Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions • Page 18 • Collecting General

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General - Non TSR

Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
	Page 18 of 37 • 1 2 3 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ... 35 36 37

Author

goodmangames
Active Collector

Posts: 18
Joined: Feb 24, 2007
Last Visit: Jan 09, 2010

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:22 pm

The first run of the 1E version of DCC #12.5, for Gen Con, was done with a printer I'll call Printer A. Printer A did a decent job on the Gen Con products, and I asked them to do a second run to fulfill the online portion. Printer A delivered that second run in a defective condition. A small portion was salvageable, and went out to fill a limited number of orders, but most of the run was unacceptable. Those copies were destroyed and Printer A promised to deliver replacements. Their replacement run was delivered several weeks later and was largely sub-par as well. At that point I stopped working with Printer A and sent the job to Printer B, who produced the balance of the orders. So there were two printers and a total of four runs involved, if I remember correctly.

Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com

JohnGaunt
Sage Collector

Posts: 2332
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Last Visit: Aug 27, 2017
Location: Shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:32 pm

goodmangames wrote:The first run of the 1E version of DCC #12.5, for Gen Con, was done with a printer I'll call Printer A. Printer A did a decent job on the Gen Con products, and I asked them to do a second run to fulfill the online portion. Printer A delivered that second run in a defective condition. A small portion was salvageable, and went out to fill a limited number of orders, but most of the run was unacceptable. Those copies were destroyed and Printer A promised to deliver replacements. Their replacement run was delivered several weeks later and was largely sub-par as well. At that point I stopped working with Printer A and sent the job to Printer B, who produced the balance of the orders. So there were two printers and a total of four runs involved, if I remember correctly.

. . . and the print-run junkies start jonesin' for some 12.5 . . .

Mars
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6161
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 09, 2024
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:16 pm

JohnGaunt wrote: . . . and the print-run junkies start jonesin' for some 12.5 . . .

I think we need a solid definition for what we want to define as a print run.

Rakeesh sah Tarna
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1107
Joined: Dec 04, 2005
Last Visit: Mar 15, 2016

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:37 pm

Mars wrote:I think we need a solid definition for what we want to define as a print run.

different content in gencon 12.5 with errors fixed after sounds better but still interest in printings thank you for information

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8027
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 18, 2024
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:48 am

Mars wrote:
I think we need a solid definition for what we want to define as a print run.

From what Joe has said, IMO there are only really two: Gencon, and post Gencon. Anything besides that seems to be splitting hairs, especially since it will be impossible to definitively separate Print Run Crappy from Print Run Good after Gencon. Getting rulers out to measure the size seems silly as there are no other attributes to compare; besides, Joe states that not ALL the bad print run were of sub-par quality, so it is definitively impossible to separate the runs.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

gyg
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1921
Joined: Mar 26, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 18, 2024
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:54 am

Badmike wrote:
Anything besides that seems to be splitting hairs,
Mike B.

But surely that's what we do best

Seriously though - Mike is right here IMO, 2 it is.

You can never have too much of something you didn't need in the first place.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6994
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2024
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:54 am

In that case, I think we can define different printings as having or exhibitings distinctly different graphic or text alterations between printings. e.g Different cover graphic, banner location or setting out, different text, different bindings or colourings of papers. Something that was physically changed deliberately is a different print run. Something that appears different as the result of an error (different cut sizes, ink shading, upside down binding, blank pages) is a printing anomily or error. How did I do?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8027
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 18, 2024
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 am

mbassoc2003 wrote:In that case, I think we can define different printings as having or exhibitings distinctly different graphic or text alterations between printings. e.g Different cover graphic, banner location or setting out, different text, different bindings or colourings of papers. Something that was physically changed deliberately is a different print run. Something that appears different as the result of an error (different cut sizes, ink shading, upside down binding, blank pages) is a printing anomily or error. How did I do?

I agree....if an error does not affect the entire run (as in this case), it shouldn't be a separate printing. Did the 1E DMG error (Monster manual pages inadvertedly bound inside) affect the entire run of that printing, or was that just an anomaly of a few copies?

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

simonmwh
Prolific Collector

Posts: 212
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Last Visit: Apr 09, 2024
Location: Arundel, UK

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:32 pm

I'm with mbassoc...this is a printing error and not a seperate print and shouldn't count as such.
If this isn't the case you may as well end up with a different print number for every error that has occurred throughout a run. A squirt of ink here or a cut too much there would make seperate printing which would be impossible to manage.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6994
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2024
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:31 pm

Actually, I was the one that started the whole 3rd printing thing. :oops:

I'm with Mars now. He talks more sense than I do. :lol:

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

SimperingToad
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1372
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Last Visit: Jul 01, 2020
Location: My Pad

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:35 pm

Hummm... Interesting. In coins, a defective strike is often more collectible. Doesn't seem like defective print jobs share the same fate.

Inks would likely be the same (doubt if any custom ones would have been used), so the only real difference would be the plates (if any - digital presses don't use them) and the press itself.

I'd be inclined to go with Printer A vs. Printer B distinction if one needs to be made at all. Technically they could be considered two printings. Use an 'X' and 'X+' distinction maybe?

simonmwh
Prolific Collector

Posts: 212
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Last Visit: Apr 09, 2024
Location: Arundel, UK

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:56 pm

But I still go back to there being a small splurge of ink in one copy on one page...does that make a seperate printing?

Mars
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 6161
Joined: May 03, 2003
Last Visit: Apr 09, 2024
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:52 pm

SimperingToad wrote:Technically they could be considered two printings. Use an 'X' and 'X+' distinction maybe?

I think the problem that remains is that it is unclear if it is possible to discern between items that were printed by each printer.

Defects in paper products seems (more times than not) to hurt the value of the item rather than enhance it. It could be that printing errors occur so frequently that they are not really rare or that in a lot of cases, "printing errors" could be easily forged. Also, in the world of legal tender, the quality control of what gets out is much higher than in the publishing industry so when an error does get through, it is more significant.

simonmwh
Prolific Collector

Posts: 212
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Last Visit: Apr 09, 2024
Location: Arundel, UK

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:32 am

Perhaps if there is an identifiable printing error that has run through a number of copies then this should count as a printing run. This leads on to what Mars has been saying.

This cutting error in DCC #12.5 will be very difficult to identify and so shouldn't count as a printing run.

Whereas the MM pages in the DMG are easily identifiable and should count as a seperate print.

mbassoc2003
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6994
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 19, 2024
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:22 am

What about if you had thirty copies cut a different height and with different blue on the maps?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

SimperingToad
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1372
Joined: Nov 03, 2008
Last Visit: Jul 01, 2020
Location: My Pad

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:52 am

It may be possible to distinguish between the two. Even with the same inks and plates, different pressmen have different eyes for color or ink coverage may be different, so one may be 'lighter' or 'more magenta/yellow/whatever' than the other. You would need a bunch of copies from each to examine for that difference and if it was consistent throughout the run, however.

AdderMcOne
Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 656
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Last Visit: Nov 16, 2023
Location: Perth, Australia

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:11 am

I've lined a few of the 12.5s up together:

4 'non special' editions
2 copies of the 'Gencon specials' (purchased there for me & a friend) &
4 of the 'post-Gencon specials.' (purchased at 3 different times)

Size difference between 2 of the 'post-Gencon specials' and the 2 purchased at Gencon is 4mms.

Size difference for Gencon Specials purchased after Gencon is as Mars has stated - approx 9mm. (1 copy 9mm, and 1 copy 8mm taller, than the other 2).

Colour difference between the post-Gencon specials - None that I can notice.

Colour difference between the Gencon specials and post-Gencon specials - Gencon has very slightly lighter colours. Corner banner wording just that very little bit crisper.

Interestingly, one of the 4 non-Gencon editions appears very slightly lighter than the others (still same size/dimensions etc). It has been kept in exactly the same conditions as the others (boarded and bagged in a drawer) so difference can't be put down to fading. It is an extremely small difference in shade, though only noticable when looked at closely next to the other 3. It's also 1am and I'm a little tired. :wink:

From looking at all of them, the colour differences are only really noticeable when you are studying copies together and I wouldn't be able to tell through photos/scans etc, particularly on EBay.

Though I can understand the argument around different printers equalling different prints, I would agree with others in saying it would probably be best just leaving the 2 'Special' printings as Gencon and Post-Gencon.

Brendon

"Don't tempt me, I can resist anything but temptation"

simonmwh
Prolific Collector

Posts: 212
Joined: Mar 12, 2007
Last Visit: Apr 09, 2024
Location: Arundel, UK

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:18 pm

Adder has looked at 10 copies with at least three printings that he can see plus at least another anomaly. Making 4 printings minimum. This is from one person with them in front of him. I have a copy of #12.5 and there is no way whatsoever that I would be able to tell one from the other. Give me a large number of DMG from every printing and, given instruction, I would be able to sort the into order. I would not be able to do the same with #12.5. To be a printing they have to be clearly identifiable. #12.5 isn't. I have one copy...no idea what printing it is until I have several in front of me. This is wrong and they shouldn't be different printings. It is a printing if it is clearly identifiable.

Gencon has very slightly lighter colours. Corner banner wording just that very little bit crisper.

These are not objective and cannot be used for a definition of an individual printing.

This thread will more than likely decide whether #12.5 has more than one printing or not. There is only one printing. How will somebody selling an item know which printing it is that they are selling? With #12.5 it is impossible and so it has to stay as one printing.

And by the way...thanks Adder you have provided useful info.....do you think #12.5 can be seperated into easily identifiable objective printings?

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General - Non TSR

Page 18 of 37 • 1 2 3 ... 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ... 35 36 37