Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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Post Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:22 pm 
 

The first run of the 1E version of DCC #12.5, for Gen Con, was done with a printer I'll call Printer A. Printer A did a decent job on the Gen Con products, and I asked them to do a second run to fulfill the online portion. Printer A delivered that second run in a defective condition. A small portion was salvageable, and went out to fill a limited number of orders, but most of the run was unacceptable. Those copies were destroyed and Printer A promised to deliver replacements. Their replacement run was delivered several weeks later and was largely sub-par as well. At that point I stopped working with Printer A and sent the job to Printer B, who produced the balance of the orders. So there were two printers and a total of four runs involved, if I remember correctly.


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Post Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:32 pm 
 

goodmangames wrote:The first run of the 1E version of DCC #12.5, for Gen Con, was done with a printer I'll call Printer A. Printer A did a decent job on the Gen Con products, and I asked them to do a second run to fulfill the online portion. Printer A delivered that second run in a defective condition. A small portion was salvageable, and went out to fill a limited number of orders, but most of the run was unacceptable. Those copies were destroyed and Printer A promised to deliver replacements. Their replacement run was delivered several weeks later and was largely sub-par as well. At that point I stopped working with Printer A and sent the job to Printer B, who produced the balance of the orders. So there were two printers and a total of four runs involved, if I remember correctly.

. . . and the print-run junkies start jonesin' for some 12.5 . . .

  

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:16 pm 
 

JohnGaunt wrote: . . . and the print-run junkies start jonesin' for some 12.5 . . .


I think we need a solid definition for what we want to define as a print run.

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Post Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:37 pm 
 

Mars wrote:I think we need a solid definition for what we want to define as a print run.

different content in gencon 12.5 with errors fixed after sounds better but still interest in printings thank you for information

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:48 am 
 

Mars wrote:
I think we need a solid definition for what we want to define as a print run.


From what Joe has said, IMO there are only really two:  Gencon, and post Gencon.  Anything besides that seems to be splitting hairs, especially since it will be impossible to definitively separate Print Run Crappy from Print Run Good after Gencon.  Getting rulers out to measure the size seems silly as there are no other attributes to compare; besides, Joe states that not ALL the bad print run were of sub-par quality, so it is definitively impossible to separate the runs.

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:54 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
Anything besides that seems to be splitting hairs,
Mike B.


But surely that's what we do best

Seriously though - Mike is right here IMO, 2 it is.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:54 am 
 

In that case, I think we can define different printings as having or exhibitings distinctly different graphic or text alterations between printings. e.g Different cover graphic, banner location or setting out, different text, different bindings or colourings of papers. Something that was physically changed deliberately is a different print run. Something that appears different as the result of an error (different cut sizes, ink shading, upside down binding, blank pages) is a printing anomily or error. How did I do?


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:In that case, I think we can define different printings as having or exhibitings distinctly different graphic or text alterations between printings. e.g Different cover graphic, banner location or setting out, different text, different bindings or colourings of papers. Something that was physically changed deliberately is a different print run. Something that appears different as the result of an error (different cut sizes, ink shading, upside down binding, blank pages) is a printing anomily or error. How did I do?


I agree....if an error does not affect the entire run (as in this case), it shouldn't be a separate printing. Did the 1E DMG error (Monster manual pages inadvertedly bound inside) affect the entire run of that printing, or was that just an anomaly of a few copies?

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:32 pm 
 

I'm with mbassoc...this is a printing error and not a seperate print and  shouldn't count as such.  
If this isn't the case you may as well end up with a different print number for every error that has occurred throughout a run.  A squirt of ink here or a cut too much there would make seperate printing which would be impossible to manage.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:31 pm 
 

:oops:  :oops:  Actually, I was the one that started the whole 3rd printing thing. :oops:  :oops:  I'm with Mars now. He talks more sense than I do. :lol:


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:35 pm 
 

Hummm... Interesting. In coins, a defective strike is often more collectible. Doesn't seem like defective print jobs share the same fate.

Inks would likely be the same (doubt if any custom ones would have been used), so the only real difference would be the plates (if any - digital presses don't use them) and the press itself.

I'd be inclined to go with Printer A vs. Printer B distinction if one needs to be made at all. Technically they could be considered two printings. Use an 'X' and 'X+' distinction maybe?

  

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Post Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:56 pm 
 

But I still go back to there being a small splurge of ink in one copy on one page...does that make a seperate printing?

  

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Post Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:52 pm 
 

SimperingToad wrote:Technically they could be considered two printings. Use an 'X' and 'X+' distinction maybe?


I think the problem that remains is that it is unclear if it is possible to discern between items that were printed by each printer.

Defects in paper products seems (more times than not) to hurt the value of the item rather than enhance it.  It could be that printing errors occur so frequently that they are not really rare or that in a lot of cases, "printing errors" could be easily forged.  Also, in the world of legal tender, the quality control of what gets out is much higher than in the publishing industry so when an error does get through, it is more significant.

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:32 am 
 

Perhaps if there is an identifiable printing error that has run through a number of copies then this should count as a printing run.  This leads on to what Mars has been saying.

This cutting error in  DCC #12.5 will be very difficult to identify and so shouldn't count as a printing run.

Whereas the MM pages in the DMG are easily identifiable and should count as a seperate print.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:22 am 
 

What about if you had thirty copies cut a different height and with different blue on the maps?


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:52 am 
 

It may be possible to distinguish between the two. Even with the same inks and plates, different pressmen have different eyes for color or ink coverage may be different, so one may be 'lighter' or 'more magenta/yellow/whatever' than the other. You would need a bunch of copies from each to examine for that difference and if it was consistent throughout the run, however.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:11 am 
 

I've lined a few of the 12.5s up together:

4 'non special' editions
2 copies of the 'Gencon specials' (purchased there for me & a friend) &
4 of the 'post-Gencon specials.' (purchased at 3 different times)

Size difference between 2 of the 'post-Gencon specials' and the 2 purchased at Gencon is 4mms.

Size difference for Gencon Specials purchased after Gencon is as Mars has stated - approx 9mm. (1 copy 9mm, and 1 copy 8mm taller, than the other 2).

Colour difference between the post-Gencon specials - None that I can notice.

Colour difference between the Gencon specials and post-Gencon specials - Gencon has very slightly lighter colours. Corner banner wording just that very little bit crisper.

Interestingly, one of the 4 non-Gencon editions appears very slightly lighter than the others (still same size/dimensions etc). It has been kept in exactly the same conditions as the others (boarded and bagged in a drawer) so difference can't be put down to fading. It is an extremely small difference in shade, though only noticable when looked at closely next to the other 3. It's also 1am and I'm a little tired. :wink:

From looking at all of them, the colour differences are only really noticeable when you are studying copies together and I wouldn't be able to tell through photos/scans etc, particularly on EBay.

Though I can understand the argument around different printers equalling different prints, I would agree with others in saying it would probably be best just leaving the 2 'Special' printings as Gencon and Post-Gencon.

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:18 pm 
 

Adder has looked at 10 copies with at least three printings that he can see plus at least another anomaly.  Making 4 printings minimum.  This is from one person with them in front of him.  I have a copy of #12.5 and there is no way whatsoever that I would be able to tell one from the other.  Give me a large number of DMG from every printing and, given instruction, I would be able to sort the into order.  I would not be able to do the same with #12.5.  To be a printing they have to be clearly identifiable.  #12.5 isn't.  I have one copy...no idea what printing it is until I have several in front of me.  This is  wrong and they shouldn't be different printings. It is a printing if it is clearly identifiable.

Gencon has very slightly lighter colours. Corner banner wording just that very little bit crisper.


These are not objective and cannot be used for a definition of an individual printing.
 
This thread will more than likely decide whether #12.5 has more than one printing or not.  There is  only one printing.  How will somebody selling an item know which printing it is that they are selling? With #12.5 it is impossible and so it has to stay as one printing.

And by the way...thanks Adder you have provided useful info.....do you think #12.5 can be seperated into easily identifiable objective printings?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:37 pm 
 

simonmwh wrote:With #12.5 it is impossible and so it has to stay as one printing.

content different on gencon printing as said before + brendons note. DMG w/MM page backs also not visible on cover but still valid printing
http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 7&start=50

tacojohn4547 wrote:
The majority of the differences between the two printings, which will become apparent if you read the module and refer back to the dungeon's map, occur on the 2-page spread map that is laid out on the inside of the removable cover.

When we were working through the 1E conversion, the author Harley Stroh and I went back to his original manuscript and added back in the five rooms that were edited out of (excluded from) the final 3.5 version. Those additional rooms begin with room 1-14 and continue through room 1-18. In the body of the module text, then, we renumbered the rooms beginning with room 1-14. So, room 1-14 in the 3.5 E version became 1-19 in the 1E version. That renumbering is consistent with both printings.

Where the differences between the two 1E versions crops up is that the cartographer missed renumbering the last four rooms on the 1E map. So, on the true first printing version, there are two each of the following rooms on the map: 1-17, 1-18 and 1-19. Plus, there is a room 1-18A when that room should have been room 1-23A to match the module text.

On the second printing version, the map renumbering has been corrected and matches the module text.

Beyond that, there are a few typos that were caught in the module text, but they were few and far between. I think Joseph was going to correct the typos in the second printing 1E version. I honestly haven't checked on these personally as they were very minor and didn't affect the playout of the adventure whatsoever.

I did check the credits page and the d20 license page, to see if Joseph had added a "second printing" anywhere. I did not find any such distinguishing verbiage.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:36 pm 
 

do you think #12.5 can be seperated into easily identifiable objective printings?


Would definitely agree with Rakeesh, changes as per tacojohn's notes. (I should have included these on previous comment  :oops: something about 'seeing the wood for the trees?', was just concentrating on covers)

Easiest way to check printings:

1st print - Non Gencon - no 'yellow' border on cover
2nd print - Gencon Special - 'yellow' border - this print has duplicated room numbers on left side of inside cover map
3rd print - Post-Gencon Special - 'yellow' border - correction to room numbers.

Quick question to a seller based on above should sort out one which it is.

Being able to differentiate between print runs on 'Post-Gencon Special' runs - IMO practically impossible. :cry:

Picture confirming/illustrating:
Image

'Gencon Special' is on the right - 'Post Gencon Special' is on the left

Hope this helps to clarify


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