Badmike wrote:Is that what this is about? Jesus Christ, I'll mail you a copy of Ghost Tower if you'll shut the fuck up. Wouldn't want your collection to have any holes in it. Sorry you lost out on the posters.
PDF Pirate King wrote:Start totalling it all up. As a quick estimate, lets say that the reputation/recognition of the author's/artist's work has allowed them to double their sales or charge twice as much as someone without that background (in many cases probably both).If you want to use Rob Kuntz as a benchmark we can do thatPied Piper Press:$8970 CAS1 $14.95 * 600 copies? (2 prints)$9570 CAS2 $15.95 * 600 copies? (2 prints)$8550 RJK-1 Collector $150 * 57 copies$10000 RJK-1 standard $20 * 500 copies$3000 Living Room $10 * 300 copies (can't remember original price)$4990 ERK-1 (collector) $24.95 * 200 copies$4990 ERK-1 (standard) $24.95 * 200 copies?$3585 Stalk (collector) $11.95 * 300 copies$3585 Stalk (standard) $11.95 * 300 copies?$3285 D&A (collector) $10.95 * 300 copies$3285 D&D (standard) $10.95 * 300 copies?Dungeon Sets #1 & #2Black Festival---------------$63810 - printing costs$33000 from Ebay auctions through Collector's Trove+ Maze of Zayene (original and D20 versions), Troll Lord Games modules, etc+ donations to PPP, sales of author copies and original notes, etcI think it is safe to say that Rob Kuntz has made $100,000 from his TSR/RPG reputation.Now, how about all the other former TSR employees? How many pieces of art do you think Elmore has sold? How many are even directly related to TSR product such as the Dragonlance prints? How about Wolfgang Baur, Monte Cook, etc? How much is the markup on all the Gygax auctions being sold because they belonged to Gary?I think millions is an accurate.
PDF Pirate King wrote:No that was just a bad jab and was uncalled for - I apologize. I have 3 copies of Ghost Tower that I don't know what to do with already - you already sent me a couple without my asking. I didn't bid on the posters, I have a couple already and they really aren't my thing anyway.What I don't like and don't really understand is that you, of all people, who makes a living by selling legal product and organizes a con (i.e. obviously has some man love for the hobby) can so easily ignore copyright and support PDF piracy. I know where Ian is coming from - he has been upfront about PDFing material since the day he arrived at the Acaeum.
BadMike wrote:Point out how much Jim Ward, Frank Mentzer, Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, Erol Otus, Jeff Dee or really any other ex-TSR employee from the beginning of the company is making off their work (which has made millions for later owners of the company, WOTC and Hasbro) and I'll promise I'll get angry the next time someone makes a photocopy of a copy of a 1E module for home use. If the work is not in print and the original creator is not seeing a dime from any re-publication that may not happen, I'm not too upset.
Pipswich wrote:Even IF they sell twice as much and for twice the price, you didn't discount the amount they would have sold if some portion of the difference should be attributed to their involvement in TSR. Did you discount for wholesale sales? And, don't forget marketing/selling costs, loss and printing errors that are not actually the printers fault and force expensive extra blues, or reprints.
Finally, $100,000 ???? Are you kidding! These are professionals with skills, publication credits and public persona's that represent work. If they only "earned" $100,000 from RPG related work, post TSR.... they should have gone to work at Wal Mart instead.
What the heck do you begrudge them?
Badmike wrote:The Ghost Tower was a mistake based on information we had at the time and I still believe ethically and legally we did nothing wrong; we were never served with any cease and desist and when we talked to a WOTC rep we voluntarily stopped even though if we had a bank vault full of money we could have won a case, I believe, but it was never about that.
Badmike wrote:Laws are decided by those that have money, and I believe sometimes people have a moral and ethical right to oppose those laws when they are unfair or blatantly serve the purposes of the uber-wealthy (the old "I'm starving can I steal food?" dilemma).
Badmike wrote:In Ian's case, I have been following his journey over the years and I really believe he has done the BEST he can to cover all his bases...
Badmike wrote:I hate to say it I agree with Pip, there doesn't seem to be anything constructive going on here. Let Ian continue his project and if he publishes it and no one says anything, that's fine by me. If someone raises holy hell, then we have our answer. One way or another it'll either get done or not whether or not we are bitching about it either way.
Badmike wrote:the old "I'm starving can I steal food?"
Badmike wrote:if I was, say, 95% sure I had the complete rights to reprinting Minotaur's Lair I would go ahead and do so, as I care more about the material being out there than I do the extremely tiny chance someone will protest (and if they did, I would immediately cease publication).
Badmike wrote:The Ghost Tower was a mistake based on information we had at the time and I still believe ethically and legally we did nothing wrong; we were never served with any cease and desist and when we talked to a WOTC rep we voluntarily stopped even though if we had a bank vault full of money we could have won a case, I believe, but it was never about that.OK, I'll bite. What on earth made you both think - still think - that you were in the clear there: simply that it's no longer "in print", or what?
Badmike wrote:Laws are decided by those that have money, and I believe sometimes people have a moral and ethical right to oppose those laws when they are unfair or blatantly serve the purposes of the uber-wealthy (the old "I'm starving can I steal food?" dilemma).Sure.... So someone who's feeling relatively impoverished "craves" Beasts, Men & Gods or Tabletop Warriors' Fantasy Adventures but believes it's unfair that anyone flogging such old works should be asking more than a buck or two each nowadays, therefore they "demand" that .pdfs should be made available free-of-charge (additionally claiming that they're actually saving them from being "lost to the community as a whole" in the process, perhaps...). Where do you draw the line with your "ethics" that there's a perceived right to reprint works that you personally contributed nothing to, since that's hardly in the same category of "need" as ensuring that someone doesn't expire from lack of food.
Badmike wrote:I hate to say it I agree with Pip, there doesn't seem to be anything constructive going on here. Let Ian continue his project and if he publishes it and no one says anything, that's fine by me. If someone raises holy hell, then we have our answer. One way or another it'll either get done or not whether or not we are bitching about it either way.I think you know that I don't want to see this stuff disappear forever either but I also don't think breaching copyright is the way to preserve it. By not saying anything, you are encouraging Ian to go ahead and you know it wouldn't stop with TS! Some see this as a problem, others don't.
Badmike wrote:the old "I'm starving can I steal food?"This call also be stated: "I'm rich and want to stay rich, can I steal food?".
Badmike wrote:if I was, say, 95% sure I had the complete rights to reprinting Minotaur's Lair I would go ahead and do so, as I care more about the material being out there than I do the extremely tiny chance someone will protest (and if they did, I would immediately cease publication).This is also where I start to wonder. Risk/Reward. There are probably a dozen copies of this out there in collector hands and maybe 25 people have ever posed an interest in bidding/obtaining a copy. Why would you try to bring it into the mainstream? This is however, more the type of item that I would encourage someone to go after - get the okay from the author/artist (often same person) and start printing. I'm pretty sure I talked to this guy and they weren't interested in it. Magazines are a whole other issue.
BadMike wrote:Point out how much Jim Ward, Frank Mentzer, Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, Erol Otus, Jeff Dee or really any other ex-TSR employee from the beginning of the company is making off their work (which has made millions for later owners of the company, WOTC and Hasbro) and I'll promise I'll get angry the next time someone makes a photocopy of a copy of a 1E module for home use. If the work is not in print and the original creator is not seeing a dime from any re-publication that may not happen, I'm not too upset.With the previous statements, the opinion expressed here indicates that it is (morally) okay to breach copyright if it doesn't effect the little guy; i.e. breaching copyright on TSR stuff is okay because the company has made millions off the products. Any new reprints would only benefit the large company and not the original author so no big deal. I'm just pointing out that all of these former employees were paid for their work, developed their skills while working for the company, had access to the other masters in their fields, etc. Also, they gained opportunities for make more money after leaving TSR because of their relationship to TSR and the products they created for TSR. So while, TSR is "making millions" off of their products and they aren't seeing a penny of it, these authors/artist (combined) have also "made millions" in comparison other authors/artists who are just as talented (or could have been) that didn't work for TSR.
Badmike wrote:What we did or didn't think, knew or didn't know, were told or weren't told, is something I'd never share with you anyway. We were in contact with WOTC the entire time, though. Bite away.
I was given an email address and I sent an email basically explaining about our small old school Con and the fact I'd like to reprint in Digest format an exact copy of collectors edition of a tournament module produced by TSR for a GenCon in the 70's and that I'd like to sell these 100 copies to help support the Con. I sent this email more than once, never got a response. I went a head and decided I would print the module anyway, and I would give them away at the Con as Research Replicas. Since a large portion of our attendees are collectors and a large portion can also not afford an original copy of the 70's collectors edition of the tournament module. I only gave these copies away to people that made a donation to the Con. I destroyed the last 15 that were left over. Does that mean it was "okay", no... does that mean I might get in trouble, yes... I don't think anything I did will cause any revenue loss to WotC, but does that make it "okay", no... I printed them hoping I would get a response, but never did. Personally I think WotC wouldn't care, base on what they were being printed and used for, but if they told me it was okay, they would open a can of worms and who know what might happen... so I think they just decided to ignore it.
Badmike wrote:Once again, a specious argument. Obviously any jackass would know I wasn't literally comparing food to D&D modules unless they were intent on a purely theoretical hyperbole filled bullshit argument. It hurts to even form the arguments to make them understandable to cretins so I'm not even going to respond, except to say if a free pdf popped up of Tabletop Warriors (of which I have a stake in) I couldn't care less. As for where I "draw the line", that's for me to decide and I could personally give a shit what you think about it. Seriously, I can't even measure how little your opinion matters to me.
Badmike wrote:The aim has always been to get these items out to the collector that cannot afford the originals, at an affordable price, while making NTRPG con a place that collectors want to attend so they won't miss out on various con goodies available nowhere else.
Badmike wrote:So, yeh, frankly I couldn't give a damn what Hasborg thinks about anything, unless they are willing to start paying Frank, Rob, Tim, Jim, et al royalties off the creations that are now helping them reap millions.
ashmire13 wrote:Just a little thought of my own, but I was very happy to buy a PDF of PotV from the NTRPG via Doug on his site.Whether it was legal or not...
ashmire13 wrote:Maybe I misunderstand it, but I see items like that as ok, because no-ones making a profit, no-one loses out becausethe original authors have already made their money and it's not a new product inthe same way as music or video game piracy.
ashmire13 wrote:I'd love a set of TS!, CDM etc in PDF form. I have the TS! In full paper so it'd be nice to keep PDFs for back up. I'll not sell my TS!