Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions • Page 15 • Collecting General

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Dungeon Crawl Classics Questions/Opinions
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goatboy
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:52 pm

Badmike wrote:I agree. The look of 3E DCC modules was what had me. Now that the look has changed (and apparantly, Otus, Roslof, Dee and Holloway are dumped) I'm just not as interested.

At Gen Con I heard folks saying that Otus would be back. Don't know about Roslof or Holloway (and sadly, Dee, my favorite of the old school artists just seems a little "off" these days).

Guy Fullerton
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:00 pm

goatboy wrote:But the reverse to true, too, right? A great cover by Erol Otus is worthless is the adventure is crap.

Worthless? Nah. Like many others here, there are mechanically "icky" products I own purely because I like the way it looks, or because some of some equally superficial/nostalgic factor.

I may not run/play those sorts of things, but I might draw inspiration from them (especially from the art!) and I'll most certainly collect them!

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:54 pm

islestrike wrote:
I'm curious about your whole soup analogy here. Given that the look of the cans have changed, in what way does this affect the soup inside? How does the change in cover design affect the quality of the adventure itself? Are you saying because they are now written for 4E they are not as good, or are you saying they are not as good because the writing has somehow changed for the worse to go along with the new look?

For the record I don't exactly like the new look either, but apart from the mechanical and design philosophies of 3E vs 4E I don't see the adventure quality necessarily being different. i.e. if they were bad modules under 3E they are still going to be bad modules under 4E, and likewise if they were good modules then they are probably still good modules now regardless of the cans they come packaged in. How are they now the same chicken noodle offered by everyone else? The game has changed that is for sure but it is the same stable of authors writing for their Aerth campaign setting, that hasn't changed. They are just not 1E collectible (if they ever were that) as they used to be with the old cans. Personally I bought the old DCCs because I thought they were some really good adventures (for the most part) AND I liked the way they were presented in a very reminiscent 1E style. Now that half that equation is different it is a good excuse to stop buying them. Truth be told even if the look remained the same I would have chosen #52 as the cutoff and stopped there. The market has changed since DCC first started coming out, with some smaller publishers putting out their 1E creations. True most of it is print on demand, but that wasn't even an option before. In 2002 Idylls of the Rat King looked very 1E, now in 2008 there are real 1E modules to purchase if you want that sort of thing.

Cheers!

The cover is a good warning of what is inside. It sets the ground, helps to create an atmosphere, but it also speaks volumes about a change in attitude and direction for the DCC line.

Now that I have had a chance to go through DCC#53 a bit and look through #54 and #55 I am even more appalled at the change in the DCC line. The artwork is sparce, the stat blocks for creatures and traps eats up the pages of the adventure by what looks to be 20-25%. The format has been changed dramaticly.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words and with the old DCC line the pictures fit beautifully into a 1e style campaign.

My plans for my DCC collection have been to index them, revise them for 1e and review them. I wasn't going to go past DCC#52 but it will be interesting to set the old DCC line with the new and do a comparison.

So not only has the outside of the cans been changed but the interior as well. Style and format to begin with, quality of the adventure will take longer to assess. I'm going through the 4e rulebooks at the moment but after I am good with the rules I will run through these new DCCs and see what they taste like...

The label says chicken soup, pop open the can and the inside looks like chicken soup, will it taste like chicken soup? Will it be good, bad or standard fare, I don't know yet, but it ain't no Jambalaya.

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:56 pm

Afraid of the Dark wrote:Worthless? Nah. Like many others here, there are mechanically "icky" products I own purely because I like the way it looks, or because some of some equally superficial/nostalgic factor.

I may not run/play those sorts of things, but I might draw inspiration from them (especially from the art!) and I'll most certainly collect them!

As a DM I change modules all around, steal bits and pieces of plot, character, tricks and traps from any source, write my own material quite a bit, but I have no hand for drawing. For the artwork was an invaluable resource outside of my capabilities.

The artwork of a module was worth as much or more to me than anything else about it.

simonmwh
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:09 pm

Goodman Games has choice. As a company their choice has to be towards making as much money as possible. They have to keep going with WOTC. If they don't they will cease to exist. I agree that the new mods don't look that great but without support or liscencing from WOTC Goodman would be nothing. Personally I don't like the new look but I know why they have done it and have no problem with this. The continued existence of Goodman is of benefit to all....like the 1E mods they may occasionally produce...and long may they last. :salut:

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:23 pm

simonmwh wrote:Goodman Games has choice. As a company their choice has to be towards making as much money as possible. They have to keep going with WOTC. If they don't they will cease to exist. I agree that the new mods don't look that great but without support or liscencing from WOTC Goodman would be nothing. Personally I don't like the new look but I know why they have done it and have no problem with this. The continued existence of Goodman is of benefit to all....like the 1E mods they may occasionally produce...and long may they last.

Actually I think WOTC has boned Goodman pretty hard. The success of 4e isn't a given, especially because Hasbro demands only big success from WOTC. If Paizo and other 3rd party companies split the market or even take too big a chunk of it from WOTC then we may see an end to 4e or a quick jump to something different from them, leaving 3rd party 4e publishers with their pants around their legs.

Without WOTC draconian license agreement we could have seen a continuation of the old DCC style and even system alongside 4e material and we may yet.

As consumers we have a voice both vocal and monetary. If we don't tell companies what we want and what we don't want then how will they ever get it right and print the things we gamers like?

Goodman is taking what they think is the most prosperous course and they may have been tired of the old 1e style line of DCC material anyway. That is their choice. But I think it is more of a gamble than they anticipated hence the intense reaction to criticism.

As a consumer I want to see 1e or 1e style material, otherwise Goodman games and the DCC line is useless to me.

simonmwh
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:35 pm

No two ways about it...WOTC has boned Goodman but what else will they do? There is money in it all round for them so they have to go that route. From our point of view it isn't good as the people here tend to be older and more used to the earlier versions of D & D. Things do move on. I want there to be unlimited releases of 1E style material but it will never happen........having said that......any ideas how much it costs to get a mod published? I know Goodman staff read this as do some ex-TSR peeps. There are enough people here to chip in.....would we break even? :?:

My point is that it is a very tricky thing to do to keeps an indy games company going and not something that most of us would have the courage to do. Goodman are doing what they have to do.

tacojohn4547
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:34 pm

simonmwh wrote:<<snip>>

I want there to be unlimited releases of 1E style material but it will never happen........having said that......any ideas how much it costs to get a mod published? I know Goodman staff read this as do some ex-TSR peeps. There are enough people here to chip in.....would we break even?

My point is that it is a very tricky thing to do to keeps an indy games company going and not something that most of us would have the courage to do. Goodman are doing what they have to do.

[using best Jedi Master voice]

Patience, my young padawan, patience.

[end using best Jedi Master voice]

All joking aside, I too would like to see a steady flow of (O)AD&D adventures released for the forseeable future. My regular group prefers AD&D over all other games, and having a steady flow of newly released (O)AD&D adventures available is very appealing to this time-constrained DM.

A number of small RPG publishers have released numerous (O)AD&D adventures over the last 3 years. You all know the publishers by name: Expeditious Retreat Press, Pied Piper Publishing, Goblinoid Games, Ronin Arts, and Goodman Games, to name the more familiar ones. However, as has been suggested in numerous messageboards, the actual demand for such releases from buying customers numbers in the low hundreds. A case in point is the recently-released Saga of the Rat King, the print run for which was been reported here at the Acaeum as being 300 copies. And copies are still available.

I am presently doing some hands-on research to see what the cost model would look like to do a print release of a typical AD&D module. I can tell you that the printing costs by themselves are all over the chart, from as low as $2 per copy to well over $6 per copy. The other costs that factor into a module's release (artwork, writing and development, editing, layout, not to mention marketing and distribution) are likewise all over the chart.

Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, from the research that I've done to this point is whether the number of actual units sold will be sufficient to cover not only the complete cost of the first module, but will also provide some funding for the next release. In other words, will the first module pay for itself and provide (to one degree or another) for a self-sustaining and self-funding enterprise?.

If the answer is a yes, then there's viability. If the answer is no, the first release doesn't generate enough sales to pay for itself and part of the next one, then the enterprise is doomed to be a short-lived cash suck on the principals involved.

While I don't really have anything concrete to talk about at this stage, I am continuing with the research and am encouraged by my findings to date.
If this comes together, please be asured that you all will be among the first to know.

Jon

tacojohn4547

http://black-blade-publishing.com

goatboy
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:44 pm

TacoJohn is going rogue? I have to confess that I'd get in line for more mexican goodness.

smarmy1
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:40 pm

DCC #30: Vault of the Dragon Kings Tournament Edition (Box Set)

http://www.rpgshop.com/default/dcc-30-vault-of-the-dragon-kings-tournament-edition-1.html

Hi all,

I know the DCC #30 box sets have been rather difficult to locate recently, but RPGShop.com has a few of these left at their distributor ($67.29 + shipping). I ordered one set last Thursday and it arrived today in minty, shrink wrapped condition. (And yes, I'm not going to open it!

The owner of the store was very courteous and even confirmed that the box sets were in stock with his distributor before I placed my order. Anyway, thought others here might want to pick up the deal while it lasts.

Get 'em while they're hot!

Hello Mrs. Cleaver, Theodore.

Gee, Mrs. Cleaver ... That certainly is a lovely dress.

Ak'Ptui
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:12 pm

tacojohn4547 wrote: ...However, as has been suggested in numerous messageboards, the actual demand for such releases from buying customers numbers in the low hundreds. A case in point is the recently-released Saga of the Rat King, the print run for which was been reported here at the Acaeum as being 300 copies. And copies are still available.

...

Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, from the research that I've done to this point is whether the number of actual units sold will be sufficient to cover not only the complete cost of the first module, but will also provide some funding for the next release. In other words, will the first module pay for itself and provide (to one degree or another) for a self-sustaining and self-funding enterprise?.

....

One thing you should remember to factor into your analysis is that of those 300 (or whatever title you choose to look at), how many of those were multiple copies bought by obsessive collectors or speculative dealers hoarding them away for the future? What you really want to know for your enterprise is can you count on 300 individuals to make successive purchases over time? A sale is a sale but once the sheen of collectability or rarity wears off are they going to continue buying 2 or more copies of each title?

Just anecdotally I see it takes a long time for a 1E title to sellout when there is no perceived collectability or rarity. Look at last year's Saga of the Witch Queen. If the run was 300 we're in trouble because it has been over a year. Maybe it was more like 500 so that is why it is still around. Either way if there were a healthy audience of 1E gamers you would have thought it would have been greedily snatched up and sold out by now. Another publisher with lots of ancedotal evidence is PPP. The Cairn of the Skeleton King was available for the greater part of 2 years, and that's a title that received a lot of hype and good press when it came out, along with individuals buying multiple copies. It only finally sold out (my opinion) when Bottled City came out and buyers of that became interested in going back for the previous two titles.

I think you have the right idea though. There is probably anywhere between 300-500 people you can sell to. How can you corall them all at once into buying your title and thus start a self-sustaining line of titles? Again ancedotally I see gamers as a group generally like a regular release schedule. Look at Paizo Pathfinder and Goodman's DCC line as examples. Would these even be selling in the same number if they were ad hoc here and there and not coming out consistently or on time? It seems gamers of a certain rules system are more likely to converge on your product when a) they can see you already put out a few and/or b) there is a high likelihood and certainty that you will continue to put out more in the future. So more critical is that the first 3-4 planned titles actually make it to print, and they make it out on time. Hope to see this come about.

Cheers!

goatboy
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:47 pm

From the Goodman site:

Goodman Games is partnering with game stores worldwide to offer a special deal to fans. As we move through the last of our 3.5 backstock, we have made it available to retailers at a special discount so they can pass the savings on to you!

Between now and December 31, 2008 in participating stores, you can save 50% on our 3.5 DCC modules. At the same time, you can get a free PDF e-book when you purchase one of our new 4E adventure modules!

Participation is subject to the discretion of individual stores, so please check with your local retailer to confirm they're taking part. Look for the poster at right in your local store!

The following retailers have confirmed they're taking part:

Black Diamond Games, 1950 Market Street, Suite E, Concord, CA, 925-681-0600

Castle Perilous Games, 207 West Main, Carbondale, IL, 800-297-2160

Compleat Strategist, 11 E. 33rd St., New York, NY, 212-685-3880

Game Kastle, 1350 Coleman Ave., Santa Clara, CA, 408-243-GAME

Gnome Games, 2160 Ridge Road, Green Bay, WI, 920-499-4263

Noble Knight Games, 2242 Kennedy Rd, Janesville, WI

Lost Harbor Games & Hobbies, 61 Southwick Road, Westfield, MA, 413-564-0070

Titan Games & Music, 637 Capital Ave SW, Battle Creek, MI, 269-963-3773

Walt's Cards, 7620 German Hill Road, Baltimore MD, 410-288-7044

[/b]

simonmwh
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Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:21 pm

smarmy1 wrote:DCC #30: Vault of the Dragon Kings Tournament Edition (Box Set)

http://www.rpgshop.com/default/dcc-30-vault-of-the-dragon-kings-tournament-edition-1.html

Website says sold out

PaulKM
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 6:22 am

Quick questions: are the colour illustrations only present in the first printing of #13 or did it extend to the second printing?

If they are present in more than one printing are there any differences between the two (e.g. the page numbers mention in thread above)?

Last, if there are multiple colour illustrated printings are they all "glossy" as mentioned in the thread above?

Best,

Paul

Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe...we are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:23 am

PaulKM wrote:Quick questions: are the colour illustrations only present in the first printing of #13 or did it extend to the second printing?

If they are present in more than one printing are there any differences between the two (e.g. the page numbers mention in thread above)?

Last, if there are multiple colour illustrated printings are they all "glossy" as mentioned in the thread above?

Best,

Paul

I believe that according to the Goodman site the color printings are all glossy and only 1st print. There is a thread on the Goodman Games forums that talks a bit about printings.

PaulKM
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:25 am

I was wondering what a fair price for a #30 Vault of the Dragon Kings, Tourney Ed. with big slit in the shrink-wrap--on the bottom--would be worth?

The SW is tight, and the box is perfect, but I"m wondering how much this damage to the SW reduces its value?

Thanks.

Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, and for once I'm inclined to believe...we are indeed drifting into the arena of the unwell.

benjoshua
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:09 am

PaulKM wrote:I was wondering what a fair price for a #30 Vault of the Dragon Kings, Tourney Ed. with big slit in the shrink-wrap--on the bottom--would be worth?

The SW is tight, and the box is perfect, but I"m wondering how much this damage to the SW reduces its value?

Thanks.

There's no telling really, but if I like my stuff shrink-wrapped, then having a big slit in it probably means I don't want it. I am guessing that if a personal is particular enough to want it shrink-wrapped then they want the shrink in good shape. I realize I'm not helping much, but I'd say that if the shrink is damaged, it's almost like it isn't in shrink. I'm no expert on this, and it's just an educated(?) guess. It's still a good set and still in good shape, so it's still worth a lot especially since they seem to be sold out everywhere.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

dbartman
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Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:29 pm

In general, having a slit or tear in the SW does not decrease the value significantly, unless the slit or tear is big enough that the item could have been removed. Then the SW has lost its value. The condition of the item is a biggest factor, if the slit or tear allowed the item to be damaged.

So condition is paramount, SW is an enhancement that ensures that the item has never been touched/opened. SW does not guarantee condition.

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