Upper Works review?
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Post Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:23 am 
 

serleran wrote:It is my understand that companies don't tend to care about these things... when they don't know about them. However, if it becomes part of their attention, and they still do nothing, then perhaps they simply did not care at all, or lack the means to prevent it. That does not mean it is "OK" to do it, however.

That is my take on it.
The only issue is a moral one, once a company has demonstrated no interest in deffending it's copyright.
serleran wrote:Oh, and Troll Lord Games has no rights, as I take it, to any of the Castle Zagyg products. You'd have to go to Gygax Games, or Trigee, or whoever for the people who do... and, as I hear it, they are currently talking to lawyers, so it may not be the best time to start trying to mess with their IP, seeing as that is exactly what they are looking to protect.

TLG do own copyright over the physical layout of the product, and they also own trademark over their name, and the use of their logo. So permission would need to be sought from TLG to create a PDF incorporating their name and logo and the layout of their product.


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:17 am 
 

About the only reasons I am not holding more than ONE copy of the CZ:UW Box Sets, are:
Too Fragile-  The Boxes are cheap Cheap CHEAPLY made! The one I have is already stating to creep steadily away from the ranks of newish looking stuff.
Too Much- The Box Sets are Too expensive now and that wont likely ever change.
Yes, I know that I should have ordered two sets while they were cheap :roll:  ( ... well at Retail Price anyway...)

That Said, If I do not find a PDF of The CZ:UW someplace (Soon), then I will make my own PDF Copy and I dont much care what others think of that plan.  8O

The Grandkids want to play some D&D and (eventually) they will wander the lands until they stumble across that (Seemingly) abandoned castle.
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GK1: "Hmmm... I wonder whats in that place?"
GK2: "I dont know, Lets have a look!"


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:16 pm 
 

Unfortunately, I'll never own this as a set, but I'd certainly buy or 'find' a pdf  :)


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:27 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:Unfortunately, I'll never own this as a set, but I'd certainly buy or 'find' a pdf  :)

That is something I would not wish to contribute to.


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:39 am 
 

that's fair enough, nor would I expect it as your contributions on this thread are clear and honourable. If there were less pirated pdfs available, more people would buy the original or buy a licensed pdf.
That is my first option now, as I wont spend that much on an item that piques my interest.
However I have found some pdf items so good that I have then bought the original book or boxset!
I have never uploaded items for others use though, nor would I. Any pdf collection is my own personal collection


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:32 am 
 

ashmire13 wrote:that's fair enough, nor would I expect it as your contributions on this thread are clear and honourable. If there were less pirated pdfs available, more people would buy the original or buy a licensed pdf.
That is my first option now, as I wont spend that much on an item that piques my interest.
However I have found some pdf items so good that I have then bought the original book or boxset!
I have never uploaded items for others use though, nor would I. Any pdf collection is my own personal collection

I must spend between $800 and $1000 a year on PDFs, predominantly through RPGNow, with the occasional visit to Lulu. I also spend a few hundred dollars a year on ebooks for my eReader. I heartily support electronic publication. Rarely will I buy a hardcopy, and the only hardcopies I do buy are those I consider highly proffitable as I am a reseller. I also buy harcopies of things not available in PDF and digitize them. And I try to promote the publication and rerelease of stuff in PDF form as and when I find publishers and authors willing to listen, often offering them the documents and my services for free, with a view to actually seeing product legitimately released.

The only time I would consider 'publish and be dammed' would be in the event that I had spend a lot of time trying to find the copyright holders and had come up blank. Not months, but years. Only if I considered it of particular benefit to the community at large to have access to the materials, hardcopies were beyond most peoples reach, and there was little chance of an electronic release impacting on the collectable nature or value of the original hardcopies.

Only one of those conditions can be said to exist with CZ:UW (that of price being outwith most people's reach), and none of them for Yggsburgh. As both the copyright holder, and the publisher are known and contactable, and the web of ownership is complexed, the only way a legitimate PDF could be released would be is Trigee license TLG to republish in PDF (or visa versa) and that isn't gonna happen.

We are left only with the moral issue of whether I should pass a backup PDF to someone I know has bought a legitimate hardcopy. And exploring that issue was the purpose of my post. Everyone's responses have given me food for thought.


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:38 pm 
 

We are left only with the moral issue of whether I should pass a backup PDF to someone I know has bought a legitimate hardcopy. And exploring that issue was the purpose of my post. Everyone's responses have given me food for thought.


It's not a moral issue. The law is very, very clear on this point. It is illegal to distribute digital copies that you made of items in your collection without permission from the copyright holder. It doesn't matter if you think or know if someone else supposedly owns the item in question or not.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:58 am 
 

jcp wrote:
It's not a moral issue. The law is very, very clear on this point. It is illegal to distribute digital copies that you made of items in your collection without permission from the copyright holder. It doesn't matter if you think or know if someone else supposedly owns the item in question or not.

The moral issue is whether or not one feels it is acceptable to exercise ones own set of values when the prescribed rules run contrary to what one believes to be fair and just. I do not disagree. I just regard it as law written to prevent large scale piracy (even individual piracy) and I believe that owning a copy of something you purchased for a lot of money and want to preserve and use, is fair and just. If the publisher and/or copyright holder cannot make that possible due to political conflict, I still think it fair and just that owners should be able to preserve and use their product, even if that conflicts with a law designed to combat piracy.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:10 am 
 

OK.
I Have a question for the Copyright Rules lawyers out there.

Yes, I know the example below is NOT on the same scale, but it is still the same intent.
To make copies of an original work for public consumption.
Not saying that Dot wants to produce copies for public consumption either.
He has made it VERY clear what he wants to do.

How many Museums, Corporations (That collect expensive art), and individual Collectors who are filthy rich tend to have copies made of priceless (Or at least VERY expensive) pieces of art.
Most times, not jut ONE copy but several of them.
Statues, Paintings, Sculptures.... etc.

They then tend to SHOW the public the copies (Sometimes at more than one location at the same time) while for the most part the originals remain stored snug in a Vault somewhere else.
Those originals are forever unseen and mostly unkown to the general public.
Why are the artwork owners (and the copying artists) NOT chased by the Copyright police?
Dont tell me its because those originals are too old.
As we all know that is Not always true.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:15 am 
 

Certain institutes are given special rights when it comes to these things.  Libraries for example are able to make a complete copy of the item and store the original away.  Museums and Art Galleries probably have similar rights so the original is not lost or damaged.  Generally these places are more geared to storing and preserving the original.

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:36 am 
 

Google is archiving literature digitally that to all intent and purpose contravenes copyright law. They have been challeneged on this and they continue to do so.

If Google can set the precedence that it is okay to digitize a product without any concent of the author, then as far as I see, that same rule applies to all.

Of course, I'm not subject to US copyright law. As I understand it, I cannot be tried for a civil offence under US law, as the civil offence is committed in the UK. Therefor, if a case were to be brought, it would need to be brought in the UK under UK law.

Either way, it seems as though, regardless of written law, it remains okay to digitize product without consent. And for more than one person to have access to it (a corportation of thousands for example, even when only one copy is purchased). So it is merely and issue of whether to distribute to those in possession of physical copies or not. I very much doubt anyone would care to challenge that given that in a civil case, whilst they could prove breach of the law, there is no quantifiable damage caused to anyone.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:07 am 
 

This raises another question. If I make a digital copy of an item and then I sell the item, do I pass the copy to the new owner with the item, or do I destroy it?


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:10 am 
 

Along with the statement about Libraries and Museums/Gallaries that has been posted here on the forums before.

Apparently the copy must either be sent with the original, or destroyed.
In any case YOU cannot keep the copy since you no longer own the oiginal.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:30 am 
 

Gnat the Beggar wrote:Along with the statement about Libraries and Museums/Gallaries that has been posted here on the forums before.

Apparently the copy must either be sent with the original, or destroyed.
In any case YOU cannot keep the copy since you no longer own the oiginal.


So I could sell CZ:UW Complete with Backup PDF on a CD? That may be challenged by TLG or TriGee.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:26 pm 
 

. wrote:So I could sell CZ:UW Complete with Backup PDF on a CD? That may be challenged by TLG or TriGee.


To the best of my knowledge that would be completely legal. Both the original and the backup you made are your personal property and you can dispose of them as you wish.

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:53 pm 
 

jgbrowning wrote:To the best of my knowledge that would be completely legal. Both the original and the backup you made are your personal property and you can dispose of them as you wish.

I bet that would ramp the sale price up.  :D
But no way of controlling where the PDF went thereafter, and if Mars' reading of Clause 4a is correct, you may only reproduce portions of, and not the entirity of, something for your own personal use. Probably more prudent to destroy it.
That said, if it were sold legitimately along with its hardcopy, and it were then to go wild, it would not be something of my doing.


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:55 pm 
 

. wrote:if Mars' reading of Clause 4a is correct, you may only reproduce portions of, and not the entirity of,


This clause refers to scanning in parts of the book to be put up on a website or passed out amongst friends so it doesn't really apply to making a backup for personal use.

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:02 pm 
 

Mars wrote:This clause refers to scanning in parts of the book to be put up on a website or passed out amongst friends so it doesn't really apply to making a backup for personal use.

Cool. Could do an entire CZ DVD along with a set of hard copies.


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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:44 pm 
 

To the best of my knowledge that would be completely legal. Both the original and the backup you made are your personal property and you can dispose of them as you wish.


It is illegal to distribute in any way so-called back up copies of books or games you own. In fact as I have already stated many times it's not even legal to make back-up copies of books or games at all in the first place. As has been pointed out no one is going to rush to your house for making personal back up copies but if you start distributing them that is cause for more serious concern.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:08 pm 
 

jcp wrote:
It is illegal to distribute in any way so-called back up copies of books or games you own. In fact as I have already stated many times it's not even legal to make back-up copies of books or games at all in the first place. As has been pointed out no one is going to rush to your house for making personal back up copies but if you start distributing them that is cause for more serious concern.

Book I understand.
By 'game' I assume you mean printed materials.
This cannot apply to computer games distributed on CD or DVD as they only come with a 90 day warranty, and no one would ever buy a game that they were only legally allowed to use for 90 days if the got cyclic redundancy errors thereafter.

With book and persanal production and use of a PDF, I consider the law to be irrelevant and incorrectly applied. It is meant to combat general piracy and not meant to hinder or hamper the personal freedoms or rights of an individual to enjoy their own purchased products. Furthermore, I very much doubt it has ever been tested or would ever stand up in a court of law. So the law, as it is read and applies to an individual making PDFs for personal safety and use, is a complete irrelevance.

That only leaves whether or not passing a persoan copy to someone else is considered 'distribution' and under which circumstances, one might exercise one's own values over that prescribed by written law. It is quite clearly 'distribution' as passing it to another then falls outwith any deffinition of 'personal use by the creator', so the moral question is whether or not someone is willing and can justify to themselves, breaking civil law, how far they are willing to go, and how much risk they are willing to take on.

One would assume being in a foriegn country further deters prosecution, as it seems US civil law only applies to civil offences committed on US soil.


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