ be reprinted, replacing artwork/cartography with new community-sourced versions as required? Not "ideal", I know, but still a very useful insight and potential inspiration for further quality material.
(Presuming POD delivery, relatively easy to expand should further permissions appear out of the woodwork at a later date, too).

ashmire13 wrote:I'd love a set of TS!, CDM etc in PDF form. I have the TS! In full paper so it'd be nice to keep PDFs for back up. I'll not sell my TS!

*nods* Same here. :)
"Everything" would be nice, but I'd still settle for a compilation if that's not possible.


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7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

  
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