Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:46 am 
 

tacojohn4547 wrote:Hi guys,

I don't post a lot here, as you regulars can attest, but I do kind of peek my nose in to see what the vibe is from time to time.  
I think you know that I am a straight shooter with my posts and that I don't spin information to make it more favorable.  


Always enjoy the insight of your posts, John!!!


I also think that Goodman Games has done a lot of things right, even given the context of this forum.  But their business, their DCC product line, has always been about putting out adventures that are going to get played, first and foremost.  The collecting of the DCC's happened because there was some attraction to the product, the print runs were fairly small, the prices were affordable, whatever the reason.  But my point is that Goodman Games' core business was producing DCC's for gamers that wanted to play them, not just collect them.
 

I agree. Certainly people like myself are a very, very niche part of their customer base, people who basically buy and collect the product for it's old school look and tone.

I also think that their 'embracing the entire "old school" philosophy whole heartedly' was less than full and complete.  There were certainly examples in the DCC line that were more old school in flavor and philosophy than others, but when you opened them up, they were often populated with monsters and NPC combos that smacked of new school design sensibilities.  And the focus on encounter level and proper balance for the 3.5 gaming crowd is decidedly not old school in design philosophy.


I agree.  But I noticed that in contrast to a lot of 3E stuff on the market, Goodman games items were much easier to convert to a old school format (1st or 2nd ed) than, say, a Necromancer product.  Mostly because their adventures were usually pretty basica and linear and didn't go in for a lot of bells and whistles.  

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not turning my back on Goodman Games or the DCC line.  Ha - not hardly!  But I do think a lot more could have been done as the DCC product line rolled out over the last 3 or 4 years to have more fully embraced the entire "old school" philosophy.  But, who knows if the product line would have been as successful as it was had that been done.  


I honestly think it would have been MORE successful.  You can't convince me that small side printings of, say, DCC's #1-#8 in 1st edition format wouldn't have completely sold out. Yes, completely sold out.  I don't think we are talking full scale changeover, just a wink and a nod to the old school gamer that is still out there and has PLENTY of money in their "old age" to indulge themselves.  Goodman games was in a unique position in the 3E market to benefit, with their use of Otus, Dee and Roslof as artists, and their basic philosophy, and I feel they may look into the past and realize they did drop the ball on inticing this segment of gaming to spend more money on their product.

Hasen't the bad 2006 Gen Con experience with the very limited print run of the 1E Iron Crypt of the Heretics been exercised with the second printing of that very same 1E conversion adventure and the very well done Saga of the Witch Queen that was released at Gen Con 2007?   :)

I know that my opinion may be viewed as biased, since I was involved in the release of both of those DCC conversions.  Heck, I am biased.   :roll:
But really, can't the Iron Crypt hatchet be burried?   :wink:


I don't have any negatives with that, since Goodman did the right thing (by printing copies of the item later).  But I do use that entire experience as an example of how Goodman simply had no clue what kind of market there was out there and no idea how to reach it, despite having all the pieces in place to do so. And I'm biased also  :wink:   But my bias is that I want to see more specific old school items out there, and I think Goodman was in a prime position to do so, and even profit from it.

I'm pretty sure that Erol Otis isn't getting $200 for cover illos in this day and age.   :roll:   Not sure about the others, though.  


I know Otus wasn't getting much more than that when he started, because it was discussed on an earlier thread.  $400?  $500? Whatever the amount I remember thinking it was awfully puny, since I had Roslof do a drawing for me for about the same amount.  The point was that Goodman wasn't just using old school artists because guys like me love the nostalgia, he was doing it because the old guys were CHEAP.

I truly think that the price point and the underlying cost factors were a  intentional design decision made by Goodman Games.  Not because they were too cheap to do something different, but because the goal was to publish more modular, cost-effective adventures than WotC was turning out in the 3.0 and then 3.5 eras.  Of course, that is purely my speculation - I don't have any inside skinny on what Joesph decides.  


I think you are right.  And I think it really worked for them.

Yeah, I agree with you that the look of the new DCCs is decidedly different than the DCCs released to date.  I'm not too crazy about it myself.  But to borrow a quote from a favorite old movie:

"Now now Mr. Scott, young minds, fresh ideas" (or some such)
-- James T Kirk

Funny thing is though, no one knows what new game stuff will be selling a year from now and what won't be selling.  For companies like Goodman Games, it's a really big guessing game at this point.


As I speculated, I think Goodman Games are taking a leap on this one and throwing behind whole heartedly into 4E. They have decided the way to go is newer, faster, more modern, etc.  What can you say they are now just like 90% of companies out there putting out stuff and trying to catch that elusive "younger" market.  My disappointment comes when I see thousands of potential money makers called "old school gamers" who are once again overlooked in favor of a quick fast buck.  I realize it's just the way of business, but who are the ones out there spending thousands of dollars for Tamos or Ghost Towers or Fazzlewoods or Bottle Citys? There is definitely a niche market out there ripe to be exploited, and it could make some smaller publisher (like Goodman) a nice tidy pile of money.  

IMO, Goodman was really the only company out there (besides Kenzer, who so half-assed the entire Hackmaster concept they made Goodman Games look positively committed) that stood to benefit from this segment of gamers.  It's too bad they never embraced the old school philosophy just a bit harder.  I do complement them for stuff like the 1st edition Iron Crypt and Saga of the Witch Queen; that's two more 1st edition modules than WOTC has managed to give us since the changeover!

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:05 am 
 

Not bashing Goodman Games....no no no!

Just sad about what the new DCC covers say about Goodman, the market and myself as a customer.

I don't think anyone is bashing Goodman anymore about the GenCon special edition mixup.  It was just a good example of midjudging the market...so it gets brought up over and over.

I don't think it is accurate to say that Goodman is jumping into 4th edition whole hog.  They have a game called Eldritch they are trying to launch.

It is difficult, at this point, to estimate the potential for Eldritch, or how it might play.  So far my analysis is that the artwork supporting the game is inadequate and the price is double what it should be.  (There is a subtle difference between "unprofessional" or "classic" art and "bad" art.  The concept art for Eldritch is bad.)  The price point is important because it is important to get players to try out a game.


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 12:24 pm 
 

Cool beans, guys.  Thanks for keeping the welcome mat out and the porchlight on for me.  :)  

BTW, I don't know how many of the regulars here visit the Goodman Games boards or how frequently you may visit Joseph's site, but there are a couple of threads in the DCC forum that hint at a 'new' product that will be of interest to the Acaeum community.  Pieceing together the two seemingly unrelated threads would take a bit of detective work, unless of course one was privy to more details than what scant detail has been posted. ;)

Linky #1 (look for the thread etitled Campaign Report: DCC#1 Rat King):
http://www.goodman-games.com/forum.htm

Linky #2 (look for the thread entitled Time for a new C&C DCC):
http://www.goodman-games.com/forum.htm



  


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:30 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Quote:
 I'm pretty sure that Erol Otis isn't getting $200 for cover illos in this day and age.      Not sure about the others, though.  

I know Otus wasn't getting much more than that when he started, because it was discussed on an earlier thread.  $400?  $500? Whatever the amount I remember thinking it was awfully puny, since I had Roslof do a drawing for me for about the same amount.  The point was that Goodman wasn't just using old school artists because guys like me love the nostalgia, he was doing it because the old guys were CHEAP.

I don't know how much Otus was or is getting payed, but I can offer some insight on how much IS payed. Not much. I was offered $200 to do the cover of The Temple of the Frog for Zeitgeist Games in 2006. I couldn't imagine Otus getting more than $500 today for a cover. Small press just doesn't have lots of money to spend. Though I think $500 is pretty good for 10 to 20 hours of work.

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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:47 pm 
 

I had a post ready, but I closed the wrong window *d'oh*

I listened to the podcast mentioned on the first page (April 27th podcast at http://www.ogrecave.com/audio/ )

My take-aways from the podcast:

- WotC has not finalized the 4e license yet.
- (Some? All?) DCC 4e modules will have inserts done by Fat Dragon Games.
- The first nine DCC 4e modules will be 3 series of 3 modules.  The first three modules will form the first series.

I'll definitely get the DCC modules.  The DCC 4e cover art isn't bad.  It does fit in with the more photorealistic WotC art, but it's a lot less spiky.  The layout of the module covers bugs me, especially the top 1/3, but maybe the final product will more balanced when price and other information is added.

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:55 pm 
 

It's good to know what it costs to do a cover. Thanks for the info guys.

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Post Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:38 pm 
 

I was offered $200 to do the cover of The Temple of the Frog for Zeitgeist Games in 2006.


But we've established that ZG doesn't pay its folks. So the going price was $0.00. I hope Erol got at least $500 for his Goodman covers. He seemed in a pretty good mood last Gen Con, so I can only assume it is worth his while.

  


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Post Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:45 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:...and three modules in a row by the same author intended for first level characters...(?)...they are not classic.


I could be mistaken, but I believe that 2 of the modules are by Harley Stroh, the same author that wrote 2 of Goodman's AD&D modules. So, by my interpretation, odds are in favor of the content being in line with oldschool design sensibilities, even if the covers are not.

  


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Post Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:58 pm 
 

goatboy wrote:I hope Erol got at least $500 for his Goodman covers. He seemed in a pretty good mood last Gen Con, so I can only assume it is worth his while.

I hope so too. I'd love to meet the man. I guess I should got to Gen Con.

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Post Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:00 pm 
 

goatboy wrote:I could be mistaken, but I believe that 2 of the modules are by Harley Stroh, the same author that wrote 2 of Goodman's AD&D modules. So, by my interpretation, odds are in favor of the content being in line with oldschool design sensibilities, even if the covers are not.

He's a nice guy too. He also wrote for Zeitgeist Games.

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Post Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 3:22 am 
 

Goodman Games site now has a new look.

And my site is linked by them in the Judges Guild section .. woo hoo! :)

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:41 pm 
 

Goodman Games are cleaning out their 3.5 stock...looks like the switch to 4E is official. Every one of the DCC's is 50% off...including the massive Castle Whiterock!

http://www.goodman-games.com/store.html

Time to put the finishing touches on that collection, guys....

Mike B.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:42 pm 
 

I hear you have to order at least 5 or no sale. That is unfortunate. I was hoping to get a particular one, but it is sold out, and I can't bring myself to buy things I simply don't want.


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Post Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:23 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Every one of the DCC's is 50% off...including the massive Castle Whiterock!

*d'oh*

  

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:10 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Goodman Games are cleaning out their 3.5 stock...looks like the switch to 4E is official. Every one of the DCC's is 50% off...including the massive Castle Whiterock!

http://www.goodman-games.com/store.html

Time to put the finishing touches on that collection, guys....

Mike B.


Man your hard on me Mike, just blew $150.00 :D


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:24 am 
 

Definitely a sweet deal!!!! 50% off plus free shipping (in the US).  :D  :D  :D

Thanks again, Mike.

Collection complete except for the ever elusive DCC 3.5, The Haunted Lighthouse. Does anyone want to part with their copy? ... Anyone?  ... Anyone?

Sigh...  :cry:


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:34 am 
 

smarmy1 wrote:Definitely a sweet deal!!!! 50% off plus free shipping (in the US).  :D  :D  :D

Thanks again, Mike.

Collection complete except for the ever elusive DCC 3.5, The Haunted Lighthouse. Does anyone want to part with their copy? ... Anyone?  ... Anyone?

Sigh...  :cry:


I've got the pdf..and that's as close as I'll ever come.

I noticed the Tournament version of Vault of the Dragon Kings is sold out (along with the Gazeteer of the Known Realms, which was available just yesterday).  Like anything that comes with minis, I'm going to predict in  afew years this could be collectible....as a matter of fact, with the switch to 4E and the divesture of all things 3E, I think Goodman Games has set the DCC series up to be one of the few bona-fide collectible lines of the 3E years. They won't be making them anymore, and it's not like they ever had print runs the size of WOTC stuff anyway.  Especially the limited items (3.5, 17.5, 12.5, 20.5) should go for big bucks in the future.

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:56 am 
 

En World #4 with DCC adventure 4.5 'My friend the Formian' for sale for those who want to collect them all.




** expired eBay auction **




When I was watching out for that one a while ago it came up fairly infrequently, though I haven't been watching of late.


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