dbartman wrote:

There are some past threads here on this topic.  Although it might appear that it is easy to reproduce a duplicate of some of the early modules, the forger would find that they would have very little chance of getting away with it, especially multiple forgeries.  Very few of these modules exist so to pull off a forgery at least the following conditions would need to exist:

1. The would-be crook would have to have access to an original in good enough shape to duplicate.
2. The would-be crook would have to have a fairly extensive knowledge of the module's provenance in order to duplicate.
3. The would-be crook would have to have access to papers and materials which are probably no longer produced or at least are hard to obtain.
4. The would-be crook would have to reproduce a copy using technologies that are not easy to come by today.  A simple photocopy would more than likely be fairly obvious.
5. The would-be crook would need to have some skill at antiquing, since a fresh, spanking new copy would be very suspect, especially if there was more than one.
6. The would-be crook could not easily mass produce, since it would be diffucult to "launder" the resulting goods to a very small, fairly knowledgeable, and skeptical group of people.
7. The would-be crook would probably not make a lot of money on the endeavor and the risk would probably outweigh the effort spent.  Testament to this would be the fact that virtually no *discovered* forgeries have popped up over time for any of the rare items.

That being said, it is always best to purchase a rare collectible off of someone who is known to the community, reputable, and has some provenance on the item.  That will increase the odds that an authentic original has been acquired.  If there is any doubt, or if an individual wants to feel more secure in their purchase, it would be advisable to have the item "authenticated" by experienced role-playing community members, such as those that frequent The Acaeum.

I think you guys are making it to hard. All the would be forger needs is a copy of the original, a good printing program or a compliant printer, and an unsuspecting buyer.  Chances are most of us haven't seen, in person, something like a Rahasia, POTVQ, or item from that time period.  The forger wouldn't have to antique...there have been items sold in recent years (the many copies of the tournament version of Fazzlewood) that buyers have commented look "brand new").  And if someone who wasn't part of this community, new to collecting, or not very suspicious bought the item it might sit in their collection for years without anyone being the wiser (and having no access to comparing it to a real one).  The riskis really negligible....I'm not saying it's impossible, but I"d have to think it would be hard to sit across a police investigator and explain why you think your copy of POTVQ is a fake and have him keep a straight face...



Actually, I think the opposite. With very little effort and perhaps a small amount of skill a crook could pocket $5k or more with very little chance they would be caught or punished.  Don't forget the classic scam of "I've found this thing in my attic, I don't know what it is, how much would you give me for it?" the counterfeiter could pull with dealers or collectors in  "face to face" deals not on ebay.  I've seen people take chances buying classic Mustangs on ebay for 10K and getting swindled; don't tell me there aren't guys out there in our hobby that wouldn't be willing to drop $500 on a mint copy of "Pharoah" if someone walked up to them at a convention acting like they didn't know what they had, on the off chance it was the real thing!  



I've gone on record at the Acaeum many, many times wondering why this sort of thing isn't more widespread, given the state of some of the older stuff (basically, just photocopies of earlier stuff, like the tournament modules or editions of POTVQ).  We've seen it happen with less expensive items, but really, a smart conman will eventually realize it's much more lucrative to sell two copies of a fake Rahasia than a case load of "Monty's Dungeon".



Mike B.

Badmike wrote:
I've gone on record at the Acaeum many, many times wondering why this sort of thing isn't more widespread, given the state of some of the older stuff (basically, just photocopies of earlier stuff, like the tournament modules or editions of POTVQ).  We've seen it happen with less expensive items, but really, a smart conman will eventually realize it's much more lucrative to sell two copies of a fake Rahasia than a case load of "Monty's Dungeon".

Mike B.

the reason i asked in the first place was exactly what mike wrote -- being a lawyer (sue me!), i always assume the "best" in people.

RaisedFromTheDead wrote:Counterfeiting a module is fraud, since it is replication of documents, and falls under the FBI's jurisdiction. Bring in a counterfeit $1K module to an FBI field office and they'll take it seriously.

that's interesting, because in germany (where i'm from), an rpg publication wouldn't qualify as a "document" in its original sense. what you have described would still be fraud, nonetheless. on the other hand, proving that it is fraud would be very difficult if the perpetrator acted as mike described.

tomislav

I think a lot of it is how serious the investigator decided to take you.  In the scenario where the guy walks up to you at the con and wants to get rid of these "D&D things" he's had in his basement for years and you buy a mint Fazzlewood for $500 cash, there is no docmentation that a sale even  took place.  When you get buyer's remorse later and find out it looks photocopied, I just dont' see much happening except for the local cops taking a statement and saying they'll get back to you.  I guess a lot of it would depend on your willingness to really follow through with a lot of documentaton and evidence.  I have to think of all the types of fraud this could be very lucrative and of low danger to the criminal involved.

Mike B.

cameosis wrote:forgery of documents and fraud are not one and the same, and a game scenario is still not a document in the legal sense (at least not in germany) -- deed / instrument, if you wish (these would be the technical terms, they more precisely define what i mean than "document").

i would, on the contrary, say that there is a fundamental difference between a legal document (e.g. the constitution) and a work of fiction (e.g. a game scenario). the premises are completely different -- the constitution is a set of rules and rights upon which everything else is based and everyone has to adhere to. an rpg scenario only applies / appeals to those interested and can be altered at will (e.g. house rules).

Selling a copied or forged document(or book in this instance) as being original and authentic is fraud, as well as potentially being a breach in copyright.  Intentional misrepresentation is pretty much the basis for the US fraud laws.  

Proving that the misrepresentation was intentional might be difficult, but regardless that doesn't mean if the buyer can prove it is in fact a fake that he's SOL.  Under those circumstances, the seller would be forced to reimburse the buyer or face legal consequences, if not criminal, then civil.

if only I could bid and actually win em..

Brette:)

they aren't as rare as some, but now everyone seem to be bidding after the first couple slipped through..

Brette:)

TheHistorian wrote:What's the appeal?  Early KODT?

That's probably one of the big appeals.  Its also a fanzine that eventually turned into a full fledged magazine.

a Heroquest with Morcar and Ogre add ons



http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Heroquest-Board-g ... 5639412e26



£26 with 2 days to go, is that reasonable?

just keeping an eye on this then at the moment...