Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:50 pm 
 

I came across a copy of DCC #51 Castle Whiterock for sale on eBay and decided to see how much it would sell for.  It turns out that it sold for more than I thought it would and went into research mode on DCC module sale prices.  It appears that early DCC modules have held their value overall and many of the rarer and bigger modules have gone up substantially.  I bought DCC #51 for $49.00 and many sell for around $100.00 today.  Anyway, most of you probably knew this, but it was a bit of a surprise for me.   8)


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Post Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:51 am 
 

benjoshua wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:I came across a copy of DCC #51 Castle Whiterock for sale on eBay and decided to see how much it would sell for.  It turns out that it sold for more than I thought it would and went into research mode on DCC module sale prices.  It appears that early DCC modules have held their value overall and many of the rarer and bigger modules have gone up substantially.  I bought DCC #51 for $49.00 and many sell for around $100.00 today.  Anyway, most of you probably knew this, but it was a bit of a surprise for me.   8)


You have to remember that for quite awhile retailers and others were dumping copies of CastleWhiterock on ebay for $50 or less despite the $100 cover price.  People might be surprised they are now going for full retail if not more and I suspect the prices will rise (along with all the other DCC stuff) since all back stock was dumped after Goodman switched to 4E and won't ever be reprinted.  I think there is substantial growth in the collector market with this.  FYI, the last two years we auctioned a DCC #1 1st print at NTRPG con, one went for $60 in 2012 and $100 this year.  With the dumping of stock on the market the last few years it's been a good time to complete your collections; I'd advise doing it now if you haven't already!

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Post Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:07 pm 
 

A couple of weeks back, I get this in the mail:

Image

Here's some pages from inside:
Image

Cool.  I like free stuff.  Looking through this fourteen page catalogue, I was interested to read how much the DCC line has grown.  I collected most of them until the covers turned white and 4th Edition after DCC number 52.  I have read many of them and like the old-school vibe many present.  What surprised me is how much the DCC line has become a collector's...... nightmare.  There are reprints and foil covers and variant covers and foil covers and on and on.  It describes the rarest DCC adventure ever, and no, it's not #3.5!

I guess that begs the question, when does collecting become more important than the game that started the interest in collecting?  And is that a problem?  I realize I am asking a community seriously devoted to collecting so I apologize if it appears I am trolling.  I am not.  The catalogue emphasizes the artist covers and editions and collectibility more than the gaming goodness.  I am not begrudging Goodman Games trying to make a living, but the commercialization feels beyond enterprising.  Maybe I was hoping for more hobby hype.  Maybe I don't understand company catalogues or gaming companies.  I am curious if anyone else received the catalogue and what impression you had from looking at it.   :?:


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:49 pm 
 

I received one too.  It came with some extra Kickstarter items recently.  Brought a smile :)  I like old-school Hobby Shop layout.

I'm as committed a GG collector as there is I think.  All the old 3E and DCC.  All the crappy 4E.  All the box sets and tourney mods.  All the new digests.  I collect because I like the products, really like the art, & Stroh is my favorite current rpg author.  

On the one hand, Goodman identifies the various printings with subtle but unmistakable changes - beyond foil/b&w/alternate art, an example of a would be different colors on the cover lettering  To me, that makes collecting different printings fun.  And pretty inexpensive.

On the other hand, it bugs me when I go the extra mile to collect a limited release, only to see them in the bargain web-store at the end of the year.  I'm thinking of the road-show event I organized to get a copy of Gliplerio's Gambit.  Sure, fun times.  But not a limited or exclusive item in the end.

Finally, (on the third hand I suppose), I think it's ok a publisher is aware his products have a following and an aftermarket, and we all understand business: it's easier to sell three copies to one customer than find three customers.  Still it's more fun when they don't point that stuff out.  

Just so there's no hard feelings, here's my Goodman collection :)

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:20 am 
 

Thunderdave wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:
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Good to see I'm not the only one with bookshelves sagging from the weight of their collection... Damn cheap bookshelves!

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:35 am 
 

Thunderdave wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:
Just so there's no hard feelings, here's my Goodman collection :)


Impressive!  I can easily imagine how someone with a huge Goodman Games collection would be thrilled with the catalogue and someone who doesn't collect any of that might be more likely to be put off.  Maybe I just had sour grapes?  I don't think so, but it may have been a factor in my initial reaction.   :?


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:17 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:A couple of weeks back, I get this in the mail:

Cool.  I like free stuff.  Looking through this fourteen page catalogue, I was interested to read how much the DCC line has grown.  I collected most of them until the covers turned white and 4th Edition after DCC number 52.  I have read many of them and like the old-school vibe many present.  What surprised me is how much the DCC line has become a collector's...... nightmare.  There are reprints and foil covers and variant covers and foil covers and on and on.  It describes the rarest DCC adventure ever, and no, it's not #3.5!

I guess that begs the question, when does collecting become more important than the game that started the interest in collecting?  And is that a problem?  I realize I am asking a community seriously devoted to collecting so I apologize if it appears I am trolling.  I am not.  The catalogue emphasizes the artist covers and editions and collectibility more than the gaming goodness.  I am not begrudging Goodman Games trying to make a living, but the commercialization feels beyond enterprising.  Maybe I was hoping for more hobby hype.  Maybe I don't understand company catalogues or gaming companies.  I am curious if anyone else received the catalogue and what impression you had from looking at it.   :?:


I hope you don't mind me weighing in on this, I've read a small amount of their products but don't own any. What I've read I thought they do have a pretty good product.

I'll relate this to comics since it is what I know and I had a similar reaction to it.

Like you I have no problem with a company making money. I always bought comics to read them. Obviously I would take care of what I purchased but it was always about what is inside. Some of my books would come out with multiple covers and/or retailer exclusive editions and the guy that I bought my books from would push that I should be interested in having them all or making sure I bought the rarest one. I had no problem with that, he's in the business to make money too. I wasn't that type of comic collector though, I'd pick the cover I liked the best and that would be the one I bought. The thing that would hurt a lot of people though were the retailer incentive books. Determined by the amount of pre-orders for a particular comic book, the comic store would get a number of exclusive and limited versions of the comic with their order. Could be 1 for 20 to 1 for 10,000, some of them were really rare. The intention of it was to convince comic shops to order big because incentive books would be sold by the Comic Store for anywhere from $10 to $200 each. Those really helped comic stores survive because their margins are pretty tight on new books, especially the smaller stores. Two problems though, those incentive books rarely held their value - hot for a few months maybe more, and then people would move on to the next hot book. Second and much worse, eventually the companies that made the incentives would go ahead and make a bunch more than the retailers could get and start selling them themselves. So what you thought was a really rare book that you paid $100 for, 3 months later you can buy the exact same book from the company for $10. But Comic companies are just wanting to sell their product and make money. On a regular edition comic book, they are probably making 50 cents per book or less and by selling the exclusive editions themselves - now they are getting $5 a book or more and most likely their customer is buying both editions.
It sounds like Goodman is following this trend. With a limited amount of potential customers, if they can sell the same customer multiple editions of the same book with only the added costs of one or two pages of artwork, they can double their sales on an edition. Think about this too, if the insides are the same. You're running all of the interiors at once and then a few different setups for covers, very economical that way.
I think the reality though is that if Goodman wasn't making a decent product, you'd lose interest. But since you like their product it doesn't matter much. What's bad for the collector that sees these special limited editions as some type of investment is that since people are buying multiple copies when they are being released, the market will be over saturated and they won't increase in value and more likely the opposite. Look at trading cards (baseball, etc), the companies that make them make all of the money, not the secondary market.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:45 pm 
 

Good analysis.  I collect comic books too.  Like D&D stuff, I consider my comic book collection modest (12 long-boxes).  The vast majority of my comics were bought off eBay and virtually none from the FLGS.  Like you, I noticed that comic books seemed to lose 80 to 90 percent of their value within weeks and stayed that way for around twenty to thirty years and then would slowly rise.  So, I bought comic books in large lots from eBay that were twenty to thirty years old, or older, and bought them for pretty cheap.  Of course, I only bought stuff I actually wanted to read, but this approach allowed me to get comics I loved to read at reasonable prices.  Finally, now that I have read many of them, I am planning to sell them off.   8)


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:22 pm 
 

Thanks benjoshua.

I do something similar occasionally. Buying Lots (listings) of multiple books on eBay and a larger collection or two at local auction when they're stuff I will probably like and the condition is decent. I've really gotten to the point that I have most of what I want (core collection), my local library is good about picking up Trade Paperbacks so anything I want to read is usually there once it is collected. It's been a long time since I've counted them but I think I'm around 5-6000 books, I'm at the point now that I'd like to pare them back to around 500 - just the stuff I could read multiple times and always enjoy it.

You definitely have it figured out on getting big lots of books to have constant reading material. That's something I had to think a lot about though especially since I'm reading new TPBs from the Library and not buying from a Comic Store - I'm not supporting the creators anymore. It's one of those tough realities of the Secondary Marketplace and please don't think I'm condemning your decision to buy that way, like I said - I'm doing it too. Quite a while ago I was fortunate to meet one of my favorite Rock Bands and thought they would enjoy a little story about how I discovered them. It started with that I had lucked into seeing their CD in the Library etc, etc. They were PO'd about hearing that and I kept holding up their CD and saying "Look, look, I own it now, I probably never would have discovered you if it wasn't there." They didn't care and honestly, it's not my problem their stuff is in the Library - they need to go talk to their distributor about that. One of my early pleasures of spending money on this stuff was being able to buy some of the Judge's Guild pdfs online and knowing it was going to Bledsaw's estate. On the other side of it, I wasn't real happy when I found out the hard way that some of the material didn't have the maps with it, oh well.

I'll say it again, please don't take this as preaching on you. It's just something I think a lot about. I wish I still gamed today, the Internet has empowered us so much in allowing us to support the individuals that make the things we appreciate. I'm constantly amazed by it. I follow a few very small Book Publishing Houses and try to buy everything they put out. Half of the books I don't even read and may never do but I just believe that much in what they are doing.

Speaking of books, this is getting a little like one so I guess I'll end it here :)  Great talking to you benjoshua.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:38 pm 
 

benjoshua wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:
Cool.  I like free stuff.  Looking through this fourteen page catalogue, I was interested to read how much the DCC line has grown.  I collected most of them until the covers turned white and 4th Edition after DCC number 52.  I have read many of them and like the old-school vibe many present.  What surprised me is how much the DCC line has become a collector's...... nightmare.  There are reprints and foil covers and variant covers and foil covers and on and on.  It describes the rarest DCC adventure ever, and no, it's not #3.5!

I guess that begs the question, when does collecting become more important than the game that started the interest in collecting?  And is that a problem?  I realize I am asking a community seriously devoted to collecting so I apologize if it appears I am trolling.  I am not.  The catalogue emphasizes the artist covers and editions and collectibility more than the gaming goodness.  I am not begrudging Goodman Games trying to make a living, but the commercialization feels beyond enterprising.  Maybe I was hoping for more hobby hype.  Maybe I don't understand company catalogues or gaming companies.  I am curious if anyone else received the catalogue and what impression you had from looking at it.   :?:


No it's not a problem. It's not uncommon for a business to have people "take another bite at the same apple..." with additional special releases.

And yes, I believe you are correct that GG (and not just them...) go full-blown commercialization. Having said that, if they can produce a "special copy" of a book for $100, make 1000 copies of it, and sell it, then no one is really getting hurt. Obviously GG knows their player base, and who's buying what.


So back to your first question: When does collecting become more important than the game that started the interest in collecting? If you're still playing the game, then it doesn't... ever...

I would hope we all still play... some more than others (I play once or twice a week).


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:01 pm 
 

Thunderdave wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:I received one too.  It came with some extra Kickstarter items recently.  Brought a smile :)  I like old-school Hobby Shop layout.

I'm as committed a GG collector as there is I think.  All the old 3E and DCC.  All the crappy 4E.  All the box sets and tourney mods.  All the new digests.  I collect because I like the products, really like the art, & Stroh is my favorite current rpg author.  

On the one hand, Goodman identifies the various printings with subtle but unmistakable changes - beyond foil/b&w/alternate art, an example of a would be different colors on the cover lettering  To me, that makes collecting different printings fun.  And pretty inexpensive.

On the other hand, it bugs me when I go the extra mile to collect a limited release, only to see them in the bargain web-store at the end of the year.  I'm thinking of the road-show event I organized to get a copy of Gliplerio's Gambit.  Sure, fun times.  But not a limited or exclusive item in the end.

Finally, (on the third hand I suppose), I think it's ok a publisher is aware his products have a following and an aftermarket, and we all understand business: it's easier to sell three copies to one customer than find three customers.  Still it's more fun when they don't point that stuff out.  

Just so there's no hard feelings, here's my Goodman collection :)

Attachment:
IMG_3029.JPG


Great collection, I have collected most of this as it came out but no real multiples (a few for the tourney and limited items). Your setup looks very impressive :)

A follow up to Mister Yuks comments about comics, I have a comic and game store (going on 30 years now) and the margins are actually quite good; we get a 55% off of retail discount from our supplier for most titles.  The advent of the multiple covers has really increased sales, many customers now will buy the mass released book and one of there favorite covers so we are selling more books to the same people in general.  One problem is that there are so many alternate covers we just cant keep up.  We display the alternates each week (sometimes  over 30 different titles get alternate covers of one or more variants) and sell them for $5 - $50 depending on there rarity. if these don't sell in 3 weeks they all get discounted to $5 and stuff into a special bin in the store, we have 3-4000 of these alternate variant covers in the store at any given time.  Overall though sales have increased due to these variants.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:11 am 
 

Mister Yuk wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:
benjoshua wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:A couple of weeks back, I get this in the mail:

Cool.  I like free stuff.  Looking through this fourteen page catalogue, I was interested to read how much the DCC line has grown.  I collected most of them until the covers turned white and 4th Edition after DCC number 52.  I have read many of them and like the old-school vibe many present.  What surprised me is how much the DCC line has become a collector's...... nightmare.  There are reprints and foil covers and variant covers and foil covers and on and on.  It describes the rarest DCC adventure ever, and no, it's not #3.5!

I guess that begs the question, when does collecting become more important than the game that started the interest in collecting?  And is that a problem?  I realize I am asking a community seriously devoted to collecting so I apologize if it appears I am trolling.  I am not.  The catalogue emphasizes the artist covers and editions and collectibility more than the gaming goodness.  I am not begrudging Goodman Games trying to make a living, but the commercialization feels beyond enterprising.  Maybe I was hoping for more hobby hype.  Maybe I don't understand company catalogues or gaming companies.  I am curious if anyone else received the catalogue and what impression you had from looking at it.   :?:


I hope you don't mind me weighing in on this, I've read a small amount of their products but don't own any. What I've read I thought they do have a pretty good product.

I'll relate this to comics since it is what I know and I had a similar reaction to it.

Like you I have no problem with a company making money. I always bought comics to read them. Obviously I would take care of what I purchased but it was always about what is inside. Some of my books would come out with multiple covers and/or retailer exclusive editions and the guy that I bought my books from would push that I should be interested in having them all or making sure I bought the rarest one. I had no problem with that, he's in the business to make money too. I wasn't that type of comic collector though, I'd pick the cover I liked the best and that would be the one I bought. The thing that would hurt a lot of people though were the retailer incentive books. Determined by the amount of pre-orders for a particular comic book, the comic store would get a number of exclusive and limited versions of the comic with their order. Could be 1 for 20 to 1 for 10,000, some of them were really rare. The intention of it was to convince comic shops to order big because incentive books would be sold by the Comic Store for anywhere from $10 to $200 each. Those really helped comic stores survive because their margins are pretty tight on new books, especially the smaller stores. Two problems though, those incentive books rarely held their value - hot for a few months maybe more, and then people would move on to the next hot book. Second and much worse, eventually the companies that made the incentives would go ahead and make a bunch more than the retailers could get and start selling them themselves. So what you thought was a really rare book that you paid $100 for, 3 months later you can buy the exact same book from the company for $10. But Comic companies are just wanting to sell their product and make money. On a regular edition comic book, they are probably making 50 cents per book or less and by selling the exclusive editions themselves - now they are getting $5 a book or more and most likely their customer is buying both editions.
It sounds like Goodman is following this trend. With a limited amount of potential customers, if they can sell the same customer multiple editions of the same book with only the added costs of one or two pages of artwork, they can double their sales on an edition. Think about this too, if the insides are the same. You're running all of the interiors at once and then a few different setups for covers, very economical that way.
I think the reality though is that if Goodman wasn't making a decent product, you'd lose interest. But since you like their product it doesn't matter much. What's bad for the collector that sees these special limited editions as some type of investment is that since people are buying multiple copies when they are being released, the market will be over saturated and they won't increase in value and more likely the opposite. Look at trading cards (baseball, etc), the companies that make them make all of the money, not the secondary market.


I ended up getting out of comics collecting because of the shenanigans.  Early '90's (I think) a new Batman title came out.  The #1 issue came out in like seven different variant covers.  But the killer was, the cover design was exactly the same and only the background color was changed.  That was it, I was done, lol.



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Post Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:12 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:
A follow up to Mister Yuks comments about comics, I have a comic and game store (going on 30 years now) and the margins are actually quite good; we get a 55% off of retail discount from our supplier for most titles.  The advent of the multiple covers has really increased sales, many customers now will buy the mass released book and one of there favorite covers so we are selling more books to the same people in general.  One problem is that there are so many alternate covers we just cant keep up.  We display the alternates each week (sometimes  over 30 different titles get alternate covers of one or more variants) and sell them for $5 - $50 depending on there rarity. if these don't sell in 3 weeks they all get discounted to $5 and stuff into a special bin in the store, we have 3-4000 of these alternate variant covers in the store at any given time.  Overall though sales have increased due to these variants.


Yes, thanks for correcting me on that. The comic store that I bought most of my books from operated more as a club than a typical retail store with heavy discounts on new books depending on how much a person bought AND preordered. I would guess that 55% is much better than plenty of other retail stores out there.
My point was and it sounds like you're in agreement is that those incentives and alternate covers do work. Stores like you and the companies that make the product need to make money and every little bit helps. As much doom and gloom as we hear about the comic industry, I really do appreciate hearing that you are doing well at it.

Invincible Overlord wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:So back to your first question: When does collecting become more important than the game that started the interest in collecting? If you're still playing the game, then it doesn't... ever...


Agree and very well said

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:24 am 
 

muaddib5 wrote in Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions:
I ended up getting out of comics collecting because of the shenanigans.  Early '90's (I think) a new Batman title came out.  The #1 issue came out in like seven different variant covers.  But the killer was, the cover design was exactly the same and only the background color was changed.  That was it, I was done, lol.


It's kind of funny that I got back into comics when you were getting out and I've taken some criticism but that's where I really learned about collecting - so I do owe comics that. Before that I was just buying stuff without a purpose.

My last comment on here that's not specifically about Goodman Games, I promise :)

  
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