That is my dilema.

All the below is IMHO and I an not a lawyer. I am a publisher, however.

If you make a copy for yourself, you're kosher. The instant you provide a copy of your books to someone else, you become a pirate and are distributing pirated copies (except if you're providing a copy to a disabled person - such as a braille copy or a large-print edition of a work in which such doesn't already exist - I think). Even if everyone receiving a digital copy of your purchased property already has their own physical purchased copy of the work themselves.

You didn't make them a copy of their book, you made them a copy of your book. If they want copies of their book, they have to make copies of their own. Or they will have to send you their copies and you make a copy of their book for them and then return the original and the copy (acting as their agent). If they want to exercise their own right to make a backup copy of what they have purchased, they have to exercise them (or their agent must) with their own purchased property, not the property purchased by another.

Again, IMHO

Joseph Browning

. wrote:The difference is, she downloaded copyrighted materials she had neither paid to listen to, nor had any intention of paying to listen to, and then fabricated a series of lies when questioned about it, and put the claimant through two court actions.

Where as I, and presumably the recipient if I gave it to someone who I knew owned a copy, have both paid for the right to read and use the materials, and would be willing to pay for backup digital copies if they were made available, and neither party would lie of fabricate evidence in order to deny what we had done.

Clearly the woman in question intended to break the law, and clearly I do not. I merely wish to protect my investment, and the work of a much esteemed writer when I know there are likely less than 500 copies worldwide. In twenty years time there will likely be much fewer copies than that, and I will still hold the PDF file.

Clearly the law is an ass if it prevents an individual from protecting his own property, and the best way to deal with that is to ignore it and then defend it if the needs arise.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Chances are Troll Lords or whoever owns the rights aren't going to go after you no matter what you do.  BTW, the recording industry has already stopped bringing these sort of cases to trial due to several reasons, one being it's done nothing to stop piracy and another is that it's made the recording industry looks like horse's ass's as they tried to prosecute grandmothers, preteens and dead people (Or fined single mom's 1.9 million dollars...and amount that is 100% likely to get thrown out on appeal, leading to a 3rd trial...sigh...)

I'd rate the chance you'd be prosecuted for ACTIVELY distributing cd roms without permission at the chance you'll get hit by lightning next year.  The chance you'd be prosecuted for PASSIVELY distributing these behind the scenes are roughly the same as getting hit by lightning AND shark bit in the same year....

These are all accurate assumptions based on hundreds of hours of number crunching, btw, so I stand by them.....

As Americans (and human beings) for that matter, we spend far too much time worrying about stuff that will never happen to the point where you are paralyzed by statistical anomalies too small to matter.  The recent "Swine Flu Epidemic" is a case in point (It's roughly killed 1 percent of what the REGULAR flu kills every year, yet everyone has run around like ninnies worried the pandemic is going to wipe them out)

The bottom line is, odd or not, the law does not provide you with the right to make copies of the books and games you own. That said no one is going to come to your house and raid your game room looking for illegal copies you made for yourself of stuff you already bought. The minute you distribute those items to anyone else though you are most certainly crossing the line and it doesn't matter if the other person claims to own the item in question or not.

That pretty much says it all. Just like getting a ticket for driving one mile over the speed limit, the chances anyone will care about copies made are nil.  BTW, I'm still a little worried that Elektra recording is going to hunt me down for all those 8-track copies I made of Queen albums in the late 70s that I gave away for free....considering the recent recording case, and multiplying my fines for the last 30 years of interest, it's conceivable I may end up owing roughly the national deficit of 1.3 trillion dollars for that unfortunate decision made in the bloom of youth.....


Mike B.

jcp wrote:You still haven't answered the question though, why don't you just ask them for permission up front?

Too many people to seek permission from, and all for the sake of backing up something that is very rare (The odds are that CZ:UW is rarer that the beloved white boxes), and the odds are extremely high that none of the parties involved are able to make a decision because of the long protracted legal ramifications of doing so. It would probably take the better part of five years to get someone to get their finger out of their arse. Trigee do not own copyright outright. TLG own copyright of the product but not of some of the content. The odds are high that neither Trigee nor TLG own copyright over the maps, images or cover art within the product, and theoretically I cannot produce a digital copy (which in theory is a new publication) without first revising it to comply with the new OGL (which then requires a whol new set of permissions which are definately unlikely as it would be considered a new works).

No. The law is quite deffinately an ass. We should be allowed to keep copies of our own rares regardless of what the law says. The only way to deal with such a situation is to ignore it and take all reasonable precautions to ensure the PDF only goes to those who have hardcopies, and to tie those copies to the recipients to deter redistribution.

About the only reasons I am not holding more than ONE copy of the CZ:UW Box Sets, are:
Too Fragile-  The Boxes are cheap Cheap CHEAPLY made! The one I have is already stating to creep steadily away from the ranks of newish looking stuff.
Too Much- The Box Sets are Too expensive now and that wont likely ever change.
Yes, I know that I should have ordered two sets while they were cheap  ( ... well at Retail Price anyway...)

That Said, If I do not find a PDF of The CZ:UW someplace (Soon), then I will make my own PDF Copy and I dont much care what others think of that plan.  

The Grandkids want to play some D&D and (eventually) they will wander the lands until they stumble across that (Seemingly) abandoned castle.
Saying something like this:
GK1: "Hmmm... I wonder whats in that place?"
GK2: "I dont know, Lets have a look!"

ashmire13 wrote:Unfortunately, I'll never own this as a set, but I'd certainly buy or 'find' a pdf  

That is something I would not wish to contribute to.

ashmire13 wrote:that's fair enough, nor would I expect it as your contributions on this thread are clear and honourable. If there were less pirated pdfs available, more people would buy the original or buy a licensed pdf.
That is my first option now, as I wont spend that much on an item that piques my interest.
However I have found some pdf items so good that I have then bought the original book or boxset!
I have never uploaded items for others use though, nor would I. Any pdf collection is my own personal collection

I must spend between $800 and $1000 a year on PDFs, predominantly through RPGNow, with the occasional visit to Lulu. I also spend a few hundred dollars a year on ebooks for my eReader. I heartily support electronic publication. Rarely will I buy a hardcopy, and the only hardcopies I do buy are those I consider highly proffitable as I am a reseller. I also buy harcopies of things not available in PDF and digitize them. And I try to promote the publication and rerelease of stuff in PDF form as and when I find publishers and authors willing to listen, often offering them the documents and my services for free, with a view to actually seeing product legitimately released.

The only time I would consider 'publish and be dammed' would be in the event that I had spend a lot of time trying to find the copyright holders and had come up blank. Not months, but years. Only if I considered it of particular benefit to the community at large to have access to the materials, hardcopies were beyond most peoples reach, and there was little chance of an electronic release impacting on the collectable nature or value of the original hardcopies.

Only one of those conditions can be said to exist with CZ:UW (that of price being outwith most people's reach), and none of them for Yggsburgh. As both the copyright holder, and the publisher are known and contactable, and the web of ownership is complexed, the only way a legitimate PDF could be released would be is Trigee license TLG to republish in PDF (or visa versa) and that isn't gonna happen.

We are left only with the moral issue of whether I should pass a backup PDF to someone I know has bought a legitimate hardcopy. And exploring that issue was the purpose of my post. Everyone's responses have given me food for thought.

jcp wrote:
It's not a moral issue. The law is very, very clear on this point. It is illegal to distribute digital copies that you made of items in your collection without permission from the copyright holder. It doesn't matter if you think or know if someone else supposedly owns the item in question or not.

The moral issue is whether or not one feels it is acceptable to exercise ones own set of values when the prescribed rules run contrary to what one believes to be fair and just. I do not disagree. I just regard it as law written to prevent large scale piracy (even individual piracy) and I believe that owning a copy of something you purchased for a lot of money and want to preserve and use, is fair and just. If the publisher and/or copyright holder cannot make that possible due to political conflict, I still think it fair and just that owners should be able to preserve and use their product, even if that conflicts with a law designed to combat piracy.

Certain institutes are given special rights when it comes to these things.  Libraries for example are able to make a complete copy of the item and store the original away.  Museums and Art Galleries probably have similar rights so the original is not lost or damaged.  Generally these places are more geared to storing and preserving the original.

This raises another question. If I make a digital copy of an item and then I sell the item, do I pass the copy to the new owner with the item, or do I destroy it?