Tunnels and Trolls - Any Dedicated Collectors?
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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:00 pm 
 

Continue the Collecting Appraisal thread there, speaking about the staple/spiral bound 2nd ed. T&T books

faro wrote:
lokiwookie wrote:> You should be right for the staple/spiral bound matter. I will be strange to use staples, than spiral bound for their products.
> Perhaps until 1977 they used only staples (and so my copy was "mutilated") since the 4th printing of buffalo castle is spiral bound as well as the 4th ed. T&T (both released in 77)
> [EDIT] on Tome, TFM owns a 1976 copy of Buffalo Castle which is spiral bound. No mention about printing (my 1977 printing copy states 4th printing) so 3rd print?


I'm in agreement with Kynan that the comb bound copies are later per his footnote on corrections and cut-and-paste work.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that some sheets for the 2nd T&T had been left around unbound, but does require explanation and/or collaboration, IMHO: at present, afaik, you have the only "possible" item in that domain regardless of how it came to be bound.


I think that we can work out something, I could ship some early materials to compare. If anyone else have clues about staple/spiral bound history, he is welcome :)

faro wrote: There may well be other multiple small print runs for some early product where there's no change of printing information noted: the (staple-bound) Supplement, for example. I'd planned to dig around for other possible variations but it's a bit hit-or-miss under the circumstances and I only have a few spares of some of those.


Do you have any information about that? What let you think that Supplement could had several printing?


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:06 pm 
 

> Do you have any information about that? What let you think that Supplement could had several printing?

I distinctly recall different ink colors (black vs. blue), for one, but need to set aside those copies to compare when I next have a rummage through in order to confirm that's not just a pigment of my imagination. Compare http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1473 with http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 39#p394839 , for example.

> I wonder if the T&T UK print (the one with the spiral on cover) has several prints too.

*nods* That thought had occurred but no obvious differences thus far afaik from the handful of copies seen.
Rather surprising, perhaps, if there is only one print given that's the first RPG printed in the UK, but it was in good hands. :)


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:49 pm 
 

faro wrote:> Do you have any information about that? What let you think that Supplement could had several printing?

I distinctly recall different ink colors (black vs. blue), for one, but need to set aside those copies to compare when I next have a rummage through in order to confirm that's not just a pigment of my imagination. Compare http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1473 with http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 39#p394839 , for example.


I have a copie of Supplement (not genuine), which is the same as TFM. I looked through it to understand what he means by the 1975 and 1976 sections. This confirms the possibility of 2 different prints.
At the end of your copy, is there the part "The following material was added to the Supplement in April of 1976"? It is 4 pages of additional rules (so apparently added in 1976 and that were not present in a previous print). If not, your copy will be a 1975 print and the TFM one a 1976.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:53 pm 
 

faro wrote:> I wonder if the T&T UK print (the one with the spiral on cover) has several prints too.

*nods* That thought had occurred but no obvious differences thus far afaik from the handful of copies seen.


If you looked to several copies, I don't think mine would be different in order to compare...


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:05 pm 
 

> I have a copie of Supplement (not genuine), which is the same as TFM. I looked through it to understand what he means by the 1975 and 1976 sections. This confirms the possibility of 2 different prints.

The (c) dates could easily be a misunderstanding of copyright rules, just as TSR updated the (c) for D&D from 1974 to 1975, then reverted back. i.e. for T&T, that could be a reminder that the original rules are (c) 1975 and the "supplement" is still 1976 (for however many printings...).
Being an early date, obtaining secondary evidence for when it first appeared is not that easy but I admittedly hadn't made any particular effort on that yet.

> At the end of your copy

There should be three or four (more likely) copies lying around here somewhere; only went out my way to pick up a couple IIRC and the others were "well used" copies in an old collection. One blue copy came from the same collection as the 3rd print linked above and I think there was a black copy with the 2nd print but don't believe I won that, unfortunately, as I'd already over-committed on the core book and was difficult to justify another $75-100 "on spec".

> , is there the part "The following material was added to the Supplement in April of 1976"? It is 4 pages of additional rules (so apparently added in 1976 and that were not present in a previous print).

Noted & thanks in advance for the cross-check, Géraud. :)


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:22 pm 
 

Speaking about copyright dates, this makes me thing of looking in Heroic Worlds.
HW mentions 2 print of 2nd ed. One "2nd ed., 1st pr., spine stapled, sea monster cover", one "2nd ed., 2nd pr., spiral bound, sea monster cover".
Finally, it could fit ;)

However, no mention of the US 3rd print (only the Digest size UK ed.).

The copy you pictured on Dragonfoot is a 3rd ed. isns't it? (like Kynan one http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1471)
On the last post, I state the difference between 2nd and 3rd ed. that I noticed when I compared these 2 different editions. If you have one or more 2nd ed. and/or 3rd ed. it would be interesting to see if the listed details match your copies.


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:47 pm 
 

i have a 2nd ed (3rd pr) and a 3rd ed both 42 pages and side stapled. the 2nd has an advertisement for starweb on page 42 and the 3rd ed does not. they are both copyright 1975. likewise i have two supplements: one has an orange illustration cover and is 10 pages, and the other has a black illustration cover and is 14 pages. the black one has an extra section starting on page 10 which says "the following material was added to the supplement in april of 1976." i hope this helps with what you're asking.


Last edited by stratochamp on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:52 pm 
 

I think so, thanks, but to preempt Géraud, does the orange supplement have any date indication other than 1975, Bill? (for better or worse, presuming there's no /definitive/ printing date).

Make that at least three, then. :)


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:55 pm 
 

no, the only date is the one referenced at the end of the first paragraph of text: 9/17/1975

  

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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:11 pm 
 

stratochamp wrote:no, the only date is the one referenced at the end of the first paragraph of text: 9/17/1975

It would be nice to think that was a more useful indication of actual printing/publication date than dates given in TSR publications of the period!
Good to know, though, cheers! :)


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Post Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:41 pm 
 

Oops, sorry; I didn't read back far enough...

lokiwookie wrote:Speaking about copyright dates, this makes me thing of looking in Heroic Worlds.
HW mentions 2 print of 2nd ed. One "2nd ed., 1st pr., spine stapled, sea monster cover", one "2nd ed., 2nd pr., spiral bound, sea monster cover".
Finally, it could fit ;)
However, no mention of the US 3rd print (only the Digest size UK ed.).


Yep; I didn't think Schick had all the material on-hand and was rather presuming he "guessed" at the chain of prints, flubbing that slightly. He does seem surer on Buffalo Castle but I wasn't too keen to take him "on authority" for either from what I'd actually observed previously.

lokiwookie wrote:The copy you pictured on Dragonfoot is a 3rd ed. isns't it? (like Kynan one http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1471)


*nods* Blue, to go with the blue supplement in this case (same owner).


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:01 am 
 

stratochamp wrote:i have a 2nd ed (3rd pr) and a 3rd ed both 42 pages and side stapled. the 2nd has an advertisement for starweb on page 42 and the 3rd ed does not. they are both copyright 1975.


Thanks very much! It helps, but it could add some new prints :)

Could you look on page 4, at the bottom, it there is what I mention on Tome, for the 2nd ed. that I listed? And if Dungeons & Dragons has been replaced by X. And in your 3rd print too.

I have the StarWeb ad. in my "spiral bound" 2nd ed. too.


stratochamp wrote:likewise i have two supplements: one has an orange illustration cover and is 10 pages, and the other has a black illustration cover and is 12 pages. the black one has an extra section starting on page 10 which says "the following material was added to the supplement in april of 1976." i hope this helps with what you're asking.


It fits with what observed between possible different prints. The 1975 print (1st) 10 pages. But orange illustration... my copy is orange cover with black illustration, but I was thinking it was a printing artefact. Orange illustration or orange cover?
As for the 1976 version, 12 pages or 14? 2 more sheets, so 4 more pages? Or really only 2 pages? My version has black illustration and 4 more pages (2 sheets)

So at least 3 prints, 2 without the addition of 1976 contents. Perhaps 4 if there is 2 additional pages, or 4.

stratochamp wrote:no, the only date is the one referenced at the end of the first paragraph of text: 9/17/1975


Seems to be the same date in all prints.

faro wrote:I didn't think Schick had all the material on-hand and was rather presuming he "guessed" at the chain of prints, flubbing that slightly. He does seem surer on Buffalo Castle but I wasn't too keen to take him "on authority" for either from what I'd actually observed previously


Yes some errors in HW, Schick is not perfect :) but at least he gives information that we can use sometimes.
My guess is "why saying that a spiral bound exists if he never saw any print like this one, nor heard about one?".
I think that the similarity between my copy and HW is too strinking to be a simple coincidence, don't you think?

Buffalo Castle is rather inextricable in printing history  :?


faro wrote:*nods* Blue, to go with the blue supplement in this case (same owner).


I was just speaking about the cover, 3rd ed. instead of 2nd (like mine) :) The text is the same as the Kynan one, and Tunnels & Trolls is written on top left.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:39 am 
 

Page 4 of my t&t 2nd ed 3rd pr does have d&d having been replaced by x.... my 3rd ed. reverts back to mentioning d&d.....as for the 1975 supplememt. it is very light colored cover (tan maybe?) with the illustration in orange......i'll check tonight on the page count on the 1976 supplement.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:54 am 
 

Thanks, and another question, how do you recognize "3rd print" of your 2nd ed.? Is it stated somewhere? I looked through my copy and no information about printing.


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:18 pm 
 

on the title page, under the table of contents, second sentence.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:22 pm 
 

i edited my earlier post. my 1976 T&T supplement is in fact 14 pages (not the 12 i had previously typed). sorry for the confusion....

  

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Post Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:45 pm 
 

stratochamp wrote:on the title page, under the table of contents, second sentence.


Thanks! Sorry for MY confusion too. It is stated in mine as well. I didn't notice that. I need to sleep  :oops:

So it seems to be legit to think that there is at least three 2nd ed. printings.

Need information from David 2nd pr. copies now :)


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